Opinion on Anti Racist Action?

[FinnMacCool]

I've been reading up on anti Racist action on their website and from other soucres. Frankly, I'm a little unsure about them. Their violent methods are unlikely to really make any difference. They claim to not envoke violent but I have a feeling they go there for the sake of starting a fight. It's a bit hypocritical of me to say that I wouldn't support something like this because I would probably fight nazis but I just don't think it creates a very good image.

However, what are your thoughts on this interesting organization?

[Comrade Marcel]

The tactics of confronting nazis and fascists miltantly, and dedicated non-passive resistance against the far right is tried, tested and true.

Name one anti-racist organization that has done as much in north ameriKKKa to eliminate fascist organizations as ARA has.

If you want to lay down like Gandhi or whatever well boneheads give you the boot, give it a try. Or alternatively, hang out with the liberal crowd who eat pop and pizza well fascist march through Black neighborhoods and beat up Queers and leftists.

[FinnMacCool]

Frankly, I think neo nazis and kkk assholes are in more of an increase then in decrease.

Dont' get me wrong, there is definatly something appealing about bashing the heads in of those assholes but I'm just not sure if its the best way to solve the problem.

And don't diss Ghandi. Ghandi was cool. I don't agree with his ideas completely but he definatly had a good thing going.

Btw are you a skin? I met some skins and they were pretty cool except sometimes they try to fight you

[violencia.Proletariat]

Dont' get me wrong, there is definatly something appealing about bashing the heads in of those assholes but I'm just not sure if its the best way to solve the problem.

Then what is? We must make all opposition to that movement HOSTILE, so they will A.) Give up or B.) Not be able to function because of hostile actions against them

And don't diss Ghandi. Ghandi was cool. I don't agree with his ideas completely but he definatly had a good thing going.

So its ok to support Gandhi? A petty bourgeois who openly defended private property and capitalism! YEAH RIGHT!

[FinnMacCool]

So its ok to support Gandhi? A petty bourgeois who openly defended private property and capitalism! YEAH RIGHT!

You people are very fucking extreme. . .you forget about a billion other things that Ghandi did for his country and for humanity.

And Ghandi was a socialist btw.

Then what is? We must make all opposition to that movement HOSTILE, so they will A.) Give up or B.) Not be able to function because of hostile actions against them

Yeah okay I'm not saying you shouldn't oppose them. I'm just not sure if its a good idea to fight them constantly and start riots.

[violencia.Proletariat]

You people are very fucking extreme

No shit, we are communists!

you forget about a billion other things that Ghandi did for his country and for humanity.

How is starving yourself to death a contribution for humanity? Capitalism has done more to progres India than Gandhi ever did.

And Ghandi was a socialist btw.

This freedom from all attachment is the realization of God as Truth.

Wiki,

At the onset of the South African War, Gandhi argued that Indians must support the war effort in order to legitimize their claims to full citizenship

Yes because socialists are a bunch of godsucking war supporters

And here is some other dumb crap he said/supported

The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.

Well if I'm not mistaken, animals roam freely for the most part in India, many people are vegitarians. YET THE CASTE SYSTEMS REIGNS FREE AS WELL. This is the dumbest bullshit I've ever heard.

wiki,

In applying these principles, Gandhi did not balk from taking them to their most logical extremes. In 1940, when invasion of the British Isles by Nazi Germany looked imminent, Gandhi offered the following advice to the British people (Non-Violence in Peace and War):

"I would like you to lay down the arms you have as being useless for saving you or humanity. You will invite Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini to take what they want of the countries you call your possessions.... If these gentlemen choose to occupy your homes, you will vacate them. If they do not give you free passage out, you will allow yourselves, man, woman, and child, to be slaughtered, but you will refuse to owe allegiance to them".

Yes thats right, when the fascists come you should deffinetly do this, What a bunch of bullshit. When fascists come you fucking shoot them dead!

[FinnMacCool]

No shit, we are communists!

