“White Anglo Saxon protestant”

[Monty Cantsin]

When people refer to the dominate culture of the United States of America they talk of WASP culture or at least they before rap and hip-hop became mainstream. Anyway WASP as everyone one known is “White Anglo Saxon protestant”. So what about the ‘white’ ethnic groups that aren’t Anglo Saxon, such as people with Celtic ancestry i.e. Irish, Scottish so forth. How did they fare especially in early America?

"No Irish need to aply"

This is an article that claims that Anglo Saxon on Irish discrimination is over exaggerated in ‘Irish mythology’.

anyways throwing it open, want to know what you think...

[More Fire for the People]

The Irish and Scots faced severe discrimination when they moved to America. Many businesses had signs saying "Irish need not apply." Many Irishmen and Scotsmen joined the army simply because they couldn't find work anywhere else. A good history of the United States and the treatment of it's immigrants can be found in Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States.

[PRC-UTE]

It varied deeply from region to region and city to city.

In Boston it was extreme - so much so that there still remains an Irish ghetto to this day, Southie. In New York there was a lot of discrimination and there are still working class immigrant Irish areas, though they will largely disappear in the next decade or so as Irish immigration continues to decline dramatically (much to the USA's loss ).

In areas that already had been French and already had a Catholic presence, like St Louis, there was little prejudice or discrimination, actually. New Orleans seems to be the primary exception to this, where there was actually a pogrom against Irish immigrants.

In some places like Chicago and Kansas City, the Irish arrived in such numbers that they just smashed groups like the KKK on the streets.

What the underlying cause of it was partially Anglo-Saxon Protestant prejudice but largely it was economic. There was competition for jobs in the cities that the bosses used to divide workers and in the west there was a need for their labour. The west and areas along the Mississippi were often given to Irish immigrants, in fact US records claim there were Gaelic speaking counties along the Mississippi! So in some areas there was hardly discrimination, and Irish immigrants converted to American sects like the Baptists.

By far, Irish immigrants fleeing to Scotland faced far worse conditions. Irish are still hated in parts of Scotland the way Mexican migrant workers are in much of the USA.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Originally posted by Monty Cantsin@Mar 5 2006, 03:43 AM
So what about the ‘white’ ethnic groups that aren’t Anglo Saxon, such as people with Celtic ancestry i.e. Irish, Scottish so forth. How did they fare especially in early America?

The Welsh variety of "Celtism" - Welsh Celts - did pretty well in early America as far as I know, not that that many emigrated.

If memory serves me correctly, 3 of the first 6 American Presidents were Welsh or had "Welsh blood". Indeed, half of Manhattan is still owned by a Welshman, however they haven't been able to find any living relatives to give his fortune too.

Pity!

OglachMcGlinchey in his description of where Irish people faced most discrimination, hints at a reason as to why Celts from Wales suffered less discrimination - if they suffered any at all - they weren't Catholics!

So they had at least the "appearance" of being Anglo-Saxon and they may have even promoted this "image".

Indeed, I suspect Scottish Celts faced less discrimination due to Scotland mainly being a Protestant country.

As well as that, I think most Scots and Welsh people were part of the original settlement, so when the Irish came and threatened jobs, that's when the discrimination started.

So really it was a mixture of real economic interests and the stupidity of superstition.

[Janus]

Stereotyping and discrimination were major obstacles that the Irish community faced in the US. This reached a peak in the 19th century with the establishment of the Know-Nothing party. However, Irish-Americans gained economic equality with their neighbors by 1900.

Of course, there was an upsurge during World War I due to the Irish community's support support of the Central Powers as a result of their animosity towards the British.

It is very interesting that today many minorities, particularly those in New York and Boston where the police forces are dominated by officers of Irish origin, perceive them to be extremely racist and oppressive.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by Armchair Socialism+Mar 6 2006, 02:39 AM--> (Armchair Socialism @ Mar 6 2006, 02:39 AM)

Monty Cantsin

@Mar 5 2006, 03:43 AM
So what about the ‘white’ ethnic groups that aren’t Anglo Saxon, such as people with Celtic ancestry i.e. Irish, Scottish so forth. How did they fare especially in early America?

The Welsh variety of "Celtism" - Welsh Celts - did pretty well in early America as far as I know, not that that many emigrated.

