Zionism!

[Noah]

as this is my first post, I would like to send a big HELLO!! to all the members of this forum.

Halloo

My goal from joining this forum is to inlighting you about the zionist and there methods... and to prove to you that they are the inventors of terrorisim..

Kool, I'm glad you want to enlighten people and say the truth, there are many members who have studied the situation in depth.

I know that Zionism is indeed wrong and I know the outlines of the ideology and the situation there (as I am Arabic) however, some indepth sources would be appreciated.

[rouchambeau]

Zionism was a really cool movement before the Israeli State was established. Zionists basically turned swamps that no one was using into farms and did so in a very anarchistic manner.

[vox_populi]

This is what I've heard about Zionism:

It was founded by Jewish capitalists.
The goal of Zionism was to create a "clean" jewish state were the jewish bourgeoisie could invest without any competition. And another goal of the zionists was to fight the increasing socialist tendencies among jews.

Zionists call themself "The Jewish liberation front" but they have never fought anti-semitism. Zionists, just as anti-semitists, believe that jews can't live with any other people. Hence the requirement of a "clean" jewish state. Theodor Herzl even asked anti-semitists to help him move jews to Palestine. He also made a pact with the russian tsar's minister Plehve, who organised the bloody following of jews in russia.

The Nazis organised a boot camp for zionist colonizators, and in 1944 the nazi Eichmann and the zionists leader of Hungary Kastner worked together. Kastner helped to hide the extermination camps existance and in return Eichmann let 1. 687 rich jews to leave the country.
At the end of WWII the zionists were involved in stopping Roosevelt from accepting 150. 000 jewish refugees, and forcing them to move to Palestine.


I don't know how much is correct and I would appreciate is someone could point out possible mistakes.

EDIT:I just wanted to add that in 1975 the UN condemned zionism as a racist movement. And so did UN's women conferens in 1980. Isrealian Zionists has borrowed alot of methods from the Nazi's

[Nasser^Egy]

well
as i am one of the middle east's residents,i can see zionism translated into barbarian killing and real terrorism against palestinians
i think zionism is a good theory
but for gangs

[Mariam]

Hi Maitham!!

Well.. Zionisim is a political movement, idealogy, and a national movement for the Jewish people to establish their promised land of Israel in Palestine, that began in the late 19th century.
It's not a part of the Jewish religion, but somehow is parasitic upon it. Therefor, not all Jew are Zionists.. thougt it combains Jews togather regardless of their ideologies, so they can could be to the left or to the right, they could be religious or seculas..it's all about working togather for their goals.
Although i live in the Middle East and I'm Arabic too, im not really conversant to this topic as i'm in Masonry.
So it would be great to enlighten us about it.

I'll be waiting for what you've got to say about it.

[LSD]

It was founded by Jewish capitalists.

Untrue.

For one thing, the number of Jewish capitalists was severly limited in the nineteenth century. Despite the enlightenment, antisemitism was very much alive and ascendant European nationalism made it very hard for Jews to gain significant positions of authority.

That is not to say that there were not rich Jews, just that they were the distinct minority. Furthemore, those Jews who were part of the bourgeoisie did not really have an interest in shaking up the status quo.

Especially in the ghettoized Jewish societies of nineteenth century europe, successful Jews were in a unique position. Since most Christian merchants were retiscent to deal with Jews directly, Jews of with means and contacts had a virtual lock on a market.

The creation of a "Jewish state" would require that they either relocate and begin again in a divided market, or stay where they were and lose most of the customers.

Needless to say, profit was the driving interest and most wealthy Jews were perfectly happy to stay where they were.

Jewish intellectuals, however, were different.

They had no financial investement in the status quo and were, rather, chiefly motivated by politics and ideology. Furthermore, their discrimination at the hands of Christian society was not counterbalanced by increased profits.

