Holocaust denial in Austria is a criminal act

[Janus]

British historian David Irving goes on trial in the Austrian capital, Vienna, on Monday, accused of denying the Holocaust occurred.
The charges relate to a speech and an interview he gave in Austria in 1989 in which he denied the existence of gas chambers at Auschwitz.

Mr Irving's lawyer told the BBC his client would plead guilty.

Holocaust denial is a criminal offence in Austria which carries a maximum sentence of 10 years in prison.

David Irving came to Austria last November to give a lecture to a far-right student fraternity. He was stopped by police as he was driving on a motorway in the south of the country.

They arrested him in connection with a lecture and an interview he gave in Austria in 1989.

Mr Irving has been held in custody in Vienna ever since he was arrested in November.

In a letter to the BBC from his prison cell, Mr Irving said some of his views on the gas chambers had changed - but he also expressed opinions which would be challenged by mainstream historians.

I knew that Austria was extremely strict on anything concerning Nazis but this is pretty interesting. 10 years? That would definitely shut up some Nazis.

[Janus]

This guy got a relatively light prison sentence.

BBC News

Holocaust denier Irving is jailed
British historian David Irving has been found guilty in Vienna of denying the Holocaust and sentenced to three years in prison.
He had pleaded guilty to the charge, based on a speech and interview he gave in Austria in 1989.

"I made a mistake when I said there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz," he told the court.

But he insisted: "In no way did I deny the killings of millions of people by the Nazis."

Fears that the court case would provoke right-wing demonstrations and counter-protests did not materialise, the BBC's Ben Brown at the court in Vienna said.

Mr Irving arrived in the court room handcuffed, wearing a blue suit, and carrying a copy of Hitler's War, one of many books he has written on the Nazis, and which challenges the extent of the Holocaust.

Mr Irving was arrested in November when he went to Austria to give a lecture to a far-right student fraternity. He has been held in custody since then.

[Goatse]

I don't think they should be jailed... it could actually generate sympathy for their cause. The best way to get rid of neonazism is not to get rid of the people, but the way of thought.

[ice-picked]

i agree with ScottishPinko
as stalin said "Death solves all problems - no man, no problem"
if we eliminate neo-nazis then we no longer have a neo-nazi problem personaly i would have perfered the old nazis as compared to the ones we have now
neo-nazis no longer have a solid leader or cause. they lack stability

[drain.you]

To be fair, killing nazis "could actually generate sympathy for their cause" aswell.
I think people have the right to deny the holocaust happened. Of course, I accept that it happened and the majority of the world does but if people want to believe weird things, then why not? Its not like he is proposing a holocaust or justifying one.
If I want to believe that chickens don't exist then I am able to. Whats the difference for believing anything else, its little harm to anyone though I can understand many survivors of the holocaust and relatives of the victims of the holocaust could be offended but me believing in communism offends people. So what?

[Janus]

If I want to believe that chickens don't exist then I am able to. Whats the difference for believing anything else, its little harm to anyone though I can understand many survivors of the holocaust and relatives of the victims of the holocaust could be offended but me believing in communism offends people. So what?

Your analogy is a bit strange. I think that the main arguement against Holocaust deniers is that when we forget the past, we are doomed to repeat it. That is one thing that these terrible tragedies have taught us and a lesson that shouldn't be forgotten. Since Austria was part of the Reich, I guess their policies stem from the fact that they want to make known to the world that they don't accept anything that has Nazi tendencies.

[drain.you]

Your analogy is a bit strange.

lol sorry, was wanting to sound obscure.

I think that the main arguement against Holocaust deniers is that when we forget the past, we are doomed to repeat it. That is one thing that these terrible tragedies have taught us and a lesson that shouldn't be forgotten. Since Austria was part of the Reich, I guess their policies stem from the fact that they want to make known to the world that they don't accept anything that has Nazi tendencies.

Well yeah but not many countries accept Nazi tendencies. I know there would be uproar here on RevLeft, if the Russia was arresting people for having communist tendencies.
Sure lock someone away if they actually do something but for having an opinion? I didn't think the Thought police were here already.

[ReD_ReBeL]

Yes we should dislike David Irving due to his support of the Aparthied system in South Africa and for his another views. But we also have to get the facts right..David Irving denied The Halocaust in 1989 but his ideas also evolved into denying the use of Gas Chambers. He says it was systematic not Nazi policy to kill jews,But these wheres atrocities not systematic killings. too my knowledge Irving is not a Nazi.
Heres a sentence he used about this matter....
I don't think there was any overall Reich policy to kill the Jews. If there was, they would have been killed and there would not be now so many millions of survivors. And believe me, I am glad for every survivor that there was

Heres some evidence though, which suggests he tolerates but yet is slightly racist.
Here a Poem by Irving..

