Sexist jokes

[LSD]

For those who claim that sexist jokes are not sexist and do not contribute to sexist cultural values, I think that it is important to have this thread.

Now, firstly, the issue is not about people "taking it seriously".

No one is claiming that people are unable to distinguish jokes from serious statements!

The point, rather, is that as jokes, sexist comments are ...well, sexist.

Yes, even if no one "takes them seriously".

Again, jokes persists societal stereotypes. They make them acceptable and reinforce them in the minds of the audience. Jokes are, by absolutely no means, the "cause" of oppression. Rather they are part of a society that accepts oppression as course. It's like how anti-Jewish jokes were par for the course in Nazi Germany. It wasn't that German commedians were causing antisemitism. But they did help to perpetuate and normalize a preexisting social dynamic.

Obviously, current society, although highly patriarchal, cannot be compared to the institutionalized biggotry of National Socialism, but the basic point remains that when you tell jokes that are founded on accepted social biases, they help to entrentch those biases.

Even if they're funny.

Goebbels, after all, could be down-right side-splitting hilarious. I have heard some incredibly funny speeches of his ...doesn't mean that he wasn't perpetuating oppression.

Black-face commediens in the thirties were also funny ...again, so what? Being funny isn't a "carte blanche" for saying anything. It honestly doesn't matter if you're a good humourist if what you're saying (humoursly or not) is fundamentally destructive. Remember, these commedians weren't spreading propaganda, they weren't trying to "convert" or "oppress", they were genuinely trying to make people laugh... which, by the way, they did!

Black-face commedians were huge hits! Not because people wanted to hear a racist diatribe, but because people found them funny.

...so why don't we have them anymore? Because we recognize that even though they were funny, they were still racist. They still perpetuated, in the minds of the audience, a social construct in which blacks were inferior to them.

It wasn't intentional per se, the commedians themselves just wanted to make a living, very often they were not in fact racists themselves, but they were satisfying demand and providing amusement -- much like sexist commedians today.

Joking about raping women and making it "funny" that you're going to rape, degrade, enslave, and dehumanize all "hot female celebrities" contributes to a social perception of women. Again, it isn't "intentional" on the part of commedian, but that doesn't make its influence any less real.

As your signature says, this does not meqn that I want to lock up thse commedians, it just means that we must be willing to recognize the power of all oppressive statements, even "funny" ones, and be prepared to fight against them.

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by LSD@Dec 1 2005, 09:38 PM
Now, firstly, the issue is not about people "taking it seriously".

No one is claiming that people are unable to distinguish jokes from serious statements!

So? Then, why arguing about it?

The point, rather, is that as jokes, sexist comments are ...well, sexist.

Wow, nice "argument" you got there...

Yes, even if no one "takes them seriously".

Again, why arguing about this then?

Again, jokes persists societal stereotypes. They make them acceptable and reinforce them in the minds of the audience.

No they don't, unless the "receptor" was "prepared" to accept the joke as a "fact". And it depends on the joke itself and how "deep" it is.

Jokes are, by absolutely no means, the "cause" of oppression. Rather they are part of a society that accepts oppression as course.

I agree. But you're not explaining why jokes are necessarilly supporting or spreading that opression.

It's like how anti-Jewish jokes were par for the course in Nazi Germany. It wasn't that German commedians were causing antisemitism. But they did help to perpetuate and normalize a preexisting social dynamic.

We don't live in Nazi Germany and I never heard those "jokes" so I can't talk about them.

Obviously, current society, although highly patriarchal, cannot be compared to the institutionalized biggotry of National Socialism,

I agree

but the basic point remains that when you tell jokes that are founded on accepted social biases, they help to entrentch those biases.

Evidence?

Do you really think that for example a sexist joke will change people's perception of women? Or a racist joke will change someone's perception of certain minority?

If such jokes "reinforce" those stereotypes, then why arguing about this?

People with some brain will eventually realize that the stereotypes are an exageration without basis in reality. People without a brain won't notice any difference since they would still "think" the same shit anyway, with or without listening to "yet another joke".

Plus, as I said already, jokes do not necessarilly "discriminate"...they could just be mocking the stereotype or they could actually make it look like nonsense without even trying.

Even if they're funny.

Funny for whom? A "reactionary" joke can sometimes be only funny for reactionaries, depending on it's content. The kind of joke which "harms" the most is the one which attempts to. Like the image YKTMX posted in the thread in the CC. If you are smart you will realize it's stupid.

Goebbels, after all, could be down-right side-splitting hilarious. I have heard some incredibly funny speeches of his ...doesn't mean that he wasn't perpetuating oppression.

I saw this already somewhere...you copied and pasted it from the chit chat thread, right?

But back to the actual topic, the context is important in whether the joke "harms" or not, if you know what I mean. Again, I haven't heard those "jokes" and I don't feel like doing "research". Some jokes just have a "target" and this "target" is assumed to agree with the stereotypes used being true. As you said yourself, he could be "hilarious". So? What's the problem if, for example, a jew wants to use one of those jokes (assuming they could be used and weren't of "bad taste" and were actually about jews of course) to mock stereotypes about jews? Or some anti-racist telling it to his friend who is a jew? We hardly have the rulers come out and say such things nowadays anyway, we don't live in a fucking fascist shithole in the "west" (or maybe we do???), so trying to potray such jokes as "tools of the rulers" is pointless.

As long as it is known that the joke is a joke and it's content is not to be taken seriously, the joke is not "offensive".

Black-face commediens in the thirties were also funny ...again, so what? Being funny isn't a "carte blanche" for saying anything. It honestly doesn't matter if you're a good humourist if what you're saying (humoursly or not) is fundamentally destructive. Remember, these commedians weren't spreading propaganda, they weren't trying to "convert" or "oppress", they were genuinely trying to make people laugh... which, by the way, they did!

Black-face commedians were huge hits! Not because people wanted to hear a racist diatribe, but because people found them funny.

...so why don't we have them anymore? Because we recognize that even though they were funny, they were still racist. They still perpetuated, in the minds of the audience, a social construct in which blacks were inferior to them.

And let me see...stopping this kind of jokes will suddenly stop this problems? If anything, a joke is an "add on" in the reactionary's ammount of nonsense to say.

You're not explaining why those jokes make people think the stereotypes in them are "accepted". And you're putting all the jokes "in the same bag".

It wasn't intentional per se, the commedians themselves just wanted to make a living, very often they were not in fact racists themselves, but they were satisfying demand and providing amusement -- much like sexist commedians today.

In other words, everyone who laughs or listens to a "reactionary" joke agrees with the involved stereotype? And there's a "market" of jokes?

Great, Marxism-Leninism is a reactionary and so am I, then, since I think some "sexist" jokes are funny ("racist" and "homophobic" jokes are usually crappy because they are usually created by reactionaries and used by idiots).


EDIT: fixed the quote thing

[LSD]

Then, why arguing about it?

Because, again, "taking them seriously" is not the issue.

People aren't "becoming" sexist because a comedian jokes about how he wants to rape women, no more than people "became" antisemitic because Goebbels joked about Jews.