It was lawyers, teachers, and authors who really "founded" Zionism, and they did so as a secular movement. These were not the religious fanatics, they were all too busy waiting for the "Messiah" to get involved with "temporal" matters.

Rather, Zionism's "fathers" were largely agnostic or down-right atheistic Jews who saw a "Jewish homeland" as a nationalist solution to their dillema of identity.

Like many European "nations" of the time, many Jews were searching to identify themselves following the liberalism of the enlightenment. Religious adherance and belief no longer seemed sufficient, but something had to replace them.

Because of the antisemitism of the time, crystalized for most proto-Zionists in the Dreyfuss affair, non-religious Jews became convinced that for the Jewish "nation" to have parity with the great European ones, a definite territorial homeland would be nescessary.

Zionism was merely a Jewish version of European romantic nationalism, nothing more, nothing less.

The goal of Zionism was to create a "clean" jewish state were the jewish bourgeoisie could invest without any competition.

Again, completely untrue.

And another goal of the zionists was to fight the increasing socialist tendencies among jews.

More nonsense.

Many early Zionists were in fact socialists themselves, in one way or another. "Socialist" Zionism, or "Labour Zionism", was one of the most influencial strains of Zionism before the formation of the State of Israel.

Again, Zionism was not a primarily religious organization; it was mainly a secular nationalist one. Accordingly most early Zionists were not drawn to theocratic models, nor were they particularly impressed with European organizational structures.

The socialism of the utopians and even early Marxists, however, seemed to offer a distinct social model as well as appealing to the idealistic and romanticized notions of "community" that so many of the Zionists felt.

In fact, one of the main reasons why most Jewish religious organizations opposed Zionism was that it was too secular and socialist for their liking. They saw it as a threat to Jewish traditional living and bitterly opposed it.

Even today, fundamentalist Jews reject the State of Israel as they see it as a violation of "sacred prophesy".

Most zionists were intellectuals, not "rabbis" and so their movement tended to reflect the values of their class. People like Borochov, Ginsberg, and Gordon were all prominant Zionists, but also quite vocal in their socialistic leanings.

That the State of Israel, when created, was a bourgeois capitalist society is hardly surprising given the conditions of the time, but to claim that Zionism was "invented" to "fight socialism" is just plain wrong.

Zionists call themself "The Jewish liberation front" but they have never fought anti-semitism.

Well, that really depends on how one defines "fighting anti-semitism" doesn't it?

Certainly zionist organizations have opposed antisemitism throughout history. After all, the the Zionist Orgnazations was one of the first to condemn the Nazi government, and promimant Zionists in Germany were also quite active in condemning Nazi laws.

The thing is, though, that so-called "Zionist leaders" tended to be, like all "leaders", quite corruptable. And many did end up collaborating or colluding for their own personal bennefits.

This does not speak to the nature of Zionism as an ideology, however, it merely reaffirms the simple truth that power is inevitably corrosive.

Zionists, just as anti-semitists, believe that jews can't live with any other people. Hence the requirement of a "clean" jewish state.

Not exactly.

It wasn't so much about "not living with people" as it was about "national identiy".

Again, Zionism emerged out of the romantic nationalism of the nineteenth century. Zionists did not believe that all Jews "must" be kept seperate, rather that a "homeland" was needed to solidify Jewish "identity".

It was, actually, very similar to other nationalist movements of the period, such as that in Germany that ultimately led to Bismark's united German Empire. German Nationalists did not believe that they "could not live" with Frenchmen or Poles. But they did believe that Germans needed a "Germany" if they were going to "survive as a people".

It was much the same for the Zionists.

Theodor Herzl even asked anti-semitists to help him move jews to Palestine. He also made a pact with the russian tsar's minister Plehve, who organised the bloody following of jews in russia.

Absolutely true.

Herzl did indeed believe that he could use European antisemitism to help him in his cause. Whether he was correct or not is debatable, but these actions can hardly be used as signs of "duplicity" on behalf of "Zionist leaders".

