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What are comrades feelings on the wall-to-wall existence of soft porn in western society?
Is it the act of "liberated females", or is it continued exploitation?
A lot of people seem to think that porn is just harmless fun, but considering the social impact it has, in terms of treating women as meat, I'd disagree.
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female exploitation? woman in the porn industry get payed far more than male porn stars. Plus no1 has put a gun to there head and forced them to be a porn star. being an opressed female is terrible because you are female by birth and have no other choice. on the other hand being a female porn star is by choice and very well paid and probably joined the industry because they think fucking infront of a camera is an adrenaline rush or sumthing of that sort. If anything men are being the most exploited in the porn industry. Woman are the majority of porn pin-ups because in my opinion men are more into watching porn than woman are. My advice to people who have a big problem with porn is....JUST DONT WATCH IT
I think the exploitation of women in pornography is a reflection of society, not a reflection of the porn industry. I have no problem with pornography. Certain types of pornography exist because people desire them. If equality is achieved, I think people will still enjoy pornography, just in a different way.
In Japan, pornography laws were or are lower than in most places, and, perhaps as a result, sexual crimes against women went down.
I think that pornography is the sexual exploitation of women for the pleasure of men. I do not look at pornography because I find it quite gross. It also makes some women feel as if they must look like the girls in the porn. It turns women into sex objects. In a post-revolution society people would have a lot of casual sex, thus reducing masturbation and most likely eliminating porn.
i have nothing against pornography, what IS wrong however is how "beauty" is commodified, cappies put a pricetag on everythin, its sick.
in some places yes, but it very well might be that in other places sex would still be something "taboo"
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Freedom without equality is privilege - Equality without freedom is a barracks
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we haz got to get fucked up on the grog, and then revolt...if the lessons of the Paris Commune has taught as such, the working class cannot lay hold of the ready made bourgeoisie alcohol, they must smash it, and get pissed on cheap methylated spirits.
holler,
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how the hell is communism or socialism or whtever other similar ideology going to be able to reduce masturbation and increase casual sex? Personally i dont wank more becoz i live in a capitalist country or have less sex because i live in a capitalist country. Personally ii would think there would be more sex in a capitalist country because kids grow up watching shows and whtever else portraying that being a virgin is 'uncool' thus meaning these kids are going to go out rushing to lose there virginity. And in a communist country these same kids will be taught self-appreciation and will learn to respect there fellow people and wait for the rigyht person. Although i say this i actualy truely believe that a political system wont change sexual relations unless the government is sum sort religious fundamentalists like that of iran or if the vatican ruled a country.
I think you exaggerate. There is a good deal of overt sexuality in public discourse these days...certainly far more than was the case when I was young.
But porn? You still have to "seek it out" according to your tastes. And it generally "costs extra".
My subjective impression is that it reflects an objective situation.
People would like to have lots of casual sex with attractive partners. But in the HIV-AIDS era, this is difficult (and often very expensive) to manage.
So..."virtual sex" -- of which porn ("soft" and "hard") is just a part. Look at "telephone sex", for example. Or at "strip clubs". All ways to "have sex" without really having sex.
In a way it resembles "fast food" -- how to "eat" without really eating.
As to the people who work in the porn industry, they are, of course, exploited like all workers.
That's just "part of the package" of living in a capitalist society and having to sell your labor power in order to survive.
Is it "worse" than other kinds of exploitation? It's probably worse than some and better than others.
Does it condition the way we think about men and women? Sure does...like everything else we see in capitalist society.
Would it be better if people did not think of their own sexuality and that of others as a commodity in the "marketplace"? Yep.
Is there any "special thing" that we could "do about it"?
Probably not...except make a revolution, of course.
You are, I'm afraid, "behind the times".
"Virginity" is indeed widely considered "uncool" and for a very self-evident reason: it's more fun to be sexually active than not to be. And the idea that there is a "right person" is a 19th century myth...dating from the time when parentally-arranged marriages went out of fashion.
Once a cure for AIDS is discovered, I predict an "explosion" of casual sex.
In a communist society, the only reason anyone would make porn is for the fun of it. So I expect it will decline significantly.
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I generally laugh when porn gets called "Exploitation" - it's hardly so.
What is the difference between female porn and needing a female actor for a movie? The only difference is that (well, in some cases at least) the female in nude in one and not the other. So should we stop making movies? Or use male actors for female parts? No..... that's not the way to slove the problem, as there is no problem.
And porn doesn't make men worried about their penis' size when compared to the stars'? Chances are this is more usual than what you just mentioned.
Does it also turn male pornstars into "sex objects"? And what about gay male porn? Is there also any correlation between men being treated as "objects" and porn which involves men? Or with women?