But it makes is more acceptable. It reinforces in their minds that these subject are legitimate and valid. Subconciously and unintentionaly for the most part, but powefully nonetheless.

When you hear a comedian, a public figure, making statements demeaning and degrading women it makes that kind of discussion acceptable. It doesn't mean that you are going to go out and rape women, it doesn't mean that you are going to go beat up your girlfriend, it just means that you will be slightly less offended the next time you hear your friend make a similar statement.

It means you will wonder a litte more about whether that rape victim really wasn't "asking for it".

It, again, means that the patriarchal stereotypes which are ingrained in our culture will be reinforced just a little more. Not enough to make a sexist out of a feminist, but enough to matter

We don't live in Nazi Germany and I never heard those "jokes" so I can't talk about them.

Perhaps not, but you can certainly imagine what they'd have been like!

When you have an entire society geared around the idea of the inferior racial Jew, you can predict what kind of things comedians would joke about. And, yes, even Germans who would have called themselves "not antisemetic" would laugh at these jokes because many of them were genuinely funny.

They fit all the nescessities for humour, they made people laugh, but they were still a part of an oppressive biggoted society and helped to further the ostracizing and marginialization of Jews.

The exact same is true for sexist jokes. Today, antisemetism is still around, but it is not nearly as prevalent as patriarchal sexism. Whereas racism has largely been made taboo, sexism is still alive an well.

It is currently "politiaclly incorrect" to asign characteristics to specific "races", it is still acceptable to do so to different "genders".

Likewise, making jokes about "dumb niggers" is no longer tolerated in mainstream society, making jokes about "dumb hos" is.

But that doesn't mean that it is any less reactionary!

Do you really think that for example a sexist joke will change people's perception of women?

No, and that's the problem.

A sexist joke perpetuates their perception of women, it prevents it from chaning.

It acts as a counterweight to the forces of progression by reinforcing the patriarchal stereotypes that define contemporary society.

If such jokes "reinforce" those stereotypes, then why arguing about this?

Because that's a bad thing.

We don't want to reinforce oppressive stereotypes, we want to crush them!

Plus, as I said already, jokes do not necessarilly "discriminate"...they could just be mocking the stereotype or they could actually make it look like nonsense without even trying.

And as I have already said, those kind of jokes are good.

Jokes that mock oppressive stereotypes are progressive, those that mock with oppressive stereotypes are reactionary. It's that simple.

But back to the actual topic, the context is important in whether the joke "harms" or not, if you know what I mean.

Of course the context matters. No one is proposing that every jokes that involves rape or sex or women must "automatically" be sexist. Everything must be looked at indivudally, and looked at individually, in context, many jokes are sexist!

The jokes that started all of this, M-L's I want to rape all hot female celebrities, for instance, is a sexist joke. Even "in context", that kind of sentiment perpetuates the conception of women as sexual objects who's greatest crime is daring to be independent sexual beings.

It doesn't say that directly of course, but that is the tacit point that it is making and that is, unfortunately, a widely held belief in this society.

Does M-L's joke mean that readers of his blog will immediately go out and rape Angelna Jolie? Of course not. It means that they will chortle to themselves and think yeah, that'd be fun, I'd never do it, but that'd be fun.

Indeed, unless they come at it with that mindset, there's no humour in it. That joke, by its nature, requires that the reader identify with the rapist (M-L) and not the victim (the "hot female celbreties). It is therefore, internally, legitimizing rape and although people will not "take that seriously" and start thinking that rape is truly acceptable in the "real world", it still adds one more brick to the foundation of sexism alreay instilled in them by the patriarchal society we all live in.

People need to be made aware of this.

Some jokes just have a "target" and this "target" is assumed to agree with the stereotypes used being true.

"assumed to agree with the stereotype"? WTF?

Who, exactly, is "assuming" that???

Did black people "agree" with the stereotypes of blackface commedians? Do women "agree" with the stereotypes of sexist ones?

What on earth are you talking about?

So? What's the problem if, for example, a jew wants to use one of those jokes (assuming they could be used and weren't of "bad taste" and were actually about jews of course) to mock stereotypes about jews?

There is absolutely no problem with that scenario because the comedian would be mocking the stereotype, not mocking jews.

The kind of jokes we are talking about is better equated with the latter, not the former.

Jokes which attack sexist concepts are not the problem, jokes which attack women are.

And let me see...stopping this kind of jokes will suddenly stop this problems?

No.

These jokes are a very small part of a very big problem, but they are still a part of the problem.

Don't imagine for a second that ending sexist jokes will stop sexism any more than stopping antisemetic jokes would have stopped the Nazis.

But people need to realize that these values are oppressive, no matter how they are presented. And as leftists, it is our obligation to idenfity and battle these ideas wherever they spring up, be it a political rally or a standup routine.

In other words, everyone who laughs or listens to a "reactionary" joke agrees with the involved stereotype?

Absolute not. But they must, by definition, find those stereotpes to be funny and to be acceptable subject for "joking".

Again, that is just another tiny nail propping up the patriarchy.

I think some "sexist" jokes are funny ("racist" and "homophobic" jokes are usually crappy because they are usually created by reactionaries and used by idiots).

That's actually a rather telling statement.

Why do you think that "some" sexist jokes come across to you as funny, whereas no racist or homophobic ones do?

Clearly both women and visible minorites are oppressed groups, clearly both have long histories of being mocked for ammusment. So why do you think it is that making fun of one them ellicits outrage and making fun of the other ellicits laughter?

It certainly can't be that all the "better" commedians just all happen to have decided to attack women and no one else. It also can't be that just "idiots" are atracted to the field of racist commedy, it does, after all, have a long and proud history in the humour industry. People have been laughing at racist jokes for centuries.

So what could it be?

Well, it turns out that your reaction is not unique. Clearly many many people find racist jokes to be "worse" than sexist ones. And that can't be an accident. It also can't be that sexist "jokes" are "better" than racist ones, they are, after all, functionaly identical.

No, the reason that it is more acceptable to make fun of women and gays than blacks is because blacks have fought back, the women's rights movement and the homosexual rights movements are still but beginning.

Remember, 40 years ago, it would have been acceptable in most of the US to tell virulently racist jokes. The kind of attitude demonstrated by you and others (racist is bad, but sexist is OK) would have been incredibly rare. But because of long hard struggle, that has largely changed.

So much to the point that when YKTMX posted a racist cartoon in the CC thread on this subject, people were appaled at the comparison. If he had posted a contempory sexist cartoon, that made similar reference to sexist stereotypes, the reactions would have been remarkably less.

There is absolutely no difference between sexist jokes and racist jokes and homophobic jokes. That fact that you find one of them to be acceptable and the others to not, says a a lot more about you than it does about "jokes".

It also says a great deal about society -- namely that it is sexist.

[DisIllusion]

Originally posted by LSD@Dec 1 2005, 02:38 PM
For those who claim that sexist jokes are not sexist and do not contribute to sexist cultural values, I think that it is important to have this thread.