For one thing, Herzl was just one man, and for another, his intentions have never been questioned.

Besides, there was a perverse kind of ironic logic in his actions. European nationalist racists did want to get rid of Jews and it was not beyond concieving that some of them might be willing to bankroll an effort at mass rellocation.

What you need to remember here is that these Jews would have, almost universally, been delighted if Herzl's plan had gone through. They were hardly "integrated" where they were and would have easily prefered antisemitic rellocation to continued antisemitic oppression.

The Nazis organised a boot camp for zionist colonizators

Nonsense.

What's a "boot camp for zionists" anyways?

And while the Nazis did briefly plan to set up a Jewish "homeland" in Madagasar of all places, the idea was never realized and ultimately extermination was selected as a cheaper and more effective method of elimination.

It is undeniable that some Zionists collaborated with Nazi authorities, just like some Russians and some Ukrainians and some Frenchmen and even some Americans did.

Whenever someone has cash or power, there's someone willing to follow their oders. That's just the nature of class society.

in 1944 the nazi Eichmann and the zionists leader of Hungary Kastner worked together. Kastner helped to hide the extermination camps existance and in return Eichmann let 1. 687 rich jews to leave the country.

Well, it's actually a bit more complicated than that.

For one thing, far from being the "zionists leader" of anything, Kastner was a relatively unimportant Zionist figure in Budapest who happened to be the one approached by Eichmann.

And insofar as the "deal" that those two reached, the specific details are still controversial even today.

What is known is that the in exchange for 1,000 US dollars a head, Eichmann agreed to allow approximately 1500 Jews leave German territory unharmed. Whether or not there was any consideration beyond this is presently unknown.

It is true that Kastner never released documents he had recieved indicating the existance of German death camps, but that information had already been released by others and while it was not particularly well known in Hungary, it is unlikely that Kastner had sufficient clout for anyone to take him seriously.

Regardless, though, these actions by one, relatively unimportant, Jewish figure does not tell us much beyond the desperation of the SS in the waning years of the war.

The encounter between Rudolf Kastner and Adolf Eichmann serves to teach us alot about about Rudolf Kastner and Adolf Eichmann, but not much else.

I just wanted to add that in 1975 the UN condemned zionism as a racist movement.

Indeed it did, although it revoked that declaration 16 years later.

It's also worth noting that while Resolution 3379 condemned "Zionism" as racist, the resolution in question was supported and sponsored by such "freedom-loving" countries as Jordan, Kuwait, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq.

And somewhat hillarialously, the Khmer Rouge also felt that this issue was deserving of its vote. While it was in the midst of planing one of the worst genocides in human history, the government of Cambodia thought it worth the effort to make sure and condemn Zionism.

Now, I'm not saying that Zionism is in any way "good", but let's keep the significance of "UN resolutions" clear. The fact that a bunch of, mainly, totalitarian states decided to get together and call something bad does not in any way give that declaration any legitimacy.

I would remind you that the UN resently aproved the US invation of Iraq. That doesn't make the war any more acceptable ...does it?

[Atlas Swallowed]

Zionists are a Jewish supremecist group and should be opposed as any racisit organazation.

[piet11111]

well i dont bother with the ideas behind zionism but i do bother with the actions of the zionists.

so far israel is at best an apartheid state but thats only by the lack of power and influence to become a fullblown facist country.
israel so far resembles the nazi state way too much for me to be comfortable.
because of this i see israel as the biggest threat for world peace and the arabs need to take measures to protect them from the coming wars of american imperialism with israel as its attack dog.

[LSD]

so far israel is at best an apartheid state but thats only by the lack of power and influence to become a fullblown facist country.

Exactly how much more "power" or "influence" could Israel have?

It's pretty much the richest, most powerful, and best protected country in the whole middle east. It is not an exageration that, if she wanted to, Israel could probably defeat the forces of all of her Arab nations combined.