If memory serves me correctly, 3 of the first 6 American Presidents were Welsh or had "Welsh blood". Indeed, half of Manhattan is still owned by a Welshman, however they haven't been able to find any living relatives to give his fortune too.

Pity!

OglachMcGlinchey in his description of where Irish people faced most discrimination, hints at a reason as to why Celts from Wales suffered less discrimination - if they suffered any at all - they weren't Catholics!

So they had at least the "appearance" of being Anglo-Saxon and they may have even promoted this "image".

Indeed, I suspect Scottish Celts faced less discrimination due to Scotland mainly being a Protestant country.

As well as that, I think most Scots and Welsh people were part of the original settlement, so when the Irish came and threatened jobs, that's when the discrimination started.

So really it was a mixture of real economic interests and the stupidity of superstition. [/b]

There's actually an ideal case study for what you're talking about - the Pennsylvania coal mines. Penn. was the most Welsh of American states apparently. According to a book I read about the Molly Maguires, the mine owners and upper management were Saxon, while Welsh were overrepresented in the ranks of lower level management and foremen.

The Irish miners were almost exclusively the miners who did the most backbreaking work and in the most dangerous conditions. It was very effective divide and conquer tactics. One of the pinkertons who helped break the Molly Maguires was a Catholic who had been raised in a Protestant village of Ulster - which seems to explain according to one sociologist why he felt no regret or shame in being state's evidence against his fellow oppressed Irish Catholics. Most Irish Catholics of that time period would be very relunctant to ever call the police on each other, much less actively undermine each other.

Despite being as Celtic as their Irish counterparts, the Welsh workers were regarded as wholly American, even when they maintained seperate Welsh societies and so on (which were among the very first ethnic societies in the USA). Conversely, cartoons and caricatures of the Irish being subhuman date back to before the USA became its own country.

_____

In regards to the original topic, how many have heard of the Saint Patricks Brigade that switched sides in the US invasion of Mexico?

[PRC-UTE]

About the Scots: I think you're correct about that, AS. I haven't heard much about oppression or discrimination against Scots, not even the Highland and/or Catholic variety.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Originally posted by Janus+--> (Janus)It is very interesting that today many minorities, particularly those in New York and Boston where the police forces are dominated by officers of Irish origin, perceive them to be extremely racist and oppressive.[/b]

I can't remember the name of it off-hand, but there's some kind of "syndrome" which affects kidnapped victims and turns them into "admirers" of their kidnappers.

I suspect this could be applied to wider social groups that have been oppressed for a long time and then "accepted". Basically, due to the feelings of helplessness they experience during the discrimination, when they are finally "set free" and "accepted", they try to impress their former masters as best they can and in the process become their most brutal lackeys.

A good historian could probably find some confirmation for my hypothesis. Personally, I know of a few examples. One of these being the former African Slaves in the Caribbean who when freed, went on to form a particularly nasty division of the Army of the British Empire!

Another good example would be parts of the Shi'ite community in Iraq (and the Kurdish community). Both these groups had been oppressed by Saddam Hussein and his American backers, and now they act as collaborators in the American-British Imperial adventure in Iraq.

The Kurdish Secret Service providing Intelligence for America is particularly ironic, especially when one considers the Americans supplied the Gas which was used on the Kurds.

It's almost as if they sign a "Terms of Agreement"....

We, the oppressor, will stop brutalising you so long as you start ruthlessly oppressing other minorities we dislike.

OglachMcGlinchey

....even when they maintained separate Welsh societies....

Ah poo!

Somewhere in America the most ugly spoken language is surviving and along with it some of the most stupid "culture" around.

In a bar in New York someone right now is probably shouting....

OGIE, OGIE, OGIE, OI, OI, OI!

Horrendous!

[Janus]

I can't remember the name of it off-hand, but there's some kind of "syndrome" which affects kidnapped victims and turns them into "admirers" of their kidnappers.

It's the Hearst syndrome. Seriously, it's the Stockhom Syndrome.

I suspect this could be applied to wider social groups that have been oppressed for a long time and then "accepted". Basically, due to the feelings of helplessness they experience during the discrimination, when they are finally "set free" and "accepted", they try to impress their former masters as best they can and in the process become their most brutal lackeys.