Now, firstly, the issue is not about people "taking it seriously".

No one is claiming that people are unable to distinguish jokes from serious statements!

The point, rather, is that as jokes, sexist comments are ...well, sexist.

Yes, even if no one "takes them seriously".

Again, jokes persists societal stereotypes. They make them acceptable and reinforce them in the minds of the audience. Jokes are, by absolutely no means, the "cause" of oppression. Rather they are part of a society that accepts oppression as course. It's like how anti-Jewish jokes were par for the course in Nazi Germany. It wasn't that German commedians were causing antisemitism. But they did help to perpetuate and normalize a preexisting social dynamic.

Obviously, current society, although highly patriarchal, cannot be compared to the institutionalized biggotry of National Socialism, but the basic point remains that when you tell jokes that are founded on accepted social biases, they help to entrentch those biases.

Even if they're funny.

Goebbels, after all, could be down-right side-splitting hilarious. I have heard some incredibly funny speeches of his ...doesn't mean that he wasn't perpetuating oppression.

Black-face commediens in the thirties were also funny ...again, so what? Being funny isn't a "carte blanche" for saying anything. It honestly doesn't matter if you're a good humourist if what you're saying (humoursly or not) is fundamentally destructive. Remember, these commedians weren't spreading propaganda, they weren't trying to "convert" or "oppress", they were genuinely trying to make people laugh... which, by the way, they did!

Black-face commedians were huge hits! Not because people wanted to hear a racist diatribe, but because people found them funny.

...so why don't we have them anymore? Because we recognize that even though they were funny, they were still racist. They still perpetuated, in the minds of the audience, a social construct in which blacks were inferior to them.

It wasn't intentional per se, the commedians themselves just wanted to make a living, very often they were not in fact racists themselves, but they were satisfying demand and providing amusement -- much like sexist commedians today.

Joking about raping women and making it "funny" that you're going to rape, degrade, enslave, and dehumanize all "hot female celebrities" contributes to a social perception of women. Again, it isn't "intentional" on the part of commedian, but that doesn't make its influence any less real.

As your signature says, this does not meqn that I want to lock up thse commedians, it just means that we must be willing to recognize the power of all oppressive statements, even "funny" ones, and be prepared to fight against them.

Can't we argue that something today, like Chapelle's Show is pretty racist? I mean, just the fact that you are also black doesn't mean you can make all these jokes about stereotypes and throw them out there for everybody (white, black, asian, indian etc.) to laugh at. I heard this is the reason why Dave Chapelle withdrew from the possibility of a third season, which is probably the right thing to do.

[redstar2000]

From the context, this seems to be the continuation of other threads that I haven't seen.

If someone is arguing (or did argue in the past) that sexist "jokes" are "acceptable" on the left...then by now they must realize that they are (or were) sadly mistaken.

There is nothing "funny" about sexism. :angry:

Indeed, if someone finds sexist "jokes" to be "funny", I think they should seriously ask themselves why that is so. Revolutionaries should be well aware of the fact that there are no significant "cultural accidents".

Humor that is considered "acceptable" in the mainstream of capitalist society reflects the cultural prejudices of that society.

For example, consider Scott Adams' Dilbert cartoon series. It is very popular because it reflects our popular cultural disdain for the stupidity of our bosses.

But what other message does it send? Very simple. Adams constantly reminds us that "our co-workers are all incompetent assholes". In other words, he attacks the very idea of proletarian solidarity as "totally unthinkable".

This is, I think, why the bourgeois media is happy to circulate this series even though individual capitalists are probably not terribly fond of it.

If revolutionaries want to use humor as a weapon against capital and all its cultural appendages, then it follows that we must be careful not to inadvertently reinforce any of "that old crap".

There's also another aspect of this question that might be considered: the professionalization of humor. Just as we "don't play sports" any more but rather "watch professionals play", we don't really "make jokes" any more but instead rely on "comedians"...and just repeat their material whenever a social occasion seems to call for "a joke".

Is there some "reason" that we cannot "invent jokes" that reflect our understanding of reality? Has no one thought to try?

I remember the rise of modern feminism from the late 1960s and early 1970s. Its enemies complained that "feminists have no sense of humor."

But nothing could have been further from the truth. Feminists then told a whole bunch of very sharply critical jokes...jokes at the expense of sexism itself.

A woman must accomplish twice as much as a man to get half the credit. Fortunately, that's not difficult!

I think those feminists had "the right approach" to humor...and we should learn from them. Let us direct our humor against our class enemies and not against our sisters.

[I'd Rather Be Drinking]

OK here's one... "What's politically correct and can't turn around in hallways?"
"A leftist with a pole through his/her/its head."

You know what the stereotype of the left is? Crazed PC wackos who want to control everything. After this thread, I'm thinking that's not so inaccurate?

By the way, what about dead baby jokes? Personally I find those hilarious.

[Led Zeppelin]

Now, firstly, the issue is not about people "taking it seriously".

No one is claiming that people are unable to distinguish jokes from serious statements!

The point, rather, is that as jokes, sexist comments are ...well, sexist.

Yes, even if no one "takes them seriously".

If that is the case, then what is your point? A joke is sexist, but no one takes them seriously, so doesn't that make the effect of the sexism in the joke rather.....non-existent?

That is exactly what your "argument" is based on; "sexist jokes --even if people don't take them seriously and just laugh at them for amusement-- are still sexist, so they are wrong" (oh, I forgot to add that women also laugh at them).

Personally I think you are mentally masturbating over something which doesn't matter, you want to "stay true" to your "leftism" when in fact it proves that you know nothing of reality, and that you don't have a sense of humor.

Again, jokes persists societal stereotypes. They make them acceptable and reinforce them in the minds of the audience.

They sure as hell don't, you assume that "the audience" takes them seriously, they don't, can't you "get that"? Can't you just acknowledge the fact that "the audience" is there laughing at those jokes to "have a good time" and nothing else?

Do you really think that the audience members will go home saying "oh shit, Eddie was right!! What he was saying wasn't "just an act" to "make us laugh" and to "entertain us", in fact, Eddie was trying to teach us something!!!"

No, that's just absurd, and you know it.

Jokes are, by absolutely no means, the "cause" of oppression. Rather they are part of a society that accepts oppression as course.

This is interesting, I believe you have no clue of what sexist jokes really are, what are sexist jokes?

"Sexist jokes rely on overblown stereotypes in order to be funny."

That's Noxion's definition of it, and I fully agree, now to get back at your "argument", what are you trying to say? That sexist jokes will "no longer be around in Communism"? The entire category of sexist jokes will just disappear?

That's --again-- absurd, especially since women also find them funny, there's nothing which can "back up" your "theory", you could have used the dislike of women of those jokes, but that's not gonna fly, so basically it's your word against.....the word of people with a sense of humor and who don't take jokes seriously.

Good luck trying to win that battle.

It's like how anti-Jewish jokes were par for the course in Nazi Germany. It wasn't that German commedians were causing antisemitism. But they did help to perpetuate and normalize a preexisting social dynamic.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't those comedians who did use anti-Jewish jokes payed by the state?