If the Israeli government was merely "waiting" for an "opportune time" to "become fascist", this would be it!

israel so far resembles the nazi state way too much for me to be comfortable.

Then you must be a deeply uncomfortable man because there are literally dozens of countries whose governments more closely ressemble that of National Socialist Germany.

Even within 100 Miles of Tel Aviv there are countries like Syria and Jordan with massively worse records than Israel.

I am in no way saying that the government if Israel is in any way progressive, nor that it is not a bourgeois capitalist lackey of US imperialism. But to claim that it is anything even approaching Nazi Germany is absolutely wrong.

There are real proto-fascist states in the world today. Syria comes to mind, as does Turkmenistan. But Israel?

Sorry, but no.

because of this i see israel as the biggest threat for world peace

WHAT???

A tiny country of 9 million is the "biggest threat for world peace"!?!

I don't mean to alarm you, but it looks as though someone's been slipping PCP into your water supply.

the arabs need to take measures to protect them from the coming wars of american imperialism

Not to burst your bubble, but the "wars of american imperialism" are well underway.

Have you perhaps forgotten about a small Persian Gulf country called Iraq???

[вор в законе]

Take a breath LSD, the Imperialist State of Israel once again has remained intact due to your courageous efforts!

[piet11111]

yes israel is a very small country but its playing with matches right on top of the worlds biggest powder keg.
but its powerbase is fragile they cant even dream of commiting a holocaust agaisnt the arabs
the most likely place for a major war to start is the middle east and the first real battles will probably heavily involve israel.

and yes iraq was an imperialist war but still minor it did not take much effort to defeat iraq and if they really had all options open the "insurgency" would be massacred along with the entire population.
it seems the peak-oil theory (the one i dont believe in) seems to deeply disturb the americans (the petro-dollar theory is also a major issue)
so the coming decades will probably see many "run for the oil" wars that can involve some if not all world powers.

[Mesijs]

Anti-semitism! A threat to all Free people

[JC1]

Anti-semitism! A threat to all Free people

Straight up.

Zionism is simply the struggle for a state for the Jewish people. Communist's suppourt all nation's right to self-determination. Why not the right of Jew's to self determination ?

[TC]

I think its really sick LSD how much you're investing in defending the state of Israel.

so far israel is at best an apartheid state but thats only by the lack of power and influence to become a fullblown facist country.

exactly what area does Israel fall short of being fascist? They might not be as bad as the German Nazis but they're easily worse than the Italian Fascists and the Spanish Fascists.

It's also worth noting that while Resolution 3379 condemned "Zionism" as racist, the resolution in question was supported and sponsored by such "freedom-loving" countries as Jordan, Kuwait, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq.

Are you trying to suggest that an ideology that believes that the lives and rights of European Jews are more valuable than those of Arab Muslims and Christians is anything but racist? Israeli law has one set of rights for Jews, and another set of inferior rights for non-Jews. Israeli state policy has always been aimed at forcibly ethnically cleansing Palestine of Arabs so it can be a majority Jewish state. How is this not racist? Zionists in Palestine have denied the political rights of the Arab majority from day one.


Read what Ben-Gurion, the first prime minister of "Israel", said about the Palestinians. He was perfectly open in declaring that he wanted to expell the Palestinians to create an ethnically pure 'jewish state.' He further openly stated that he considered the Arabs less intellegent, less hard working, and generally inferior.

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Fa...s/Story694.html

It wasn't so much about "not living with people" as it was about "national identiy".

Right, so racism and ethnic cleansing is okay if you put it in terms of "national identity." I hate to point out that every instance of racism and ethnic cleansing has been based on an ideology of national identity.