True. Many people associate Irish Americans as always trying to be "whiter" than others. This may be due to the fact that they have fought hard to gain acceptance in the US and therefore are more inclined to assert themselves over the minorities whom they consider lesser than them.

[TC]

Originally posted by Hopscotch Anthill@Mar 5 2006, 03:22 AM
The Irish and Scots faced severe discrimination when they moved to America. Many businesses had signs saying "Irish need not apply." Many Irishmen and Scotsmen joined the army simply because they couldn't find work anywhere else. A good history of the United States and the treatment of it's immigrants can be found in Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States.

If you read the article posted at the top of the thread, apparently there is actually no historical evidence that 'no irish need apply' signs were ever used and that its probably an urban myth.


Any first generation immigrant group is going to have a harder time getting jobs and into the establishment simply because they have no connections...but white immigrant groups in white dominated nations rarely face significant descrimination after the first generation because they're not distinguishable (especially in the case of Irish as they look the same as yankees).


In fact Irish americans are one of the only more recent immigrant groups to make there way into the north eastern yankee establishment. John Kerry's a catholic and he has an old New England prep school education and he's a Yale Skull and Bone's alumnus, you really can't get more establishement then that (and if you see him in old videos, he used to talk with a sickeningly aristocratic boston brahmin accent that you only pick up from a country club/social register type upbringing). The Kennedy's who are probably the most prominant north eastern establishment political family along with the Bush's, are also catholic.

[Monty Cantsin]

Originally posted by TragicClown@Mar 8 2006, 05:05 PM

If you read the article posted at the top of the thread, apparently there is actually no historical evidence that 'no irish need apply' signs were ever used and that its probably an urban myth.

i dont know if that articles correct, it's one of the only thngs i could find on the topic so i tagged it on.

[PRC-UTE]

The 'No Irish Need Apply' signs did indeed exist.

No, the Irish faced far more difficulties than most other groups and their troubles last longer - probably what solved their problems of discrimination was the desire for 'white unity' at the end of reconstruction, when most whites essentially turned their backs on blacks in the south.

The Irish were the first mass immigrant group, actually, and met with an extremely hostile reception. It wouldn't be accurate to say it's the typical problems of any group without connections as a clear bigotry towards Irishness and more specifically Catholicism was huge until the 1920s (it was the impetus for the KKK's resurgence in the 1920s).

[TC]

There was never significant irish immigration to the South though they mostly immigrated to the north east and new england, so your white unity theory makes little sense.

Of course i don't know if the article is true or not, but for the sake of clarity, can you find a photo of an 'irish need not apply' sign on a store window?



And regardless, its clear that irish are not an oppressed ethnic group in america today. In fact no country other than America itself is celebrated so much in the american north east as Ireland is. St. Patricks day is a a major holiday in Boston and New York City and Chicago; no other national holiday of another country is celebrated in the United States. Whites with Irish ancestory in the US trying to make themselves out to be part of some kindof disadvantaged minority (same goes for people of Italian or European Jewish ancestory) are being really quite pathetic to co-opt issues of racism that actually do effect a large group of people (like blacks, latin americans, middle eastern and south asians, and indigenous peoples)

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by TragicClown@Mar 8 2006, 05:45 PM
And regardless, its clear that irish are not an oppressed ethnic group in america today.

Has anyone ever claimed that?

In fact I'd suggest that one of the greatest assets in allowing the Irish to climb out of the ghettoes was the arrival of the next wave of immigrants - in particular the Italians, Poles and Russians. These new immigrants promptly filled the bottom level jobs allowing the Irish to climb the social ladder.

There's an interesting table of data regarding number to the New World over on Wikipedia

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by TragicClown@Mar 8 2006, 05:48 PM
There was never significant irish immigration to the South though they mostly immigrated to the north east and new england, so your white unity theory makes little sense.

The theory regarded the North and NE specifically.

It's actually not my theory at all. I just happened to agree with it and repeated it. Mainstream bourgeois historians explained the pre-Civil War white ethnic divides and the post-civil war decrease in these divides and prejudices are explained by Irish integration into society through what was seen as a blood sacrifice on the battlefield and their newfound respect and esteem within American mainstream society. It didn't erase all prejudice and discrimination, but it began the process of integrating Irish into America and reduced tensions between white ethnics (at least until WWI).

Of course i don't know if the article is true or not, but for the sake of clarity, can you find a photo of an 'irish need not apply' sign on a store window?