And weren't those comedians who didn't use anti-Jewish jokes (who were most likely the majority, unless you can prove otherwise) prosecuted by the state?

So doesn't that kinda make your analogy....worthless?

Yes it does, sorry.

Obviously, current society, although highly patriarchal, cannot be compared to the institutionalized biggotry of National Socialism, but the basic point remains that when you tell jokes that are founded on accepted social biases, they help to entrentch those biases.

Even if they're funny.

Those jokes are funny because they are "founded on accepted social biases", or in other words they rely on overblown stereotypes in order to be funny.

They don't "help to entrentch those biases", they ridicule them.

Goebbels, after all, could be down-right side-splitting hilarious. I have heard some incredibly funny speeches of his ...doesn't mean that he wasn't perpetuating oppression.

Please stop using the Nazi analogy, that doesn't fly anymore.

Black-face commediens in the thirties were also funny ...again, so what? Being funny isn't a "carte blanche" for saying anything. It honestly doesn't matter if you're a good humourist if what you're saying (humoursly or not) is fundamentally destructive. Remember, these commedians weren't spreading propaganda, they weren't trying to "convert" or "oppress", they were genuinely trying to make people laugh... which, by the way, they did!

Black-face commedians were huge hits! Not because people wanted to hear a racist diatribe, but because people found them funny.

...so why don't we have them anymore? Because we recognize that even though they were funny, they were still racist. They still perpetuated, in the minds of the audience, a social construct in which blacks were inferior to them.

You have a problem with finding good analogies, don't you?

The difference between the two is that most black people found them racist.

Do most women find Eddie sexist? No.

Sorry, try again.

It wasn't intentional per se, the commedians themselves just wanted to make a living, very often they were not in fact racists themselves, but they were satisfying demand and providing amusement -- much like sexist commedians today.

See above, your analogy is --to put it bluntly-- crap.

Joking about raping women and making it "funny" that you're going to rape, degrade, enslave, and dehumanize all "hot female celebrities" contributes to a social perception of women. Again, it isn't "intentional" on the part of commedian, but that doesn't make its influence any less real.

First of all the joke said nothing about raping, you made that up, it was about "hot female celebrities" being "personal prostitutes", I never said anything about raping, that is not funny to rational thinking people.

The "funny part" of the joke was in the fact that I am a 16 year old "loser" who after the revolution was gonna have "all female hot celebrities to be his personal prostitutes", that is so ridiculous that it becomes funny to some people.

It doesn't imply that "all women should be prostitutes" or that "all women are only good for prostitution", people don't even take it so far, only you do, for the sake of mental masturbation of course.

But lets not get into that joke, I am not a "professional comedian", we are talking about them.

As your signature says, this does not meqn that I want to lock up thse commedians, it just means that we must be willing to recognize the power of all oppressive statements, even "funny" ones, and be prepared to fight against them.

The statements aren't oppressive, it's really simple you know, I'm gonna say it one more time, try to understand this time; "since the audience (rational thinking people for the most part) don't take a sexist joke seriously, the sexism part of the joke becomes non-existent."

I will reply to redstar's dribble later on, I'm gonna go watch Eddie Murphy Raw now and laugh my ass off, if you don't mind.

Oh, and I promise to not take the overblown stereotypes seriously.

[Led Zeppelin]

If someone is arguing (or did argue in the past) that sexist "jokes" are "acceptable" on the left...then by now they must realize that they are (or were) sadly mistaken.

There is nothing "funny" about sexism.

What are you talking about "on the left"?

Do you mean sexist jokes in the leftist movement? We're not talking about that, we're talking about sexist jokes made by comedians like Eddie Murphy.

Indeed, if someone finds sexist "jokes" to be "funny", I think they should seriously ask themselves why that is so.

Because they are overblown stereotypes.

Humor that is considered "acceptable" in the mainstream of capitalist society reflects the cultural prejudices of that society.

No it doesn't, that doesn't make sense at all, both you and LSD seem to "be right" and "have a logical explanation" for this, just say that it's humor in Capitalist society and your argument is "perfect".

Sorry, as I have proven above that doesn't cut it.

Women, the people who are supposed to be "hurt" by those jokes, actually find them amusing, and no, these are not just small groups of women, I'm talking about the majority of women (in Imperialist nations that is, since they are the most emancipated).

Oh, and can you explain this to me, why are women in Imperialist nations more tolerant towards these jokes, then lets say women in the third world? Isn't it supposed to be the other way around according to your theory?

Because, according to your theory, the more society advances the more people will "hate" and "dislike" these kind of jokes, in reality however it's the other way around! The more nations advance the more tolerant people become to them!

You don't want to advance society culturally, you want to "take us back to feudalism", very dangerous indeed, kinda like your "plan" to execute all rapists.

Did I just find a flaw in your theory? Oh, I think I did, sorry. :blush:

If revolutionaries want to use humor as a weapon against capital and all its cultural appendages, then it follows that we must be careful not to inadvertently reinforce any of "that old crap".

But opposing sexism is part "of that old crap", remember feudal society? Remember the third world?

I doubt Eddie Murphy is popular there.

You don't want to "get rid of the old crap" you want to use the older crap!

[LSD]

If that is the case, then what is your point? A joke is sexist, but no one takes them seriously, so doesn't that make the effect of the sexism in the joke rather.....non-existent?

No!

Something does not have to be "taken seriously" to have an effect.

Sexist jokes are not "taken seriously". People do not "believe" what the comedian says or "accept" their stated "values". No one is arguing this.

What I have been trying to point out, and what you have avoided discussing, is the indirect influence of "joking" about sexist conceptions.

Humour not only reflects social mores, it reinforces them. It makes topics legitimate for conversation, it makes values "light" and "funny", it makes ideas normal.

Hearing jokes after joke about how all women are hos and cock-teases will not make you hate women, it will not make you rape women. Unfortunately it often will mean, however, that you'll take just a few more seconds in condemning that rape you read about in the paper. That you'll wonder just a little more if she wasn't really "asking for it".

Again, jokes are only a part of the problem, but they are still a part of the problem.

They sure as hell don't, you assume that "the audience" takes them seriously

Once again, NO I DON'T!!

I don't really know how much more blunt I can be in that I do not believe that anyone "takes them seriously".

Will you please get off that subject and address my actual arguments.

This is interesting, I believe you have no clue of what sexist jokes really are, what are sexist jokes?

Sexist jokes are jokes which utilize sexist stereotypes and values to create humour at the expense of women.

what are you trying to say? That sexist jokes will "no longer be around in Communism"? The entire category of sexist jokes will just disappear?

That actually isn't what I have been saying, I have been trying to explain how and why these jokes are sexist. But while we're on the subject, I do think that this type of "joke" will become "extinct" rather quickly in a liberated society.

It won't be any act of "censorship", it's just that people won't want to listen to that kind of crap.

