Discriminating against yourself

[patrickbeverley]

Here's something that really annoys me:

When people make discriminatory comments, seemingly in all seriousness, against social groups to which they themselves belong.

I started thinking about this because I read that Nik Cohn (a white man) says, in his book Triksta (where he gets inside the New Orleans hip hop scene), that all white people are racist on the inside. My immediate thought was that either he believes himself to be the only non-racist white guy, or he's justifying his own racism by saying all other white people are the same.

Now, I haven't read the book, so I don't know the context. But this reminded me of some other things that piss me off, along the same lines.

Men who say "all men are bastards" is one. Now I've been guilty of this in the past, but on reflection it's a stupid thing to say: I don't seriously consider myself to be a bastard, and if I did, I wouldn't feel I could hide behind saying that all men are.

I also became extremely angry once when a woman told me she hated feminists. I know that's not the same as a woman hating women, but my instant reaction (patriarchal though it is) was to want to shout "don't you know what feminists did for you?"

It upsets me greatly when people discriminate against other perceived social groups as well, but at least then it's not so phoney. It's natural, if you're a white male, to feel shame over some of the things that have been done in your name, but don't pretend to think of yourself as a bastard because of it.

[Hegemonicretribution]

Well the woman that does not like feminists does not surprise me for two main reasons:

• Many women don't have an accurate view of feminism
• Some women feel that they would be better of in patriachial society

The first reason is fairly common, and women feel that radical feminists have increased the discrimination that women face, or at least that radical feminists (the only group they recognise) area group that deserves to be discriminated against. This is actually a view of many of my female friends, and all the females (except when talking technically) in my sociology class.

The second reason was actually I response I never expected to hear, but I have heard from one or two female friends, who it has to be said, are some of the more attractive/lazy ones. It isn't ideals of equality or anything taken into account here, it is really that they feel they should be treated as princesses, or that "gentlemen" should make a comeback. The economic and social reality of such an idea doesn't really matter, because I think it is just an imagined preferrence, and not something acted upon, but it is still a little worrying.

Possibly the most equal-minded, and yet most discriminatory acquintance of mine claims to hate everyone, and discriminate against everyone and everything as they see fit, including themselves. I know this is just an image (and a jokey one at that) but it is interesting to watch.

Yes I feel ashamed about what whites and males have done in the past, but I feel this way about groups than I don't fit into. I am an individual, and failure to recognise that is discrimination on the part of the person who doesn't see. We can only do what we see best.

[TC]

Men who say "all men are bastards" is one. Now I've been guilty of this in the past, but on reflection it's a stupid thing to say: I don't seriously consider myself to be a bastard, and if I did, I wouldn't feel I could hide behind saying that all men are.

Actually, i think you have it wrong on this one. Its not that guys who say this are generally hostile towards men while thinking themselves to be, somehow, an exception to the rule...

But rather, they *know* that they're a bastard, so they blame it on the fact they're a guy instead of taking responsibility for it. Besides, if all men are bastards, then they're not so bad for being a bastard are they?

The same goes for guys who say "all men lie" "all men cheat" "all men want to sleep around"...it actually means "I lie, i cheat, i want to sleep around, but hey, don't blame me, i'm a guy we're all like that (and don't think you can do any better&#33"


Or alternatively theres the "men are bastards" out of sympathy type remarks:

guy friend:"Hi whats up"
platonic girl friend: "My boyfriend was-a-bastard/lied/cheated/sleped-around"
guy friend: "I'm sorry...men are bastards" :angry:
platonic girl friend: "Oh thanks...now i feel sooooooooo much better" <_<


Its not actually discrimination because the guy saying it doesn&#39;t actually think that way of *all* men.

also became extremely angry once when a woman told me she hated feminists. I know that&#39;s not the same as a woman hating women, but my instant reaction (patriarchal though it is) was to want to shout "don&#39;t you know what feminists did for you?"

...She doesn&#39;t really hate feminists in general...no one who isn&#39;t a member of a hard-rightwing ultra-orthodox religious group hates feminists in general...


...what she actually hates are radical feminists who have somehow managed to convince people that they have something to do with the suffragettes, the 20th century socialist feminists, 1960s reproductive rights activists, etc. Whenever you hear someone (who isn&#39;t a mormon, a shia muslim, or a southern baptist) say "I hate feminists" they&#39;re not thinking about Susan B. Anthony as much as Andrea Dworkin.


It really drives me crazy though when guys who want to support "feminism" think that they&#39;re somehow helping out and absolving themselves of their straight-white-male guilt by defending radical feminism as if it was the only type or the only contemporary current in feminism while totally ignoring socialist feminist and pro-sex feminist positions on the same issues. (although...i think i may have brought this up a few dozen times before so i&#39;ll leave it at that for now).

The second reason was actually I response I never expected to hear, but I have heard from one or two female friends, who it has to be said, are some of the more attractive/lazy ones. It isn&#39;t ideals of equality or anything taken into account here, it is really that they feel they should be treated as princesses, or that "gentlemen" should make a comeback. The economic and social reality of such an idea doesn&#39;t really matter, because I think it is just an imagined preferrence, and not something acted upon, but it is still a little worrying.

I think its actually a little different. Theres definately a certain &#39;sexism&#39; in expecting guys to treat you

When you&#39;re dating people casually and don&#39;t have a real emotional investment in them yet, you&#39;re deciding if you prefer them to other potential partners.