""In my heart, there was joy mixed with sadness: joy that the nations at last acknowledged that we are a nation with a state, and sadness that we lost half of the country, Judea and Samaria, and , in addition, that we [would] have [in our state] 400,000 [Palestinian] Arabs"

In the area allocated to the Jewish State there are not more than 520,000 Jews and about 350,000 non-Jews, mostly Arabs. Together with the Jews of Jerusalem, the total population of the Jewish State at the time of its establishment, will be about one million, including almost 40% non-Jews. such a [population] composition does not provide a stable basis for a Jewish State. This [demographic] fact must be viewed in all its clarity and acuteness. With such a [population] composition, there cannot even be absolute certainty that control will remain in the hands of the Jewish majority .... There can be no stable and strong Jewish state so long as it has a Jewish majority of only 60%."

"[Palestinian Arab] villages inside the Jewish state that resist 'should be destroyed .... and their inhabitants expelled beyond the borders of the Jewish state.' Meanwhile, 'Palestinian residents of the urban quarters which dominate access to or egress from towns should be expelled beyond the borders of the Jewish state in the event of their resistance.' "

""From your entry into Jerusalem, through Lifta, Romema [East Jerusalem Palestinian neighborhood]. . . there are no [Palestinian] Arab. One hundred percent Jews. Since Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans, it has not been Jewish as it is now. In many [Palestinian] Arab neighborhoods in the west one sees not a single [Palestinian] Arab. I do not assume that this will change. . . . What had happened in Jerusalem. . . . is likely to happen in many parts of the country. . . in the six, eight, or ten months of the campaign there will certainly be great changes in the composition of the population in the country."

-Ben Gurion,

If this isn't racism, fascism, and ethnic cleansing, what is?

If the Israeli government was merely "waiting" for an "opportune time" to "become fascist", this would be it!

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."

"We must expel Arabs and take their places." -Prime Minister Ben Gurion

"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy." -- Prime Minister Golda Meir

""We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!""- Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin

""[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."- Prime Minister Menachem Begin

""(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls.""-Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir

""It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."-PM Ariel Sharon

""Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial"-Ariel Sharon

http://www.monabaker.com/quotes.htm

Israel has been fascist from day one and anyone who says otherwise is a Zionist appologist.

A tiny country of 9 million is the "biggest threat for world peace"!?!

9 million people, 300 nuclear warheads aimed at Arab cities, the most weapons per capita in the world, the largest military budget in the world per capita, second largest number of troops per capita in the world, and a proven willingess to commit massacres against unarmed civilians from a population it considers naturally inferior. Its not the biggest threat to world peace, that would be the United States, its the second biggest threat.

But to claim that it is anything even approaching Nazi Germany is absolutely wrong.

No, Israel hasn't the scale to approach Nazi Germany, its an American puppet rather than indepedent imperialist state in its own right, and its a country with a population closer to 10 million rather than 100 million.

However, their ideology is basically the same. They believe that their people deserve a homeland, that that homeland must be built by eliminating its other inhabitants, that a strong military is important, that people they regard as inferior can be killed for the purposes of pursueing their national asperations to a 'Greater Germany' and a 'Greater Israel', that their people are the most intellegent, the strongest, the master race/chosen people.

The fact that the Nazis chose to kill civilians for their ethnicity by gas chambers and firing squads whereas the Zionists prefer to kill civilians for their ethnicity with bombings and firing squads makes little difference, the product is the same. Should we congraduate the Zionists that they've ethnically cleansed their 'nation' with more expulsions and less exterminations proportionally when compared to Nazis, though both made use of both measures? The Nazis and the Zionists differ not in quality but in quantity. What is going on in Palestine now is every bit as wrong as as what went on in Germany in the 1930s and 40s its simply on a smaller scale and intensity.
------------------------------------------------------


And before some Zionist appologist accuses me of anti-semitism, Zionism has nothing naturally to do with the Jewish people or even the Jewish religion. The largest group of Zionists is not Jewish but rather Evangelical Christian, George Bush is a Zionist in that he believes in a 'Jewish state' to the exclusion of Arabs in Palestine. The native Palestinian Jews who are mostly orthodox never wanted anything to do with Zionism, they lived peacefully with Arab muslims and christians for thousands of years. The Palestinian Jews, Mizrahi Jews, are also (though less aggressively certaintly) descriminated against and marginalized by the Zionist European colonists because they look like Arabs and many of them speak Arabic. To suggest that criticizing a fascist ideology like Zionism in someway implies a criticism of the Jewish people is in of itself an anti-semetic suggestion as it wrongly associates Judiasm with fascism, racism and anti-arabism.