That's --again-- absurd, especially since women also find them funny

You've hardped on this point quite a bit, which strikes be a bizarre, 'cause it's a pretty irrelevent statement.

Firstly, the overwhelming majority of sexist joke fans are men, likewise the overwhelming majority of feminist critics are female. This is certainly no "accident".

But even for those women, and I will certainly condede that many exist, who do laugh at these jokes I say ...so what?

Many of these jokes, from what you've said at least, are indeed funny. They certainly play nicely into the sexist stereotypes of our society. Stereotypes from which, of course, women are not imune.

The effect of sexist jokes, again, is not a direct one. People don't "take them seriously" and "everyone knows that". So that the fact that some women find them to be funny has no bearing on whether or not they help to perpetuate sexist values. In fact, it has absolutely nothing to do with this debate whatsoever!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't those comedians who did use anti-Jewish jokes payed by the state?

You're wrong.

And weren't those comedians who didn't use anti-Jewish jokes (who were most likely the majority, unless you can prove otherwise) prosecuted by the state?

That's a patently ludicrous statement.

Firstly, how do you punish someone for not joking about something? Many comedy routines simply had no room for "racial" humour. There were no laws or edicts "requiring" racial humour and to suggest that there were requires sufficient proof to back it up.

No, evidence would suggest that people joked about jews because it was acceptable and expected that they do so. That's how culture works.

What, do you think that the American South subsidized comics to mock blacks?

It doesn't take "state action", oppressive values permeate quite nicely all on their own.

And, by the way, you really didn't address the question here.

Were antisemetic jokes acceptable in the Third Reich? Hell, are they acceptable now? How about homophobic ones?

Indeed, from what I've read in this thread, Mr. Murphey makes some rather offensive statements about gay people, I imagine that you find them "hilarious" as well given your fondness for him.

As I'm sure you've seen, we've had a couple of discussions on this forum regarding the use of the word "fag". I can't recall where you stood on the issue, or even if you took a stand, but I'm going to assume that you're a logical individual and recognize that that word is offensive, biggotted and should not be used.

If so, do you recgonize that joking using that word legitimizes it's use? Do you recognize that joking about how touching a gay person is repulsive adds support to that attitude in the population?

That, while it doesn't create it, it reinforces it by, firstly, including it in public discourse, and secondly, making it "funny" and hence light.

Honestly, M-L, why do you object so strongly here? This isn't a "personal" attack. I am not saying that "anyone who listens to Eddie Murphey is reactionary". Nor am I saying that doing so will somehow "turn you into one".

All that I am pointing out is that any statement that is predicated on sexist values and which does not challange those values, whether "funny" or not, is inherently by definition sexist.

I am genuinely shocked that this is at all contentious.

They don't "help to entrentch those biases", they ridicule them.

I have already addressed this issue.

Once again, jokes which do ridicule sexist/racist/homophobic biases are not a problem. Those are not the sort of jokes that we are discussing here.

We are discussing those jokes which rely on these stereotypes as framework for the joke rather than as subject for it.

I have no problem with jokes that attack sexism, I have a problem with jokes that attack women.

The difference between the two is that most black people found them racist.

So you're saying that if a significant amount of blacks didn't find them offensive they would no longer be racist?

What nonsense!

There is such a thing as objective racism, just as there is objective sexism. It is not nescessary to "take a poll" to determine what is and what is not biggotted.

Marginalized groups are often, by design in fact, slow to recognize what is being used as a tool of oppression. For most blacks throughout most of the last 400 years, the racist jokes were not the issue, and rightly so.

Many, in fact, especially in, say, late reconstuctionist times, would have even acceded and called those "jokes" "funny". Doesn't mean that they weren't oppressive.

It certainly doesn't mean that they weren't racist.

First of all the joke said nothing about raping, you made that up, it was about "hot female celebrities" being "personal prostitutes", I never said anything about raping, that is not funny to rational thinking people.

um...forcing a woman to have sex with you against her will is called rape, no matter how you dress it up.

And this is part of what I am talking about. Jokes like this "muddy the waters", they make it acceptable to discuss the sexual ensalvement of women because it's not rape, it's forced prostitution.

No one reading your joke is going to go out and force celebrities to be prostitutes, but left unchallanged it leaves the reader with the distinct impression that, realistic or not, doing so would be nice.

The "funny part" of the joke was in the fact that I am a 16 year old "loser" who after the revolution was gonna have "all female hot celebrities to be his personal prostitutes", that is so ridiculous that it becomes funny to some people.

Right, the "funny part", especially the way you originally formulated it, is that it's you being the one with the "personal prostitutes" and not "society".

The reversal here is about how ridiculous it would be for a "loser" to be the one with the sex-slaves, it is not about the concept of sex-slaves itself. That idea is left unchallanged. It is obviously meant to be fantastical, but it is in no way mocked or attacked in the joke.

Again, for this joke to work, the reader must be thinking at some level, that'd be fun.

That's sexist.

[Led Zeppelin]

No!

Something does not have to be "taken seriously" to have an effect.

Yes!

If something is not taken seriously then it has no effect, period.

I'm surprised you are even arguing this.

Sexist jokes are not "taken seriously". People do not "believe" what the comedian says or "accept" their stated "values". No one is arguing this.

Hearing jokes after joke about how all women are hos and cock-teases will not make you hate women, it will not make you rape women. Unfortunately it often will mean, however, that you'll take just a few more seconds in condemning that rape you read about in the paper. That you'll wonder just a little more if she wasn't really "asking for it".

Contradiction maybe?

If it "will take you just a few more seconds in condemning that rape you read about in the paper", doesn't that mean that the person did "accept" (at least a small part) of the stated value of the joke?

You just contradicted yourself.

And you are arguing that.

What I have been trying to point out, and what you have avoided discussing, is the indirect influence of "joking" about sexist conceptions.

Can you prove that there is a indirect influence of "joking" about sexist conceptions?

Humour not only reflects social mores, it reinforces them. It makes topics legitimate for conversation, it makes values "light" and "funny", it makes ideas normal.

This is simply not true, after I watch a Eddie Murphy show with my sister I don't have the need to talk about the subjects he talked about in his show, in fact I feel exactly the same as I did before I watched it.

I think that applies to most people.

Once again, NO I DON'T!!

I don't really know how much more blunt I can be in that I do not believe that anyone "takes them seriously".

Will you please get off that subject and address my actual arguments.

Well you've finally stated what you "really mean"; sexist jokes have this weird, strange, mystic "indirect" effect on people, so prove it!

Sexist jokes are jokes which utilize sexist stereotypes and values to create humour at the expense of women.

Noxion's definition is better, especially since the fact that women laugh at those jokes "doesn't make sense" if we go by your definition.

That actually isn't what I have been saying, I have been trying to explain how and why these jokes are sexist. But while we're on the subject, I do think that this type of "joke" will become "extinct" rather quickly in a liberated society.

It won't be any act of "censorship", it's just that people won't want to listen to that kind of crap.