Stop applauding, the spectacle is everywhere
Sure, we can see how women are exploited for their beauty in pornography, however, we can also look at it as a celebration of their beauty. The only truly negative effect one can imagine would be that it rienforces negative stereotypes about beauty in women. As long as we don't turn sex in to some kind of market, however, it shouldn't be that bad. A freely hosted state pornography website, for instance? The alternatives are where we get shaky. In the Soviet Union and China, pornography was illegalized, resulting in HUGE increases in rape rates and prostitution. Now, which is worse? Pornography, or rape? Hmm... I wonder!
The most MARXIST solution, as opposed to blatant pragmatism as employed above, would be to "humanize" sex. Make sex a wonderful and beautiful thing and make nudity something that is expressed enough that it isn't a big deal. In countries where such sexual openness is expressed, people live much happier, and such concepts as nude beaches can exist without hordes of men coming in and raping all the women, as might happen in the United States. Catching my drift at all or am I rambling?
Comrade Martin
Educate & Liberate
"The free development of each is the condition for the free development of all." - Karl Marx
"The society that will organize production on the basis of a free and equal association of the producers will put the whole machinery of state where it will then belong: into the Museum of Antiquities, by the side of the spinning wheel and the bronze axe." - Frederich Engels
True some pornography is expoitive, however pornography as a whole isn't. In some instances women do things like star in pornography and strip as an act of sexual liberation, also pornography is not just women for men, lesbians enjoy it also as well as gays.
Sidenote: Why do we have to differentiate between lesbians and gays? They're both gay... And you forgot bisexuals!
Comrade Martin
Educate & Liberate
"The free development of each is the condition for the free development of all." - Karl Marx
"The society that will organize production on the basis of a free and equal association of the producers will put the whole machinery of state where it will then belong: into the Museum of Antiquities, by the side of the spinning wheel and the bronze axe." - Frederich Engels
It is an act caused by the economic system in which it is created disguised as harmless fun and entertainment.
I agree.
Pornography in this society is generally the exploitation of women for the pleasure of men.
You find sex gross?
Wrong. Porn doesn't make women feel this way. Society does. Women in this society have a low self esteem that can only be filled with products that will make them feel better (whether it be make-up, diet pills, diet plans, etc...). Thus a new, and immensely profitable market was created. This feeling of low self esteem is perpetuated through the porn industry, the movie industry, the media, etc... It has even infiltrated every-day life; if you worked at a grocery store and say, a lady had a coupon that was expired but was still trying to use it what would you do? What if she's attractive? What if she isn't? Of course, how you or anyone else here answers that question doesn't really matter, as it is rather obvious what the common person would do. The point is that the problem is in the economic system and not the porn industry.
That is a rather radical claim. Why would porn be eliminated? Sure, porn as a commodity would, but what about as a use value? What about as a sex-aid? What about for masturbation if someone wants to? Why would it be eliminated?
I'm afraid that that probabgly won't happen inside a capitalist system. As Chris Rock said (and I paraphrase) "They don't cure diseases, they just try to make it possible for you to live with them." It is much more profitable to sell pills that keeps a disease "down" than to sell pills that cure that disease.
Good point! This is actually a newly-created market, created by lowering the self-esteem of men by promoting the myth of "the bigger the better". After this myth was firmly in place, it was possible to sell enhancing pills, pumps, surgery, etc... Thus, a new market is born.
I agree with that, Marxism needs to undo thousands of years of capitalist "taboos."
And yes I am the same BKY.
My thoughts exactly.
I agree, porn can be just as damaging to men as it is to women.
All porn turns the actors in it into objects.
I find sex between 'fake' pornstars in movies and pictures quite gross. I want real sex, not some glamorized version of it.
Porn plays a big part in it. The porn industry as a whole reflects the economic system quite well. Exploitation of women for pleasure : exploitation of third world workers for pleasure. It's all materialism.
There would be less masturbation because instead of a hand, it would be easier to aquire a vagina or a butt for a guy to stick his penis in. In a highly developed communist society there would be more casual sex because it would not be taboo like it is in many societies today. Of course people could masturbate if they wanted, but I'm just predicting that there will be less, because there would be more casual sex. I am for no restrictions in a communist society, but I'm just predicting that some things will gradually phase out, porn being one of them.
I think that he meant that the cure will be found in a post-revolution society. Cures can be found in capitalism, but they are rare occasions and are usually very expensive in the beginning. Just look at all the diseases that once ran rampant in the 19th century that now have nearly disappeared.
I believe that pornography is fine, as long as it doesn't objectify women. Derogitory words like "****" and "slut" and "whore" are awful. There's nothing wrong with two people making love. When you slap on racist and sexist terms on it, then we have a problem.
Oh yeah, I'm going to make a thing about "asian fetish".
Peace.
Discuss.
In a post revolution society, the only incentive people will have to make porn will be for their own pleasure. The pressures of an easy way to make a living by selling your looks out will be gone.
After the revolution it will be. Maybe not now, though, since many men and women are pressured into it (I assume.)