So you think anyone with 'capitalist' leanings is evil or stupid or whatever? It's no different then libertarians prejudice against communists. Even radicals have to excercise a little moderations, not in politics but at least in every day understanding of the world.

How is starving yourself to death a contribution for humanity? Capitalism has done more to progres India than Gandhi ever did.

Oh I guess you think they were a lot better off when they were getting fucked over by the brits, or when all their attempted insurrections got stomped.

This freedom from all attachment is the realization of God as Truth.

What is that supposed to mean? Do you have a problem with truth?

Yes because socialists are a bunch of godsucking war supporters

And here is some other dumb crap he said/supported

Little do you know that communists have supported wars in the pass, including World War II and other imperialist ventures

[Quoe]Well if I'm not mistaken, animals roam freely for the most part in India, many people are vegitarians. YET THE CASTE SYSTEMS REIGNS FREE AS WELL. This is the dumbest bullshit I've ever heard. [/Quote]
Ideas that have been a way of life for a thousand years aren't going to disappear overnight.

Yes thats right, when the fascists come you should deffinetly do this, What a bunch of bullshit. When fascists come you fucking shoot them dead!

I don't agree with his ideas on this but to deny his accomplishments his, in my opinion, stupid.

What's with these fucking quotes btw. Do the regular brackets not work or something?

[violencia.Proletariat]

So you think anyone with 'capitalist' leanings is evil or stupid or whatever?

Did you just pull that out of your ass? You said you guys are really extreme, yes communists have extreme views compared to whats acceptable today. If you read my posts around the board you would see I dont resort to moralistic arguements of "good" and "evil". You are awfully quick to defend supporters of capitalism <_<

Oh I guess you think they were a lot better off when they were getting fucked over by the brits, or when all their attempted insurrections got stomped.

They would have been a lot better off if they fought back. If Gandhi really followed that crap he preached, the Brits would have easily been able to assassinate him.

What is that supposed to mean? Do you have a problem with truth?

I have a problem with people who think truth comes from imaginary beings being represented as "leftist", mainly because those people are fucking nuts.

Little do you know that communists have supported wars in the pass, including World War II and other imperialist ventures

What communists were those? Does that give it the communist seal of approval? NO&#33; Communists do not support imperialists&#33;

Ideas that have been a way of life for a thousand years aren&#39;t going to disappear overnight.

Thats not an excuse for openly stating you agree with those principles (Gandhi accepting hinduism).

I don&#39;t agree with his ideas on this but to deny his accomplishments his, in my opinion, stupid.[/quote]

[quote]What accomplishments, as I&#39;ve already stated the British could have easily solved their Gandhi problem.

[FinnMacCool]

Did you just pull that out of your ass? You said you guys are really extreme, yes communists have extreme views compared to whats acceptable today. If you read my posts around the board you would see I dont resort to moralistic arguements of "good" and "evil". You are awfully quick to defend supporters of capitalism <_<

Politically, communists and the life should be extreme. But if your world view centers around the evils of capitalism then your going to skip over about a thousand things that these "evil" capitalists have done for the world.

They would have been a lot better off if they fought back. If Gandhi really followed that crap he preached, the Brits would have easily been able to assassinate him.

Did you read what I said? The Indians did fight back but its a little hard when you have the greatest super power in the world breathing down your neck with guns. When insurrections did start, they were stomped on rather quickly.

I have a problem with people who think truth comes from imaginary beings being represented as "leftist", mainly because those people are fucking nuts.

Have you never heard the analogy &#39;God is this&#39; or &#39;God is that&#39;? Why do you care how they phrase it?

What communists were those? Does that give it the communist seal of approval? NO&#33; Communists do not support imperialists&#33;

The Communist Party USA supported World War II. Not just then but most communists during that period of time. They were mostly pro soviet then.

Thats not an excuse for openly stating you agree with those principles (Gandhi accepting hinduism).

What the hell? Am I under prosecution now? And just becuase I support some of his principles doesn&#39;t mean I have all his principles.

What accomplishments, as I&#39;ve already stated the British could have easily solved their Gandhi problem.