"I am a Baby Aryan
Not Jewish or Sectarian
I have no plans to marry an
Ape or Rastafarian."

Another piece of info showing his tolerance but yet slightly racist views.

"I am not anti-coloured, take it from me; nothing pleases me more than when I arrive at an airport, or a station, or a seaport, and I see a coloured family there — the black father, the black wife and the black children….When I see these families arriving at the airport I am happy, and when I see them leaving at London airport I am happy.
But if there is one thing that gets up my nose, I must admit, it is this — the way…the thing is when I am down in Torquay and I switch on my television and I see one of them reading our news to us. It is our news and they’re reading it to me. If I was a chauvinist I would say I object even to seeing women reading our news to us.
...But now we have women reading out news to us. If they could perhaps have their own news which they were reading to us, I suppose [Laughter], it would be very interesting.
For the time being, for a transitional period I'd be prepared to accept that the BBC should have a dinner-jacketed gentleman reading the important news to us, following by a lady reading all the less important news, followed by Trevor McDonald giving us all the latest news about the muggings and the drug busts..."


Regarding the questions of should he be arrested or not.
By his works alone , No he should not be arrested.
1.he has not incited racial hatred
2.he has not actualy claimed support for Hitler and the Nazi's
3.He is a world war 2 historian. He reports on evidence HE has found for archives.
4.he may hold some racist views. but as i said he has incited violence towards them.

[somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback]

I hope you're kidding? Have you even read what you quoted from him? Do you understand what he means?

I don't think there was any overall Reich policy to kill the Jews.

Holocaust denial

"I am a Baby Aryan
Not Jewish or Sectarian
I have no plans to marry an
Ape or Rastafarian."

Comparing coloured people to apes

nothing pleases me more than when I arrive at an airport, or a station, or a seaport, and I see a coloured family there — the black father, the black wife and the black children….When I see these families arriving at the airport I am happy, and when I see them leaving at London airport I am happy.

I hope you see his irony: He wants "those blacks" to leave.

But if there is one thing that gets up my nose, I must admit, it is this — the way…the thing is when I am down in Torquay and I switch on my television and I see one of them reading our news to us. It is our news and they’re reading it to me.

You do realise he's talking about coloured people here, right? He's mad because a black man reads the news to him!

followed by Trevor McDonald giving us all the latest news about the muggings and the drug busts..."

Here, he clearly states that black people are criminals, mugger, thieves etc. to him.

1.he has not incited racial hatred

Lol?

2.he has not actualy claimed support for Hitler and the Nazi's

...Though he obviously holds the same ideas.

3.He is a world war 2 historian. He reports on evidence HE has found for archives.

The same ridiculous lie every holocaust denier (or revisionist, as they call themselves) uses: That they're historians and their "research" is in the interest of historian research. It's bullshit.

4.he may hold some racist views. but as i said he has [not] incited violence towards them.

He holds dozens of racist views, and though he doesn't literatilly incite violence towards them, he clearly isn't opposed to it. Read between the lines.

[adenoid hynkel]

Irving was arrested by the Austrian police in the southern state of Styria on 11 November 2005, under a warrant issued in 1989. Irving knew that he was banned from Austria, in the words of his partner, Bente Hogh: "He was not jailed just for his views but because he's banned from Austria and still went. David doesn't take advice from anyone. He thought it was a bit of fun, to provoke a little bit."[8]

Within two weeks of his arrest, Irving asserted through his lawyer that he ACKNOWLEDGED the existence of Nazi-era gas chambers. On 20 February 2006 [9] he PLEADED GUILTY to the charge of denying the Holocaust from two speeches in 1989. He said this was what he believed, until he later saw the personal files of Adolf Eichmann, the chief organiser of the Holocaust. "I said that then based on my knowledge at the time, BUT BY 1991 WHEN I CAME ACROSS THE EICHMANN PAPERS, I WAS'NT SAYING THAT ANYMORE AND I WOULDN'T SAY THAT NOW," Irving told the court. "THE NAZIS DID MURDER MILLIONS OF JEWS", "I AM ABSOLUTELY WITHOUT DOUBT THAT THE HOLOCAUST TOOK PLACE."

Irving was found guilty of Holocaust denial and sentenced to three years jail. Irving declared himself shocked by the verdict. He reportedly had already purchased a plane ticket home to London, believing the court would "not be stupid enough" to lock him up. [10]

Many feared that Irving could become a martyr for far-right activists and the issue also raised a debate on what grounds freedom of speech could be denied in democratic countries. Upon hearing of Irving's sentence to three years' imprisonment, noted Irving critic Deborah Lipstadt said, "I am not happy when censorship wins, and I don't believe in winning battles via censorship… The way of fighting Holocaust deniers is with history and with truth." [11].

