Thread: Self-improvement is masturbation

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  1. #1
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    In South Vietnam in the 1960s, a man burned alive.

    The man had gotten out of his light blue Austin in a busy Saigon intersection. Doused with gasoline, he quietly sat down in the street in a meditative position. Then, calmly, he struck a match.

    A cloud of fire reached away from him. His body withered and charred as the flames whipped across him. He sat perfectly still, meditating until he was nothing more than ashes in the wind.

    His name was Thich Quang Duc, and he had burned himself alive. This is self-immolation, the ultimate sacrifice, and the most beautiful act of protest.

    A Catholic dictator named Ngo Dinh Diem ruled South Vietnam in the 1960s. Diem destroyed brothels and opium dens, banned abortion and divorce, and killed adulterers. And with the aid of the US, Diem had started genocide against Buddhists.

    Thich Quang Duc was a Buddhist monk. His fire was a protest against Diem, against Catholicism, against capitalism, against the system. His act made everyone stop for a moment, it made everyone in that intersection drop whatever the hell they were doing and stare at the burning man. Just maybe, they started to think it was time for some change.

    The first lady of South Vietnam laughed and said, “I will clap hands at seeing another monk barbeque show”.

    Burning himself alive was not the first thing Thich tried. First, he had given Diem a simple message, “Enforce a policy of religious equality”. Diem responded. Diem responded by clamping down on the city with martial law, rounding up Buddhists and closing pagodas.

    Thich’s fire sparked a firestorm. Other Buddhist monks across the country burned themselves alive. Four Americans burned themselves alive to protest the Vietnam War, and were honored by the people of Vietnam.

    We look back on this and what can we say? We can say it worked. Diem was defeated. The US was defeated in Vietnam. Or we can look back on it and say these people were insane, and they didn’t make a difference. Because nothing matters anyways.

    In 1970, a Basque nationalist set himself on fire and threw himself on the Spanish dictator Franco.

    A man in India set himself on fire in 1990, leading to a movement against discrimination.

    In the 1990s students set themselves on fire in Korea to protest authority.

    In 2003 six people set themselves on fire in the Czech Republic to protest everything.

    You may have everything to loose or nothing to loose but your chains, but self-immolation is the greatest form of protest.

    “I was to see that sight again, but once was enough. Flames were coming from a human being; his body was slowly withering and shriveling up, his head blackening and charring. In the air was the smell of burning human flesh; human beings burn surprisingly quickly. Behind me I could hear the sobbing of the Vietnamese who were now gathering. I was too shocked to cry, too confused to take notes or ask questions, too bewildered to even think.... As he burned he never moved a muscle, never uttered a sound, his outward composure in sharp contrast to the wailing people around him.” –American journalist who watched Thich’s fire
    <span style=\'color:red\'>When I&#39;m God, everyone dies.
    Killer Coke / Marilyn Manson / Dope Army / Getting Away With Murder</span>
  2. #2
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    It&#39;s not bad but lacking in any kind of structured argument. So far all you did was describe a few incidents, but you haven&#39;t put forward your arguments really. I agree with your point of view, but you haven&#39;t really said much.

    I&#39;m not trying to put you down or anything, just my 2 cents.
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    You&#39;re right man I know its not the best shit I&#39;ve written, thanks anyway.
    <span style=\'color:red\'>When I&#39;m God, everyone dies.
    Killer Coke / Marilyn Manson / Dope Army / Getting Away With Murder</span>
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    Originally posted by Punk Rocker@Dec 13 2005, 10:43 PM
    You&#39;re right man I know its not the best shit I&#39;ve written, thanks anyway.
    Anytime. Try to edit it, i&#39;d like to see it with more arguments etc, I think it has potential.
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    i&#39;ve been to the spot where the monk lived - it&#39;s a nice place as far as pagodas go and the car he drove to his self-immolation is still there. i&#39;m not sure that he did the act in saigon - the pagoda is near hue, which is quite a long way north.

    and i pretty sure that this


    Thich Quang Duc was a Buddhist monk. His fire was a protest against Diem, against Catholicism, against capitalism, against the system.
    is not correct - his protest was against buddhists being repressed for their religous views and was not anticaptalist
    To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and to endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty; to find the best in others; to leave the world a bit better whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is to have succeeded.