Yeah you're right, people won't want to listen to something which they find funny, I guess in your "ideal society" there is a taboo on sexual jokes, I think the opposite will happen, sexual jokes will not only "be around" they will "be around more", with even more female comedians making fun of male sexual stereotypes as well.

You've hardped on this point quite a bit, which strikes be a bizarre, 'cause it's a pretty irrelevent statement.

Firstly, the overwhelming majority of sexist joke fans are men, likewise the overwhelming majority of feminist critics are female. This is certainly no "accident".

But even for those women, and I will certainly condede that many exist, who do laugh at these jokes I say ...so what?

So what? So the people who should be offended because the jokes in question promote their exploitation and oppression are not.

What does this "prove"? This proves that you are fighting for a "lost cause", the majority of people who these kinds of jokes are supposed to "hurt" are not hurt, they don't care.

This then also proves that you are quite fond of mental masturbation.

The effect of sexist jokes, again, is not a direct one. People don't "take them seriously" and "everyone knows that". So that the fact that some women find them to be funny has no bearing on whether or not they help to perpetuate sexist values. In fact, it has absolutely nothing to do with this debate whatsoever!

Not if you can prove that this so-called "indirect influence" exists.

I doubt that you can though, that's why it does matter.

No, evidence would suggest that people joked about jews because it was acceptable and expected that they do so. That's how culture works.

Expected by whom? The Nazi party?

Yeah sure, I never said otherwise.

What, do you think that the American South subsidized comics to mock blacks?

No that's true, but I don't think the majority of Germans were anti-semitic at that time.

Were antisemetic jokes acceptable in the Third Reich? Hell, are they acceptable now? How about homophobic ones?

Are anti-semitic jokes acceptable if they are made by jews?

What if homosexuals laugh at those homophobic jokes?

Those are "tough questions" indeed, I won't respond to them in fear of getting banned or getting another warning point, lets stick to sexism, I already got a warning point for that.

Indeed, from what I've read in this thread, Mr. Murphey makes some rather offensive statements about gay people, I imagine that you find them "hilarious" as well given your fondness for him.

To be honest yes I did, although I disliked his use of the word "fag", does that make me more homophobic though?

Oh right, you still have to prove that "indirect influence" thingy.

As I'm sure you've seen, we've had a couple of discussions on this forum regarding the use of the word "fag". I can't recall where you stood on the issue, or even if you took a stand, but I'm going to assume that you're a logical individual and recognize that that word is offensive, biggotted and should not be used.

If so, do you recgonize that joking using that word legitimizes it's use? Do you recognize that joking about how touching a gay person is repulsive adds support to that attitude in the population?

Yes, that word is offensive, biggotted and should not be used.

And I said, I disliked his use of the word.

Honestly, M-L, why do you object so strongly here? This isn't a "personal" attack. I am not saying that "anyone who listens to Eddie Murphey is reactionary". Nor am I saying that doing so will somehow "turn you into one".

Yes you are, you just said that the "indirect influence of the jokes" will make me "more sexist" because I laugh at Eddie.

That's simply not true.

So you're saying that if a significant amount of blacks didn't find them offensive they would no longer be racist?

What nonsense!

No, I'm saying that it was only natural for a significant amount of blacks to find them racist because they were, it's not natural (apparently) for women to dislike sexist jokes, so they aren't.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Marxism-Leninism
No it doesn't, that doesn't make sense at all, both you and LSD seem to "be right" and "have a logical explanation" for this, just say that it's humor in Capitalist society and your argument is "perfect".

Sorry, as I have proven above that doesn't cut it.

"Proven"? What exactly have you "proven"?

That contemporary humor, unlike all other manifestations of modern culture, is "totally unrelated" to capitalism or patriarchy but instead just "hangs up in the air"?

Like a Platonic "pure absolute", humor exists "independently" of the entire surrounding social milieu.

I suggest that all you've managed to "prove" is that it would be a good idea to remove the word "Marxist" from your username...since you are apparently unacquainted with his essential insights or, perhaps, even opposed to them.

Women, the people who are supposed to be "hurt" by those jokes, actually find them amusing, and no, these are not just small groups of women, I'm talking about the majority of women (in Imperialist nations that is, since they are the most emancipated).

This seems to be the "heart" of your "case". Sexist humor is "ok" because "lots and lots" of women "laugh".

Are you aware of the fact that human laughter is not simply provoked by humor? That it is, for many people, a nervous reaction that's actually the result of anxiety?

What would happen if a woman (or a whole lot of women) expressed open outrage when a sexist joke was told in their presence?

Breaking the "norms" of patriarchy is still not without the risk of physical harm...and women know that.

So they "go along with the joke"...but do you imagine that they are really amused?

Perhaps you do...since you don't strike me as a particularly insightful fellow.

It does take at least a minimal amount of empathy to imagine what it must feel like to be on the receiving end of such "humor"...from the age of five onward.

And far too many guys definitely still fall short in that regard.

However, on this board, you've picked "the losing side". Should it become necessary, you will provoke a furious controversy and even most of the guys here are not going to support you.

If a female comrade submits a motion to ban your sorry ass, I'm going to vote for it.

There's no excuse for that stupid reactionary crap! :angry:

[Led Zeppelin]

redstar2000, I couldn't find a response to my main question in the above post:

Oh, and can you explain this to me, why are women in Imperialist nations more tolerant towards these jokes, then lets say women in the third world? Isn't it supposed to be the other way around according to your theory?

Because, according to your theory, the more society advances the more people will "hate" and "dislike" these kind of jokes, in reality however it's the other way around! The more nations advance the more tolerant people become to them!

You don't want to advance society culturally, you want to "take us back to feudalism", very dangerous indeed, kinda like your "plan" to execute all rapists.

Did I just find a flaw in your theory? Oh, I think I did, sorry.

Please reply to that instead of posting nonsense, thanks.

[Led Zeppelin]

Ok, everyone has heard both sides of the argument, I have one simple question for LSD and redstar2000 to answer:

Am I sexist because I laugh at Eddie Murphy?

If the answer is no then there is no problem.

[Martin Blank]

Note: The following is a product of a quick discussion on this issue among members of the Central Committee of the Communist League.

In and of themselves, jokes are not so much the issue as is the effect they can have on people. Jokes about women, gays, etc., are at once a reflection of the sexism in society, and have an influence on that sexism.

For example, casual acceptance of gender stereotypes in the form of humor can open doors to other forms of cultural stereotypes. We can see this in how women are portrayed in commercials and television programs. Many of the roles given to women, some of which are based on the same gender stereotypes that are found in jokes, have proliferated in other forms of the media. What was once considered an extreme example designed to illicit a humorous response is increasingly becoming a cultural standard.

Here in the U.S., for example, there are now popular television programs where the entire raison d'etre is to play on these stereotypes. This has an effect on mass consciousness that is shaped by media and popular culture. Among women, gays, Blacks, etc., this has an effect of creating a consciousness of self-hate. Women, for example, after being inundated from all sides by these cultural stereotypes -- not just jokes, but all forms of cultural outlet -- begin to believe that the stereotypes are what is expected of them. Women begin to believe their role is that of a "gold digger" or "harpie", a "shopaholic" or "whore". It is a conditioned response, similar to how workers are taught through cultural avenues that we are "naturally" subservient and should just "obey".