Currently, Irving is in the Josefstadt Prison in central Vienna, awaiting appeal. He has stated that he will use time spent in prison to write his memoirs, entitled "Irving's War".



I think that this text from wikipedia should be taken into consideration.

[Tormented by Treachery]

I'm not a nazi and I think Irving should be shot, but -

I have a problem when any government gets into the realm of "thought control" and censorship.

[Simotix]

Denying there was a Holocaust is not only plain idiocy, but shows the utter stupidity of a person. How can a person be so blind to know accept the fact that racism and greed killed (and still kills) thousands?

[Janus]

How can a person be so blind to know accept the fact that racism and greed killed (and still kills) thousands?

He didn't go as far as to deny the Holocaust itself. He denied the use of gas chambers in the concentration camps.

I have a problem when any government gets into the realm of "thought control" and censorship.

I see your point but you have to understand that Austria and Germany were the countries from which the Nazi ideology spewed out of. Therefore, it would be bad publicity if they were seen as lax and indifferent towards Nazi tendencies within their respective nations.

[Janus]

How can a person be so blind to know accept the fact that racism and greed killed (and still kills) thousands?

He didn't go as far as to deny the Holocaust itself. He denied the use of gas chambers in the concentration camps.

I have a problem when any government gets into the realm of "thought control" and censorship.

I see your point but you have to understand that Austria and Germany were the countries from which the Nazi ideology spewed out of. Therefore, it would damage their image if they were seen as lax and indifferent towards Nazi tendencies within their respective nations.

[bezdomni]

Originally posted by Janus@Feb 27 2006, 04:25 AM

He didn't go as far as to deny the Holocaust itself. He denied the use of gas chambers in the concentration camps.

How the hell do you expect the holocaust happened? Loving them to death?

[diamond_rabbit]

Originally posted by drain.you@Feb 20 2006, 04:31 PM
I think people have the right to deny the holocaust happened. Of course, I accept that it happened and the majority of the world does but if people want to believe weird things, then why not? Its not like he is proposing a holocaust or justifying one.

If I want to believe that chickens don't exist then I am able to. Whats the difference for believing anything else, its little harm to anyone though

I can understand many survivors of the holocaust and relatives of the victims of the holocaust could be offended but me believing in communism offends people. So what?

it is not just that survivors and their children and grandchildren are offended by holocaust denial. it's a huge deal. can you imagine how it feels to have all your family killed and to live through the horrors of the holocaust as a jew and then have people saying that it never happened? what do you think that does to traumatized people? my grandparents were holocaust survivors and my father is a child survivor. let me tell you that the horrors live on through families of survivors. my grandparents spent their lives believing that there was no safety in this world. to hear nazis and those who support such ludicrous claims about the holocaust never happening adds to this feeling of danger. maybe it's not a big deal to people who aren't so effected by this history. but believe me, there is harm caused by these claims.

having said that, i'm a prison abolitionist, and i don't think the answer is to lock people up. but let's not minimize how fucked -up this behaviour is!!!

[Atlas Swallowed]

I agree Holocaust denial is ignorant and idiotic but so is being jailed 10 years for a thought-crime. If I said Stalin never killed anyone and wrote a book about should I be jailed? If not does Jewish life have more value than anyone elses in your opinion? Is this not a form of racism in itself?

Irving should be disproven(won't take much) mocked and laughed at but not thrown in jail.

[Janus]

How the hell do you expect the holocaust happened?

The Nazis used other methods, of course. Irving simply denied the use of gas chambers, he didn't state that the Holocaust was a Zionist hoax or anything like that.

[bezdomni]

Yeah, he only said that there were no gas chambers. Without the gas chambers, mass executions would have taken a long time and consumed more valuable resources. So we can either infer two things from a lack of gas chambers:
1) Less jews actually died (ie, the holocaust wasn't so bad).
2) The nazis spent a lot of time, money and resources by killing the same amount of jews.

Both options are obviously false, therefore we know that gas chambers were indeed used.

To deny the use of gas chambers is to deny a large part of the holocaust. Denying a part of the holocaust is still holocaust denial. We don't need to sympathize with these garbage liars.

[diamond_rabbit]

Originally posted by Atlas Swallowed@Mar 1 2006, 01:18 PM
I agree Holocaust denial is ignorant and idiotic but so is being jailed 10 years for a thought-crime. If I said Stalin never killed anyone and wrote a book about should I be jailed? If not does Jewish life have more value than anyone elses in your opinion? Is this not a form of racism in itself?

the crime is denying atrocities that have completely demolished people's lives and that have lasting impact on children and grandchildren of those people (intergenerational trauma). nobody here is suggesting that a jewish life has more value than any other life. of course that would be racist. any parrallel situation is equally abhorrent no matter who the victims are.