There's male porn as well. I don't see how you can accuse it of being the cause of discrimination against women because of this.
EDIT: Could an admin enable "Fast reply"? It doesn't seem to be enabled in this section of the forum. Thanks.
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I posted this on the second thread of this discussion but fits here too...
These topics were discussed before, there are several different parts to sexual exploitation of women you mentioned.
Most men make the mistake of looking at pornography only in terms of the women being beautiful (usually artificially, or with staging) and therefore in terms of competition, an unattainable goal for women feeding into low values of self-esteem.
This drive of competition among women pushing towards market capitalism is true of course in advertising in the selling of products, and in the garbage that passes for "popular culture" according to the media.
However, in looking at the sexual exploitation of pornography, prostitution, and sexual roles of women there are many other factors of far greater impact:
1. Transmission of visual reference of women as sexual tools subservient to men. ( Look at most pornography and it reduces women to objects rather than subjects, this dehumanizes them into a product not to admire, but to abuse and use.
2. Abuse of sex workers in general. That is alienation of labor in the extreme where the workers become psychologically detached from their own bodies.
Studies have shown that sex workers predominantly tend to be victims of child abuse and mostly childhood sexual abuse. Their ability to "detach" from their physical bodies allows them to allow their bodies to become objects of consumption. Even Howard Stern is aware of this fact and regularly polls porn stars for sexual abuse on air, the few that deny it, have later admitted they were in fact raped, but did not want it to define them as a person. From this we can see a direct correlation between rape and future sexual exploitation through the capitalist system. That people who subscribe to socialist ideals believe that money could repair this horror is ignorance at its most profound.
Many people have a rosy idea of sex work, sex work tends to involve mass production, the mass production in this situation involves either repeated intercourse in such a fashion that it can cause physical repercussions, or "dancing" with a great number of "customers" that causes alienation from the means of production, aka the dancer's body.
3. Abuse of workers in terms as a labor market with few rights. There are members here promoting organizations such as Exotic Dancers Union. The reality is there is a great deal of corruption and organized crime involved with the sex industry. These organizations threaten and kill women and sometimes men that try to stand up to them. Over 1 million women, some men, and children go missing each year in the global sex trade. These individuals are essentially sold into slavery. From a Marxist perspective this is a huge labor issue, from a humanist perspective this is a huge moral issue, in that we regard ourselves in many ways beyond the age of slavery. As Marxists we know that this is not true and there are many subtle levels of exploitation. But the kidnapping of women and children for the global sex trade, as sanctified by the U.N. in locations such as Bosnia for service of global troops is the lowest form of human indignity.
4. Many global 500 companies make a huge profit on the sex trade figures such as $500 million annually just for single companies such as Clear Channel and GM have come up, with no public reprocussions.
From a Marxist perspective this kind of exploitation of sex workers could not continue, we are speaking of billions of dollars in stolen labor. There needs to be a radical departure from the status quo. The present state of the industry would have to be entirely dismantled and restructured in a completely different form, not money based.
Lily Burana who wrote "Strip City: A Strippers Journey Across the U.S." said that as long as stripping is connected to money, that is earning a paycheck it will always be a tool of exploitation of women, no matter how you slice it. There will always be a limit on the "freedom" as long as women are doing it to pay the rent.
If women chose to dance erotically, and explore this form of dance in a public arena this is fine, it is even fine to receive tributes of affection from admiring men, this has been going on back to John the Baptist, however, these gifts need not be monetary, and if these women had availability to education you would see a system very different, perhaps closer to Geisha or Indian Temple Dancers where skill and intelligence were required rather than just sexual servitude.
Some of these dancers in ages past, it might be remembered became very powerful heads of state, especially in India. It may be that the current frame of prostitution and subjecation. To undermine this female power base, religion was often used as a tool of subjecation for these women. Hence the continued emphasize on women's purity around the world as a tool of subjecation, while young males are encouraged to explore the world around them, young girls are not.
5. The use of violence against women in the imagery of pornography.
It is important to seperate sexuality and sexual freedom from sex as labor for money. These are two really seperate things, as anyone who has ever faked it can tell you, it makes you feel less human.
Cheers Pandora
<span style=\'color:blue\'> "The necrophilous person can relate to an object--a flower or a person--only if he possesses it; hence a threat to his possession is a threat to himself . . He loves control, and in the act of controlling he kills life." <span style=\'color:red\'>[Erich Fromm, "The Heart of Man"] </span></span>
<span style=\'colorurple\'> It is not the unloved who intitiate disaffection, but those who cannot love because they only love themselves."</span> <span style=\'color:red\'>Paulo Freire, Pedagogy of the Oppressed</span>
Then why are we somehow concentrating on that which affects women?
Stop applauding, the spectacle is everywhere
As easy as it seems to make the link between porn and expoitation of women, it seems to me that there has been a direct relationship between the increase of the former and the decrease of the latter.
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