[JC1]

exactly what area does Israel fall short of being fascist? They might not be as bad as the German Nazis but they're easily worse than the Italian Fascists and the Spanish Fascists.

EZ.

The Israeli state might not treat the Palistinians great, but they dont orginize massacares or concentration camp's.

The Italian Facist's killed tens of thousands of Serbs and how many Basque's died at the hands of Franco.

Are you trying to suggest that an ideology that believes that the lives and rights of European Jews are more valuable than those of Arab Muslims and Christians is anything but racist? Israeli law has one set of rights for Jews, and another set of inferior rights for non-Jews. Israeli state policy has always been aimed at forcibly ethnically cleansing Palestine of Arabs so it can be a majority Jewish state. How is this not racist? Zionists in Palestine have denied the political rights of the Arab majority from day one.

What are you talking about ? What law's disenfranchise Arab's in Israel ? They even have special right's that are not afforded to Jews (E.g. They dont have to serve in the IDF).

If youre speaking of Arab's in the territory's, then saying "Zionists in Palestine have denied the political rights of the Arab majority from day one" is false, becuase the territory's were originaly occupied by the ARAB states of Eygpt and Jordan. Neithier of witch gave citizenship to the Palistinian subject's.

Read what Ben-Gurion, the first prime minister of "Israel", said about the Palestinians. He was perfectly open in declaring that he wanted to expell the Palestinians to create an ethnically pure 'jewish state.' He further openly stated that he considered the Arabs less intellegent, less hard working, and generally inferior.

That speech is deplorable. But it is simply rhetoric. It was completly in his power to ethnicly cleanse Isreal of Arab's, but did he ?

[TC]

The Israeli state might not treat the Palistinians great, but they dont orginize massacares or concentration camp's.

The Italian Facist's killed tens of thousands of Serbs and how many Basque's died at the hands of Franco.

Of course they organize massacres, what do you call the mass slaughter of Palestinian women and children in Sabra and Shatila conducted by Phalangist (Fascist) paramilitaries organized under Ariel Aharon's 'Operation GaPeace for Galilee.' When the PLO left Beirut under a cease fire in 1982, the Israeli Army and Phalangist militia forced 3500 Palestinian refugees into sealed camps where they were systematically murdered over the course of less than two days.

Did you just have your television off and internet disconnected when Israel was organizing a massacre in the Jenin camp in 2002?

Israel has killed tens of thousands of Arabs. Not millions, but tens of thousands. Thats why the comparison to Italian and Spanish fascism is more apt than to German fascism.

Baruch Kimmerling, a famous anti-Zionist jewish sociology professor at The Hebrew University of Jerusalem called Gaza “the largest concentration camp ever to exist,” Once the wall is complete, Gaza will rank only the second largest concentration camp ever to exist.

They dont' have Nazi death camps but they certaintly have fascistic concentration/detention camps.

What are you talking about ? What law's disenfranchise Arab's in Israel ? They even have special right's that are not afforded to Jews (E.g. They dont have to serve in the IDF).