Yeah and why didn&#39;t they? Because Ghandi was smart and he created media attention and world sympathy to the troubles in India. India didn&#39;t become free from British rule by chance.

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by FinnMacCool@Mar 27 2006, 10:14 PM

Frankly, I think neo nazis and kkk assholes are in more of an increase then in decrease.

I&#39;m not sure if I think KKK, nazis, fascist, etc are on the rise; but they definately are not going away and won&#39;t until worker&#39;s power is established in the imperialist countries.

Dont&#39; get me wrong, there is definatly something appealing about bashing the heads in of those assholes but I&#39;m just not sure if its the best way to solve the problem.

It&#39;s not going to make the problem completely go away, but it&#39;s basically self defense and one of the most practical ways of anti-racist organizing and combating fascism. This brings about participation, and builds momentum through real results. The biggest challenge is to keep the momentum after battles have been won and victories acheived.

And don&#39;t diss Ghandi. Ghandi was cool. I don&#39;t agree with his ideas completely but he definatly had a good thing going.

Well, Gandhi was good at rallying the masses. However, in the end he betrayed the revolutionary and nationalist movements by capitulating to British imperialism.

Btw are you a skin? I met some skins and they were pretty cool except sometimes they try to fight you

No, I&#39;m not a skin.

[Comrade Marcel]

Communists should support war, when it&#39;s revolutionary or progressive war. See Mao Zedong&#39;s quotes on war from the Red book. Even if you don&#39;t like Mao most Marxists would agree with those quotes by Mao.

As for people organizing against racism, you have to keep in mind that you don&#39;t ALWAYS use the same tactics, and not everyone has to participate in militant actions. Also, there are many different types of racism that need to be fought; i.e. organized racism, systemic racism, institutional and individual as well as fascism in it&#39;s many forms.

Obviously not alll of these call for the same repsonses all the time.

But militant action does become necessary at some point.

I can understand that maybe you are looking for a broader support, but ask yourself if you really want to work with the kind of people that broad coalitions usually attract. Just look at the type of opportunism that plagues the anti-war movement for example; with social-democrats no where to be found during the invasion of Afghanistan, and then suddenly all oer the sexy oh-so-attractive and full of energetic young people protests against war on Iraq. Then as soon as CNN announced the war is over the drop like flies in a Raid factory.

[FinnMacCool]

Communists should support war, when it&#39;s revolutionary or progressive war. See Mao Zedong&#39;s quotes on war from the Red book. Even if you don&#39;t like Mao most Marxists would agree with those quotes by Mao.

Revolutionary War I agree with but not "progressive" war. I would hope that a revolution would create a society where people don&#39;t need things like war because most wars are fought for economic interests. even if a war like that benefited the masses (which is highly doubtful) it would have to be done on the backs of other human beings who are supporting another country probably not unlike that of the country just recently overthrown in your own society.

As for people organizing against racism, you have to keep in mind that you don&#39;t ALWAYS use the same tactics, and not everyone has to participate in militant actions. Also, there are many different types of racism that need to be fought; i.e. organized racism, systemic racism, institutional and individual as well as fascism in it&#39;s many forms.

Obviously not alll of these call for the same repsonses all the time.

But militant action does become necessary at some point.

I can understand that maybe you are looking for a broader support, but ask yourself if you really want to work with the kind of people that broad coalitions usually attract. Just look at the type of opportunism that plagues the anti-war movement for example; with social-democrats no where to be found during the invasion of Afghanistan, and then suddenly all oer the sexy oh-so-attractive and full of energetic young people protests against war on Iraq. Then as soon as CNN announced the war is over the drop like flies in a Raid factory.

Right I can understand where your coming from and I do want to organize myself with more dedicated activists. The only thing is I think violence should only be used as purely defensives. And I mean SERIOUSLy defensive. Like if someone hit me I hit them back. Not me hit them in order to stop them from hitting me first.

I also advocate defense against cops, for obvious reaosns. But only hesitantly. The thing is, it can do you more harm then good if you attack a cop. You might end up being charged with assault and thats not good.