    Ralph Waldo Emerson
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    Originally posted by Punk Rocker@Dec 11 2005, 06:11 AM
    You may have everything to loose or nothing to loose but your chains, but self-immolation is the greatest form of protest.
    Yeah, it&#39;s also a great form to escape from oppression...once you&#39;re dead you don&#39;t need a revolution to stop being oppressed

    Was there any real significative change because of people protesting by setting themselves on fire? I doubt so.
    Stop applauding, the spectacle is everywhere
  7. #7
    Pyro
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    So.....are you guys gonna set fire to yourselves as well and burn to death to try and prove a point? Surely if all your kind burn themselves, will the world be a better place? I doubt it. If you think about it, it&#39;s like being a suicide bomber without an enemy target. What they achieved was just their own death, which is as wrong as killing others. Nobody asked or demanded them to end their lives. Any ending of life is wrong. Life is more sacred than protest. Everyone has a hard life, if not, it will be a hard after-life. Have faith, your test is living with it but never giving up like that. Nobody likes war. There are no religious wars. It is all about money, control and domination. Those who are victims are alway innocent. Those who kill suffer the consequences many times more. You might not believe it, or even know it, but judgement comes to everyone, for their life&#39;s actions.[COLOR=gray]
  8. #8
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    Originally posted by Pyro@Dec 23 2005, 11:15 AM
    So.....are you guys gonna set fire to yourselves as well and burn to death to try and prove a point? Surely if all your kind burn themselves, will the world be a better place? I doubt it. If you think about it, it&#39;s like being a suicide bomber without an enemy target. What they achieved was just their own death, which is as wrong as killing others. Nobody asked or demanded them to end their lives. Any ending of life is wrong. Life is more sacred than protest. Everyone has a hard life, if not, it will be a hard after-life. Have faith, your test is living with it but never giving up like that. Nobody likes war. There are no religious wars. It is all about money, control and domination. Those who are victims are alway innocent. Those who kill suffer the consequences many times more. You might not believe it, or even know it, but judgement comes to everyone, for their life&#39;s actions.[COLOR=gray]
    If you&#39;re protesting the senseless killing (or oppression) of thousands of innocent people, like who died in the Vietnam War (or are being prosecuted for their religious beliefs), then it does not represent death that is either needless or meaningless.

    You would be representing just one more victim on the heap, next to the masses of people discreetly killed in villages and battlefields, or in internment camps and the like. Like these people, you would be dying in opposition to, and at the hands of oppressive military regimes. But your death, being voluntary and public, forces the issue to come to the forefront. After watching someone burn themself alive in the street, you find out WHAT they died FOR, and maybe it impacts you, and the people around you. When you realise that The People&#39;s freedom is being jeopardized, then maybe you will decide to finally become aware and RISE AGAINST...

    Self-sacrifice brings awareness of the gravity of the issue being protested: that people are already being killed and tortured, or prosecuted for their religious beliefs. Because the people being vicitmized seem so far away action is otherwise unlikely to be taken. But when a person burns him/herself alive in the middle of a public intersection, it brings the issue "close to home", and certainly gets some attention.
    Concerning non-violence, it is criminal to teach a man not to defend himself when he is the constant victim of brutal attacks. -Malcolm X

    The best way to predict the future is to create it.
  9. #9
    Comarada
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    It would be typical for someone with a religious background to do something like kill themselves over protest. Likewise, the Tibetan Buddhists ran towards the Chinese soldiers that came to slaughter them... The difference between this religious idealistic action and true revolutionaries is that revolutionaries put emphasis on organizing mass movements; not on the act of an individual.