They don't serve in the IDF because the Israeli government doesn't want to give them guns and they don't think they'd be willing to murder Arabs. Jewish marriage to Palestinians is illigal. Israeli Arabs who marry Palestinians lose their citizenship. Anyone with a Jewish mother can claim citizenship in Israel, the Arabs on the other hand who lived there for generations are forced into refugee camps with no rights at all. Jews in Israel have the right to sieze property from Palestinian arabs for no money at all, non-Jews are not given land this way. Non-Jews unlike Jewish residents of Israel can be held and tortured for 50 days without legal counsul under the "Criminal Procedure (Enforcement Powers - Special Provisions for Investigating Security Offences of Non-Residents". All israeli citizens are registered on their identity cards by their 'nationality', either Jewish or Arab. The state will not lease or sell land to non-jews. Arabs are not allowed to run buisnesses that export products out of the country.

If youre speaking of Arab's in the territory's, then saying "Zionists in Palestine have denied the political rights of the Arab majority from day one" is false, becuase the territory's were originaly occupied by the ARAB states of Eygpt and Jordan. Neithier of witch gave citizenship to the Palistinian subject's.

Palestinians are not Egyptian or Jordanian, the Palestinian refugees origionally lived in "Israel" before they were foricably expelled. It is not the responsibility of the Jordanian and Egyptian governments to absorb survivors of Zionist ethnic cleansing. Palestinians in the occupied territories have no rights, they're kept in what amounts to prison camps unable to leave, kept inside by Israeli soldiers at checkpoints who occassionally go in to massacre them and murder their leaders.

That speech is deplorable. But it is simply rhetoric. It was completly in his power to ethnicly cleanse Isreal of Arab's, but did he ?

He did an excellent job of it. Origionally Israel/Palestine was 93% arab, 7% Jewish. Today "Israel's" population is only 15% arab.

[Nicky Scarfo]

They don't serve in the IDF because the Israeli government doesn't want to give them guns and they don't think they'd be willing to murder Arabs. Jewish marriage to Palestinians is illigal. Israeli Arabs who marry Palestinians lose their citizenship. Anyone with a Jewish mother can claim citizenship in Israel, the Arabs on the other hand who lived there for generations are forced into refugee camps with no rights at all. Jews in Israel have the right to sieze property from Palestinian arabs for no money at all, non-Jews are not given land this way. Non-Jews unlike Jewish residents of Israel can be held and tortured for 50 days without legal counsul under the "Criminal Procedure (Enforcement Powers - Special Provisions for Investigating Security Offences of Non-Residents". All israeli citizens are registered on their identity cards by their 'nationality', either Jewish or Arab. The state will not lease or sell land to non-jews. Arabs are not allowed to run buisnesses that export products out of the country.

No shit. JC1 is woefully misinformed. Thanks for breakin it down for him. Some of what you just posted is even news to me too, though hardly suprising. Although I believe there is one error-- I don't think Israelis are prohibited by law from marrying Palestinians, but rather Palestinians who marry Israelis may not be granted Israeli citizenship. I think that law is relatively new (within the last 5 or 10 years), it was challenged before Israel's Supreme Court, but I'm not sure what the decision was. But yeah, Israel is most definitely an apartheid state and they've definitely engaged in violent enthinc cleansing of the Arab population.

[TC]

I was aware of that actually, but you have to realize that even if israeli/palestinian marriages are not dejure illigal, they are defacto illigal because they wont grant palestinian spouses of Israelis travel permits into Israel so an Israeli/Palestinian couple in such a situation has the choice of either moving to Palestine or having a long distance relationship and just talking over the phone (when the phone lines aren't down in whatever refugee camp the palestinian spouses is confined to, that is). This restriction applies *exclusively* to Israelis marrying Arabs by the way, if an Israeli marries a European or an American or whatever they're allowed into the country.

[piet11111]

The Israeli state might not treat the Palistinians great, but they dont orginize massacares or concentration camp's.

thats only because they are not able to get away with that otherwise they would be doing it already.

Anti-semitism! A threat to all Free people

i am not an anti semite perhaps you yourself have been taking goebbels advice to heart "if you sling enough mud something will stick"

the actions of israel are more then enough reason to desire the dismantling of the israeli state and the return of palestina to the rightful owners namely the palestinians.