Lots of guys will offer, even insist, on paying for everything on dates. When you know that you can get guys who want to pay for everything and it becomes a sort of expectation...And besides some girls like guys who want to take care of them because 1. its a way of reassuring you that he&#39;s into you and wants to make an effort and 2. because theres something kindof masculine and sexy about acting that way...

And if its a choice between someone who does extra for you and someone who doesn&#39;t, if you otherwise like them both...its not really sexism to prefer the guys who try harder, its just picking the better available option.


Its not fair...it does disadvantage guys i think...but getting people to be attracted to you isn&#39;t a right or an entitlement. Guys can refuse to ask girls out, be the one to &#39;make the first move&#39; to use the cliche, and pay for more than their fair share, if they think its not fair, but given that they&#39;re effectively in competition with other guys who are willing to do all of those things, you can hardly blame girls who respond to it because its just easier being with someone who you don&#39;t have to work as hard for.

[PRC-UTE]

I hope you keep bringing it up, this puritanism&#39;s got to go.

[Body Count]

I notice this alot in the black community.

People making fun of others for being "too dark", or having "nappy hair"...its absolutely ridiculous.

Some even go as far as to ADMIT mental inferiority with comments like "Whites got book smarts, we got street smarts" or "Whites do good in school but we are better athletes".

Self hating nonsense.

[Hegemonicretribution]

Originally posted by Body Count@Apr 24 2006, 08:34 PM
Some even go as far as to ADMIT mental inferiority with comments like "Whites got book smarts, we got street smarts" or "Whites do good in school but we are better athletes".

Self hating nonsense.

Not necessarily; It could be simply affirming the fact that white people tend to have a better oppurtunity towards education, and often receive a better "quality." Also, it could be highlighting the fact that the system itself is based racially and culturally.

Of course these are not hard and fast rules, but they exist insofar as race is linked to class; hence discrimination.

what she actually hates are radical feminists who have somehow managed to convince people that they have something to do with the suffragettes, the 20th century socialist feminists, 1960s reproductive rights activists, etc.

I agree that they are talking about radical feminists, as in my post, but not completely about this^ Some of the more radical feminist, sepratists and even Greer denounced the suffragettes for being female appologists. You got to love the non-realists however :P

[Black Dagger]

It really drives me crazy though when guys who want to support "feminism" think that they&#39;re somehow helping out and absolving themselves of their straight-white-male guilt by defending radical feminism as if it was the only type or the only contemporary current in feminism while totally ignoring socialist feminist and pro-sex feminist positions on the same issues.

Hi&#33;

See this is something that i don&#39;t get, you call me for example a &#39;rad fem anarchist boy&#39; but when you say &#39;rad fem&#39; you&#39;re talking about people who would regard me as a sexist&#33;

Queer theory and feminism go hand-in-hand, radical conceptions of sexuality and the de-construction of gender (gender roles etc), but queer perspectives are in majority very pro-sex (myself included) where as &#39;rad fem&#39; is by large not &#39;sex-positive&#39; feminism. Moreover, unlike what you would probably term &#39;rad fem&#39;, i don&#39;t conceptualise patriarchy as the key to oppression in society. Capitalism is the biggest hurdle facing people in the world today, and acts as an enabler for a wide range of social prejudices, patriarchy included. This does not mean that i don&#39;t regard patriarchy or sexism as major issues within society, on the contrary sexism, heterosexism, racism and so forth are fundamental roadblocks to building WC unity and struggling against these prejudices is crucial to the success of any class revolution. Nevertheless, unlike many rad fems i don&#39;t place patriarchy above capitalism and the state as the biggest enemies of oppressed people.

Cut me some bloody slack&#33;

[apathy maybe]

I think that people can insult others of a similar group in society (the example above with black people). I also think that some people might even have been so "oppressed" and stereotyped by the society that they feel that they are worthless.

I don&#39;t know whether it should be called discrimination however.

Though, it would be possible to discriminate based on sex, gender etc. by someone of the same. A female manager giving a job to a male subordinate rather then a female one. I think that in the majority of cases like this, it would be society that was to blame, just like in the majority of discrimination cases.

[patrickbeverley]

Originally posted by TragicClown@Apr 24 2006, 08:06 PM
But rather, they *know* that they&#39;re a bastard, so they blame it on the fact they&#39;re a guy instead of taking responsibility for it. Besides, if all men are bastards, then they&#39;re not so bad for being a bastard are they?

I sort of meant that too. They&#39;re still idiots, no?

She doesn&#39;t really hate feminists in general

What she said was, "I hate feminists. They don&#39;t shave their armpits."

<_< Dear, oh dear.

It really drives me crazy though when guys who want to support "feminism" think that they&#39;re somehow helping out and absolving themselves of their straight-white-male guilt by defending radical feminism

I was defending feminism in general, because she, in theory, was attacking feminism in general, but come to think of it, I probably would support most of Andrea Dworkin&#39;s ideas as well as Susan B. Anthony&#39;s (and - to go British for a second - Sylvia Pankhurst&#39;s).

BodyCount

Some even go as far as to ADMIT mental inferiority with comments like "Whites got book smarts, we got street smarts"

In general, I think people who make this comment would consider "street smarts" a better thing to have, but I see your point.

The "men are bastards" thing was expanded on by a woman I know, who explained to me that men in fact fall into not one but two categories.

-The bastards
and
-The boring ones

She explained this in detail, before, as an afterthought, turning to me and saying "No offence".

Well, what else could I say? "None taken".