One thing you do have to keep in mind is the way the media portrays us. It isn&#39;t in a very good light at all, let me tell you. That shit that happened in Toledo for example.

Also there was something at a show in Germany where they were supposedly fighting neo nazis who were there. But then I saw a video of people throwing rocks at a window and looting tvs and shit. OOPS. So much for fighting fascism oi&#33; oi&#33;.

[Comrade Marcel]

The bourgeois media is never going to portray us ina good light, so why would you even begin to depend on that?

Don&#39;t talk about Toledo, because I was there. The people in the hood and local area knew what really went down.

The job of organizers and intelligent revolutionaries is to win over as many of the masses as possible. Polemicise with the media, do your own press releases and challenge them and make them look like morons.

See this thread for example:
http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/ind...howtopic=37812

The media tried to make us look like hooligans and uninvited guests all throughout the buildp to this and in the aftermath, but we fought back and in the end London&#39;s Queer/Pride community thanked ARA and wants us back. The opportunists and status-quo good for nothings and do nothings were exposed.

I respect your descipline of self-defense, but I disgree with your dejustification of pre-emptive self-defense. Persynally, if I know someone is going to hurt my comrades, my family or myself I will get them first if I can. As a communist, someone jsut wearing a swastika is a threat to me. Millions of communists were killed under the jackboot and swastika, and I don&#39;t want to see even one antifa or commie murdered by a fash.

As for looting and shit, it is all linked to capitalism, exploitation and uneven distribution of wealth. Most people don&#39;t just loot and smash things for no reason. Most riots and uprisings have a social context (except European soccer games).

As for being charged, I admit it sucks in the united &#036;nakes because bail is high and sentences can be pretty tough down there, but most of us are probably going to be jailed, killed or exiled someday anyways; unless we win the revolution.

Infact, I don&#39;t much trust comrades who have never been arrested (unless they are real young) anymore than I trust the ones that are overly violent.

[violencia.Proletariat]

But if your world view centers around the evils of capitalism then your going to skip over about a thousand things that these "evil" capitalists have done for the world.

Have you read any of my responses, specifically me saying that modern capitalism is good for India? LISTEN TO ME HEAR BECASUE YOU DONT SEEM TO GET THIS, I dont use moral arguements of "good or bad" ok, can you get that? So dont describe my arguements as calling people "evil" capitalists. That seems like your trying to equate me with angsty teens who dont understand class society. Capitalists in the first world are NO LONGER progressive, and I will not reflect on them in a positive way. I also find it very strange that you continually keep trying to defend capitalists.

The Indians did fight back but its a little hard when you have the greatest super power in the world breathing down your neck with guns.

And the same could be said right now for the Iraqis. But guess what, they are fighting back&#33; And the US ISN&#39;T WINNING&#33; The same for the Vietnamese too&#33;

How do you expect those in the imperialistic nations to also help bring down the imperialists if you think its ok for communists to support imperialistic conquests?

Why do you care how they phrase it?

I don&#39;t, I just dont want them having the opertunity to publicy preach about the existence of a non existing entity.

The Communist Party USA supported World War II. Not just then but most communists during that period of time.

They were Leninists, I&#39;m an anarchist, do you think I like Leninists? Reformists are not a very good reflection of a revolutionary movement by the way.

And just becuase I support some of his principles doesn&#39;t mean I have all his principles.

What principles of his do you support? None of them are looking to great&#33;

Yeah and why didn&#39;t they? Because Ghandi was smart and he created media attention and world sympathy to the troubles in India. India didn&#39;t become free from British rule by chance

Was India really free from foreign rule? No, India&#39;s native bourgeoisie is still not free of foreign rule of its means of production. Did the British phsyically leave? Yes, its not economically sound to control countries that way anymore, Iraq is a perfect example of that, its easier to control it economically.

[Comrade Marcel]

Just to make things clear. CPUSA and CP Canada never supported WW II until USSR was invaded and declared war on Germany.