The conditioning reaches a critical point when we not only accept that as our role, but begin to police ourselves. Culturally speaking, the conditioned responses reflect themselves in accepting the stereotypes that began as caricatures created by those in the oppressor position (men, whites, heterosexuals, etc.), and even begin to find humor in them. Hence, women, gays, etc., laughing at sexist, homophobic, etc., jokes.

Now, does it make someone more sexist to laugh at these jokes. No. The sexism was there anyway. The response, however, should be seen as an indication of the extent to which sexism permeates all aspects of society. In a sense, we should take it as a wake-up call.

We should also bear in mind that women, gays, etc., who have achieved a level of consciousness on these issues are watching how their straight or male compatriots respond. They may not always say something, but that doesn't mean they're not paying attention.

[Vanguard1917]

I'm with El Infiltr(A)do and the Eddie Murphy-loving Stalinist guy on this one.

A joke is a joke. Plus, inoffensive jokes are not usually worth telling. In a comedic setting people laugh at things that they would actually take very seriously in a political and rational setting. Why? Because comedy is inconsequential, while politics obviously is not.

For example, I'm for national independence for Ireland and i unconditionally support their armed struggle against British imperialism. But tell me a good joke about the Irish (which is obviously going to be based on one overblown stereotype or another) and i might piss myself laughing. Does does tell you anything about me aside from my sense of humour? Not at all.

Another example: i love films by the Coen brothers. I laugh my arse off at that scene in Fargo when a human body is being disposed of in a shredder. Does that mean i support murder and the sadistic violation of a human corpse? Of course it doesn't. It just means that i have a sick sense of humour... nothing more, nothing less.

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by LSD@Dec 2 2005, 12:49 AM

Then, why arguing about it?

Because, again, "taking them seriously" is not the issue.

People aren't "becoming" sexist because a comedian jokes about how he wants to rape women, no more than people "became" antisemitic because Goebbels joked about Jews.

But it makes is more acceptable.

Prove it!

It reinforces in their minds that these subject are legitimate and valid. Subconciously and unintentionaly for the most part, but powefully nonetheless.

When you hear a comedian, a public figure, making statements demeaning and degrading women it makes that kind of discussion acceptable.

The joke comes after the stereotype.

It doesn't mean that you are going to go out and rape women, it doesn't mean that you are going to go beat up your girlfriend, it just means that you will be slightly less offended the next time you hear your friend make a similar statement.

It means you will wonder a litte more about whether that rape victim really wasn't "asking for it".

Blah blah blah. Give a serious argument for once about this. Show me how a fucking joke can subconsciously make people think a "rape" was "justified" or whatever.

It, again, means that the patriarchal stereotypes which are ingrained in our culture will be reinforced just a little more. Not enough to make a sexist out of a feminist, but enough to matter

Evidence?

Perhaps not, but you can certainly imagine what they'd have been like!

No I can't...

When you have an entire society geared around the idea of the inferior racial Jew, you can predict what kind of things comedians would joke about. And, yes, even Germans who would have called themselves "not antisemetic" would laugh at these jokes because many of them were genuinely funny.

Hm...lemme see...the only jokes about jews I remember I've ever heard were related with their "economical attitude", if you know what I mean. I thought the joke was "moderately funny" but it never changed my view on jewish people because I acknowledged it was a stereotype, and even if that stereotype had "some truth to it", to claim that all jews were like that is stupid and completely irrelevant.

They fit all the nescessities for humour, they made people laugh, but they were still a part of an oppressive biggoted society and helped to further the ostracizing and marginialization of Jews.

They're still funny. If those jokes can make non-reactionary people laugh now, they're still funny. You've just admitted laughing at a "reactionary joke" is not being a reactionary (unless all those germans who laughed - and you! - were reactionaries, of course). You still need evidence of this jokes making any difference amongst the german population's views on jews. Unless you assume people always "believe the government". In any case, those jokes wouldn't have made much difference since they lived in a fucking reactionary shithole and their differences with the government could have made them end up badly.

The real "problems" here are two:
1) does laughing at a sexist/racist joke make you racist/sexist?
2) do those sexist/racist joke promote the stereotypes as facts amongst the population?

It is currently "politiaclly incorrect" to asign characteristics to specific "races", it is still acceptable to do so to different "genders".

Well, is saying "women waste too much time shopping when compared to men" as sexist as, say, "women belong to the kitchen and must spend the rest of the time raising kids"? Even if the person saying that says that because of his personal experience?

And assuming that somehow women actually act like that, and do so because it's what "society sees as acceptable", how much of it is because of "sexist jokes"?

Likewise, making jokes about "dumb niggers" is no longer tolerated in mainstream society, making jokes about "dumb hos" is.

But that doesn't mean that it is any less reactionary!

I don't know what "hos" means.

But a joke about black people can make black people laugh and not change their perception of themselves as to fit with stereotypes.

A sexist joke perpetuates their perception of women, it prevents it from chaning.

It acts as a counterweight to the forces of progression by reinforcing the patriarchal stereotypes that define contemporary society.

Once again, it depends on who tells it, how he/she (usually he, i guess?) tells it, who listens to it, what do those who listen to it think and know already and how will their "react" about it.

We don't want to reinforce oppressive stereotypes, we want to crush them!

I agree!

But a joke can still be funny!

What I mean is: we need to create the situation in which a "sexist joke" can be seen as funny as it is but with those who listen to it and say it understand that the stereotypes it could include are not true (or at least not extremely accurate in all cases, if it has "some truth to it").

This is basically my point of this debate.

What do you think of this?

After a revolution, when dumb ideas start dissapearing, many of this jokes will be considered less fun as time goes by...excepting by historians, I guess.

And saying this, I stop taking part in this debate because I don't feel like spending a long time arguing about this issue.

I have read the rest of your post LSD, and I'll just point out some things:

Of course the context matters. No one is proposing that every jokes that involves rape or sex or women must "automatically" be sexist. Everything must be looked at indivudally, and looked at individually, in context, many jokes are sexist!

I agree.

The jokes that started all of this, M-L's I want to rape all hot female celebrities, for instance, is a sexist joke. Even "in context", that kind of sentiment perpetuates the conception of women as sexual objects who's greatest crime is daring to be independent sexual beings.

I agree, too. I don't find that joke to be very good either.

Does M-L's joke mean that readers of his blog will immediately go out and rape Angelna Jolie? Of course not. It means that they will chortle to themselves and think yeah, that'd be fun, I'd never do it, but that'd be fun.