Not today, which is another discussion.

And regardless, its clear that irish are not an oppressed ethnic group in america today. In fact no country other than America itself is celebrated so much in the american north east as Ireland is. St. Patricks day is a a major holiday in Boston and New York City and Chicago; no other national holiday of another country is celebrated in the United States. Whites with Irish ancestory in the US trying to make themselves out to be part of some kindof disadvantaged minority (same goes for people of Italian or European Jewish ancestory) are being really quite pathetic to co-opt issues of racism that actually do effect a large group of people (like blacks, latin americans, middle eastern and south asians, and indigenous peoples)

If any Irish American played the race card, that would be quite pathetic. I haven't run across that, though. Indeed it's even arguable that 'Irish America' is nothing more than a mere shadow of previous immigration patterns and nothing more.

We're discussing the history of it and I already said previously that conditions changed for the Irish in the States after the Civil War. I'm not really sure what you're responding to here.

Now, newly arrived Irish immigrants are another story. Aside from Muslims, they've been targetted severly by immigration authorities post-9/11 and there are plenty of poster children for this, such as the McAllister family.

[TC]

Any irish people who immigrate to the US today are stupid since economic factors (better healthcare, welfare state, employment, pay equality, and overall affluence in ireland than in the US) would probably favor staying home so they'd have to actually like it over there.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by TragicClown@Mar 8 2006, 10:05 PM
Any irish people who immigrate to the US today are stupid since economic factors (better healthcare, welfare state, employment, pay equality, and overall affluence in ireland than in the US) would probably favor staying home so they'd have to actually like it over there.

Immigration is dropping off from Ireland for some of the reasons you mentioned, but in cases like the McAllister family, they were fleeing loyalist death squads who publicly promised to kill them if they were sent back to Ireland.

[321zero]

A few paragraphs from a humour* piece which includes some observations on Irish and Scots-Irish immigration to the USA.

*Warning - likely to offend touchy protestant Ulstermen.

Let's face a very unpleasant, important fact about the US: the bedrock white American population is largely descended from, and entirely dominated by the cultural traditions of Ulster Protestants - Ian Paisley's tribe, the people alluded to by that deceptively mild term, "Scotch-Irish." And this tribe's oldest hatred, their Ur-hatred, is for the Papists they used to hang from meathooks in Northern Ireland.

Sure, they've found new objects for their hate in the new world: blacks and gays and anybody else who happens to be in range when Scots-Irish eyes are glinting with hate (which is all the time). But underneath, whispering in every Baptist sermon, is that old horror of Rome, the "Whore of Babylon."

When Kennedy was running for president, the great positive-thinking minister Norman Vincent Peale warned that American values would collapse if a Catholic were elected. When Al Smith, also an Irish Catholic, ran decades earlier, one of the most powerful propaganda tools the Republicans had was a pamphlet that circulated all through the South showing Smith opening a tunnel. The caption explained that it was a secret tunnel leading from the White House to the Vatican, so the puppet Smith could get his instructions from his Jesuit masters. It's this sort of quaint Americana that led the historian Arthur Schlesinger to call anti-Catholicism "the deepest prejudice of the American people."

According to another prominent cultural historian, Samuel Huntington, the only reason Ulster-America has relaxed its old hatred of Papists is that "American Catholicism assimilated many of the features of the Protestant mainstream."

http://www.exile.ru/2005-April-08/feature_story.html

Read the whole thing - funny observations on Punk and Anti-abortion politics in the States too.

[Body Count]

Originally posted by Janus@Mar 6 2006, 02:23 AM
It is very interesting that today many minorities, particularly those in New York and Boston where the police forces are dominated by officers of Irish origin, perceive them to be extremely racist and oppressive.

Probably because they are.

Just because they USED to be oppressed doesn't mean they aren't racist today...hell, it doesn't even mean they weren't racist BACK THEN. Ever seen "Gangs of New York", thats supposedly accurate of how race relations were in that time. And as you can see, blacks were still at the bottom of the barrel.

I think that the discrimination faced by some of these white groups tend to be quite overrated, basically, its used to say "We made it out, blacks can't because they are lazy and stupid".

[Body Count]

Aren't more and more Irish being assimilated in Britain?

I heard before that something like 1/4'th of all Brits have an Irish grandparent.