    Aren&#39;t we all lucky that Che and Fidel found more solace in real revolutionary work than in selfless/selfish acts of defiance.
  10. #10
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    This act may have been dramatic and "world-historical" under some very specific and not-likely-to-be-often-repeated circumstances -- but it is fundamentally un-working-class and un-marxist to its core. This lone, despairing protest occurred in a society with no other non-dangerous outlet for dissent or debate (I remember it, actually. It was news when I was a kid) -- certainly anything approaching a socialist protest would have been met with a hail of bullets and batons. And the point&#39;s already been made that the man had very narrow petit-bourgeois grievances.

    This was actually a *reactionary* act, which just so happened to crystalize into a cascade of progressive events that were _already_ in motion -- simply not visibly so at that moment. The man himself likely felt that motion, and acted upon it emotionally. Personally. As do all those who take this deseprate route. But he and they certainly are not representative of organized mass struggle, which in this case was the true force which eventually freed the vietnamese people -- a struggle which didn&#39;t actually require this single act in order to advance itself anyway. But that lone act was certainly the &#39;foto-op of the year&#39;. Guerrilla theater. Time Magazine cover stuff.

    Frankly, I consider this essay to be poor marxism (assuming the author isn&#39;t misguided because of other allegiances); and if I were an instructor marking this based on its logic alone, I would have to give you a failing grade. Sorry. Enuff of this nihilistic gibberish masquerading as revolutionary praxis.
  11. #11
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    to conquer ones own mind is the greatest victory of all.
  12. #12
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    so the buddhist were just protesting people being hurt.. they weren&#39;t on either side, they were trying to understand both sides and make the sides understand each other
    ("Working for Peace" chapter,Being Peace , Thich Nhat Hahn)
    it&#39;s a really good book too
  13. #13
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    as for people saying the monk was acting out personally and emotionally, that&#39;s impossible. buddhists believe there is no such thing as the individual, everyone is responsible and connected to everyone else...kind of like communism. the beliefs are more complicated than simply he got carried away in protest. he thought he was those suffering in vietnam, he was the protest, he was the fire. plus, someone abled to be carried away emotionally couldn&#39;t be that kind of monk; he just sat silently which shows he was very very practiced in meditation.
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    what was pyro thinking saying there have been no religous wars? can you say deluded
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    What do you gain by setting yourself on fire? You are putting all the potential you have to REALLY do something to an end. Self Destructiveness is NOT the best way of protest. In fact I don&#39;t think there is one. But surely other methods like civil disobedience are much more effective, less morbid, and have a much greater impact on society. THey last longer and can be joined by others. If you burn yourself alive, along with everyone that believes in your ideals, then your ideals die, and opposition wins. Smart? hmm...
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    You should also mentioned (although sadly a lot of people aren&#39;t aware of) the guy that lit himself up under the McNamara&#39;s office at the Pentagon as people were streaming out of work.

    That also had a fairly remarkable effect.

    Norman Morrison, a Baltimore Quaker, in the Pentagon parking lot doused himself with gasoline and lit the fire. His sacrifice had little effect on American public opinion but had a traumatic impact on other Quaker peace activists and a lasting influence on Robert McNamara. His daughter visited Vietnam last year and found that her father there is a martyr-hero, a symbol of reconciliation.
    Verily poor as we are in democracy, how can we give of it to the world? A democracy conceived in the military servitude of the masses, in their economic enslavement, and nurtured in their tears and blood, is not democracy at all

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  17. #17
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    I&#39;ve got a better idea. Instead of lighting ourselves on fire let&#39;s light the nearest bourgeouisie on fire.
    "Love Other Human Beings like you would Yourself"

    -- Ho Chi Minh

    "We Don't Care who gets elected, because whoever it is will be Overthrown"

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