Understanding the link between class and religion

[which doctor]

Could someone explain to me the link between class and religion?

Is there a link?

I've always thought that religion affects everyone regardless of class. I do however see that religion often keeps the working class working and submitting themselves to the rich because they think they will be "rewarded" in the afterlife.

Let's see what you can do.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Fist of Blood
Could someone explain to me the link between class and religion?

Prior to the rise of capitalism, the "religious leaders" of any given society were part of the ruling class.

In feudal society, for example, this was expressed in the phrase: "Lords Temporal and Lords Spiritual".

In the course of breaking the earthly power of feudal lords, capitalist revolutionaries also broke the power of the spiritual lords. Indeed, if you go back and look at what some of the 18th and 19th century radical bourgeois ideologues wrote, they really were nearly as hostile to religion as I am.

The capitalist class of today has changed a lot. Not only do they confer special privileges on successfully established religions ("tax breaks" for example) but they seem to be increasingly attracted to religious "explanations" for objective social phenomena.

When the neo-conservative reactionaries call for a return to "traditional American values", they seem to mean a society in which religious concerns played an enormous role in determining public policy.

The core value of all successful religions is, of course, obedience to authority. This is what the believing masses are always instructed to do.

Thus, religion has always been either a ruling class "tool" or otherwise a part of the ruling class itself.

And when there is a proletarian revolution and new popular organs of self-determination are established, you can be sure that some of those opportunistic vermin will crawl out from under their rocks with their "boilerplate offer": you make the people worship our way and we'll make the faithful obey you.

The communist answer is no.

Make that FUCK NO!

[polemi-super-cised]

In feudal society, for example, this was expressed in the phrase: "Lords Temporal and Lords Spiritual".

Are you sure you mean to distinguish the two? Many monarchs (Henry VIII) were considered (or considered themselves) "God's representative" on Earth, like the Pope. The spiritual and temporal worlds were often fused into one, with spiritual power a tool of the feudal ruling classes, in that it specifically legitimised their rule. Hence the strong reaction of the revolutionary bourgeoisie...

But organised religion is a powerful force in its own right - what's more, it can easily "mutate" to become more appealing to the current "ruling class". (Just as religion can sometimes be progressive - in that certain "beliefs" are adopted by a "revolutionary" class.) So we see the continued influence of the Church in modern day America, for instance...

The core value of all successful religions is, of course, obedience to authority. This is what the believing masses are always instructed to do.

Yes, absolutely - as well as this, the influence of "hierarchy". (All derived from the inferiority of mankind, as a whole, to "God", or "Gods", and the "divine"...)

Religion has no authoritative place in a Communist society.

[Martyr]

^^ What I don't get is why are we still tallking about how religion controls the middle class? I mean we live in the modern age not the middle ages. Also a ruler controls much more than does religion. Religion is the spiritual health for the soul but it seems communists love to destroy the soul and the spirit to. What a society to live in and complain about spirituality but say ok to dictators who kill the family and make life miserable for the masses.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Martyr
Religion is the spiritual health for the soul but it seems communists love to destroy the soul and the spirit too.

Yes, all of that silly superstitious crap must go.

And you, you poor sap, who pounded all that crap into your head?

Did your parents drag your helpless ass off to "Sunday School" starting at age four?

Did they pack you off to one of those new "faith-based" private schools where science "stops" in 1830?

Hell, I bet you believe in "witches"!

When you're ready to get up off your hands and knees like a whipped puppy and start using your brain to think like a civilized human, then maybe we can talk about communism.

Until then, just head on over to

Landover Baptist Church

You'll like it there better than here.

[Atlas Swallowed]

Religion like government has been used as a tool by the few to rule the many. I believe in God but not in organized religion. My view is God is goodness in everyones hearts. The God I worship is not about control and rules but about kindess and compassion. Does my God phsically exist? It does not matter to me.

[Jazzy]

Coming from the "working class" I've never heard anyone mention working hard and being rewarded in the after life.....everyone I know worked hard to survive.......and all these capitalists like GW who claim Christianity as there faith only take certain sections of the bible and use it to there benefit......like you'll never hear any rich man quote the many scriptures talking about how being rich in earthly materialistic things is bad and also the scriptures: Matthew 19:24, Mark 10:25, Luke 18:25 which all state the same thing "it'll be easier to get a camel through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to inherit the kingdom with God" and so people see these people whom claim Christianity but truly are just wolves in sheeps clothing and judge the rest whom claim that same religion which is really silly considering how many different churches there are who preach christianity....Christianity is just the belief in Jesus Christ.......churches all have the same Bible but they have different interpertations of it.....

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Atlas Swallowed+--> (Atlas Swallowed)The God I worship is not about control and rules but about kindness and compassion.[/b]

Where was your God's "kindness and compassion" while Hurricane Katrina was slamming into New Orleans and the Mississippi Gulf Coast with 145 mph winds?

Does my God physically exist? It does not matter to me.

You "worship" something that you admit may not exist.

Why???

Jazzy

"it'll be easier to get a camel through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to inherit the kingdom with God"...

Modern scholars now think this was a copyist's error. It seems that the Greek word for "camel" and the Greek word for "rope" differ only by a single letter.

So it should read: "it's easier to get a rope through the eye of a needle than, etc."

But what's really interesting is what happened after this mistake became "Holy Writ".

The legend was invented that there was a narrow gate into Jerusalem called the "Needle Gate"...through which a fully-loaded camel could not pass. Only if the camel was partially unloaded could it pass through.

And the "moral"? The rich man, in order to gain access to "Heaven", had to "unload" a substantial portion of his wealth by giving it to the Church.

There are no contemporary records of a "Needle Gate" of course; but tourists in Jerusalem are now shown an opening in a medieval wall and told that "this" is the "Needle Gate".

Tourists will believe anything.

churches all have the same Bible but they have different interpretations of it.....

Indeed they do...but do those "different interpretations" make any real difference?

It's common for Christians who come to this board to argue that "Bush is not a real Christian" or "Some bad guy is not a real Christian".

On what grounds? You just don't like the guy or what he does?

Recall the "words" of "Jesus": Judge not lest ye be judged.

Christians actually have no right to judge the Christianity of others and how "false" it might be.

Anyone can claim to be a good Christian...and their claim must be accepted since "only God really knows".

It may be objected that this is not what Christians actually do, of course. Christians cheerfully persecute one another for "incorrect interpretations" of the "Bible" all the time...and have always done so. It's only been in the last couple of centuries that they were compelled to give up torture and murder...and you can tell they "miss it".

If the Christian fascists ever take over in the U.S., one of the first things they'll do is burn a few heretics in New York's Central Park.

It's the way they are.

[Ol' Dirty]

Religion, at least the monotheist ones, were mainly adopted because of the idea of heaven. This was mostly because the poor needed a way to think that "Hey, just because my life sucks now, doesn't mean it's gonna be like this afterwards!" That's how Cristianity and Islam got so many followers, from preying on the lower class! Eventualy, because most people believed in the same god, it became a driving force in peoples lives.