WW II was an imperialist war, except for the fact that non-imperialist countries were occupied and deserved assistance with liberation.

Getting back to the original topic (fascists and racists) you may be interested to read this old debate from back in the days when we were building a group in Ontario called Rebel Youth Network. The debate was between Young Left (a Toronto group of Marxists), Toronto Native Youth and Kitchner Waterloo Youth Collective supporting militancy and a comrade from the Communist Party of Canada who was skeptical.

http://free.hostultra.com/~mrodden/debate/...ar_antifash.htm

I might respond to some of your other comments later...

[Mujer Libre]

And Ghandi was a socialist btw.

First of all, his last name is Gandhi, not Ghandi.

Secondly Gandhi was not a socialist, you&#39;re applying this term to him retrospectively (and incorrectly) - he never indentified with &#39;socialism&#39;, marxism and so forth - this is all wishful thinking on your behalf. He was willing to co-operate with British ruling class, to endorse the phoney institutions that the British had created to placate an increasingly hostile nation of people, and to ignore class issues within Indian society.

How you can praise and support a man who took non-violent philsophy to such utopian extremes? To encourage people to passively resist the onslaught of the german and italian war machines in WWII? To lay down their arms and vacate their houses for the Axis forces? And who encouraged european Jews to die as martyrs at the hands of the Nazi&#39;s and their allies?

To believe as Gandhi did, that people can change the mind of their oppressors through love and non-violent resistance alone, through sacrifice, martyring oneself to reach a higher plain, a moral high ground, that this is meant to persuade oppressing forces to see the error of their ways is incredibly utopian and when applied in reality often leads effectively to slaughter.

Gandhi&#39;s view of African peoples is also disturbing.

On addressing a public meeting in Bombay on September 26, 1896 (cf. Collected Works Volume II, page 74) following his return from South Africa, Gandhi said:

Originally posted by Gandhi
"Ours is one continued struggle against degradation sought to be inflicted upon us by the European, who desire to degrade us to the level of the raw kaffir, whose occupation is hunting and whose sole ambition is to collect a certain number of cattle to buy a wife with, and then pass his life in indolence and nakedness".

Gandhi is just replicating the racist stereotypes of African people that was being propagated by the British and Afrikaaners in South Africa to justify colonisation, of the &#39;degraded kaffir&#39; ---&#62; of the &#39;simple, lazy and naked&#39; African. That is disgusting.

[Comrade Marcel]

Great post Mujer Libre&#33;

I love when these "heros" that the bourgeois love so much - like Gandhi, Mother Teresa, Dalai Lama, the Pope, etc. - are exposed for the scum they really are/were.

[Graham_Pogo]

I am currently involved with Philly Anti-Racist-Action. We are extremely active and the way we handle protests , demos , etc WORKS. I mean but if thats not your thing you could just ask the nazis , christians , recruiters, or whatever to leave nicely. I&#39;m sure they will respect your opinion. Passive resistance only gets us so far. Sorry this seems rushed I&#39;m at school right now.

[YSR]

(totally off topic, but I feel it&#39;s important)

Gandhi&#39;s methods: effective as tactics, not as strategy.

That is to say, his committment to non-violence CAN be very effective, but it is not neccessarily effective. As somone said above, Gandhi was a utopian. No question about that.

Are his tactics useful sometimes? Absolutely. If you are in a situation with a neutral populace and an overtly hostile and larger enemy, nonviolence can be effective. It can turn the populace towards you where all violent action would do is alienate them and have you get your ass kicked by the bad guys.

But we cannot and SHOULD not base our strategy off of Tolstoyan/Gandhian nonviolence. It can play a role, but a committment to that is simply dumb. We are not bound by bourgeois morals and so we don&#39;t have to bow to their rules. We must use the most effective means to accomplish our ends. Whether this is nonviolence, violence, or some combination of the two depends on the specific situation and should be decided on by the specific people on the ground.

And yes, Gandhi had the opportunity to smash the caste system and squandered it because he was afraid that without it, Hinduism would collapse. So yeah, he was an idiot at times.