Well I disagree with this. At least ML didn't provide a strong "argument" with it that will make it a good idea to rape someone for being a "celebrity". It might attract a "stalinist kiddie" though

Concerning the "target" thing I mentioned, I was talking about, for example, how some racists here use jokes about bolivians, which are obviously used to promote racism instead of actual rational arguments. When they do this jokes, they pretend that those who listen to it will agree with it and laugh, but usually, when I listen to this jokes, I immediately realize the person telling them is trying to convince me of accepting this nonsense, and I immediately realize this and the joke loses impact. Since I know the stereotype is false, the joke is not as fun, or just not fun at all, and I see those who tell them as idiots. In other words, there is people who uses jokes to spread stereotypes, but they will only spread if the listener agrees with it already. If they don't, then their attempt might not work. I was using "target" in a "commercial" sense, not a "victim" one. Sorry for this dumb misunderstanding.

The kind of jokes we are talking about is better equated with the latter, not the former.

Jokes which attack sexist concepts are not the problem, jokes which attack women are.

What if I tell (using the example above) to a bolivian friend an anti-bolivian joke to point out how dumb the stereotypes on it are? It's the same joke, but a different usage.

Absolute not. But they must, by definition, find those stereotpes to be funny and to be acceptable subject for "joking".

But accepting the "stereotype" as "funny" doesn't mean it is accepted as "true"! This is what I'm trying to say. Maybe it makes sense to keep this position when the joke is told to an ignorant audience, but not when the joke is told to a smart one that won't be affected by it's stereotype.

Again, that is just another tiny nail propping up the patriarchy.

That's actually a rather telling statement.

Why do you think that "some" sexist jokes come across to you as funny, whereas no racist or homophobic ones do?

Because a "sexist joke" is not necessarilly assuming women are "crap", while "racist jokes" and "homophobic jokes" tend to assume those it affects are "crap".

I have also heard "feminist" (not sure if this kind of jokes can be considered "feminists") jokes which are kinda fun when they mention how men are not "perfect", but I don't find them as fun when they say men are immature.

However, most "racist" and "homophobic jokes" tend to be told by actual racists and homophobes AND they go much deeper than saying that "gender A is dumber than gender B", and they, for example, assume that black people are criminals, lazy, drug addicts, parasites and undesirable, amongst other things.

Clearly both women and visible minorites are oppressed groups, clearly both have long histories of being mocked for ammusment. So why do you think it is that making fun of one them ellicits outrage and making fun of the other ellicits laughter?

Because a woman can answer than, say, "men think with their penis". Black people, however, have it harder to argue against this and therefore a racist joke has more chances of promoting the idea of them being "undesirables".

I'm not sure about "homophobic jokes", though.

Well, it turns out that your reaction is not unique. Clearly many many people find racist jokes to be "worse" than sexist ones. And that can't be an accident. It also can't be that sexist "jokes" are "better" than racist ones, they are, after all, functionaly identical.

Jokes "against men" also exist. Stop ignoring them.

Jokes about spanish people are very popular here, because of obvious historical reasons. But people don't assume that spanish people are that stupid as jokes says, unless, they are, well, joking. If I tell a spaniard a joke about "gallegos", they can answer with a joke about my country's stereotypes. Everyone "has fun", nobody gets seriously "hurt". Because they are jokes and stereotypes in the end.

Now I'm a "nationalist"?

[I'd Rather Be Drinking]

The PC lefties on this list are avoiding my question. What about dead baby jokes? Those are hilarious. I suppose I'm one step away from a homicidal canibal huh?

[This post edited to remove material inappropriate for this forum. Redstar2000]

[malumilitia]

I'm new to these forums but I'll chime in on this. Sexist jokes reflect the sexism in society. If you laugh when someone tells a joke about how stupid women are, you are in a sense agreeing with their stereotype. Same as if you laugh when people tell a joke about lazy Mexicans or whatever, you are affirming the stereotype they are putting out there.

Now, it's al ittle more complex...when you're aroun dpeople who are anti-sexist and they make a joke about women, it's probably meant to be taken ironically and to make fun of the dominant society's stupidity. But most people who tell sexist jokes are not doing it from an anti-sexism perspective.

If you think sexist/racist jokes exist in a social vacuum, you're wrong. I live in the U.S., jokes about women and people of color abound...but where are the jokes about white men? Isn't it interesting how in a heterosexual white male supremacist society like the United States, I've heard jokes about women and ethnic groups but virtually never about heterosexual White males? the closest we have is redneck jokes...and that targets poor white men...their race is not made fun of, but their socioeconomic class is.

Anyone who thinks sexist or racist or homophobic jokes are "just" good fun and games is either part of the dominant class or ignorant as hell.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by "Marxism"-Leninism+--> ("Marxism"-Leninism)Oh, and can you explain this to me, why are women in Imperialist nations more tolerant towards these jokes, then let's say women in the third world? Isn't it supposed to be the other way around according to your theory?[/b]

You, of course, have just completed a massive sociological study of female attitudes and reactions to sexist "humor" in several neo-colonies as well as in several imperialist countries...hence your "well-founded" conclusion.

Not exactly, eh?

Asking me to "respond" to whatever sexist smoke you happen to feel like blowing out of your ass is not necessary.

I would instead wonder what motivates you to make up that kind of shit?

I don't think there's any way that the answer would be a good one.

Am I sexist because I laugh at Eddie Murphy?

No, you are sexist because you are a male raised in a society that is still permeated with the residue of patriarchy.

We males are taught from the time we are old enough to comprehend language that we are "superior" to the female half of the species.

Like racism, homophobia, patriotism, religion...all that old shit that is crammed into our skulls when we are too young to resist.

When we get old enough to resist, we learn -- sometimes grudgingly -- to stop acting as if any of that old crap is "true".

But that does not mean that we are not plagued with a "residue" of those old indoctrinations...and finding sexist (racist, homophobic, etc.) "jokes" to be "really funny" is a manifestation of that.

I have seen with my own eyes, for example, a white guy go considerably out of his way to be courteous and helpful to a person of color. Afterwards, when that person is no longer present, out pops a racist "wisecrack".

Residue.

"Humor" thus functions as an "acceptable way" to express ideas that would otherwise be condemned as totally unacceptable.

Well, what about us? That is, what about those of us who sincerely want to see a new society in which patriarchal stereotypes are totally absent?

How does it help us achieve what we want if we continue to act is if "there's some truth" to patriarchy?

Telling a sexist "joke" or laughing at one (or publicly praising those who tell such "jokes") weighs, from a historical standpoint, "less than a dead bug".

And that appears to be the "last refuge" of the people here who defend that.

It's "just a joke"...meaning that it carries "no" historical significance at all.

But this ignores what history really is...it is the sum of all human actions.

Yes...even "jokes".

So go ahead and enjoy yourself -- tell all the sexist "jokes" you like and listen to Eddie Murphy if you think he's funny and whatever. On the "grand scale" of things, all that don't mean shit.

It's just your own extremely tiny contribution to the maintenance of patriarchy.

Something to be proud of???

I'd Rather Be Drinking

The PC lefties on this list are avoiding my question. What about dead baby jokes?

Well, what about them?

Among humans who have very unpleasant jobs dealing with death, there is a kind of "humor" that emotionally distances them from the tragedies they encounter as part of their jobs. It seems to be a psychological "coping mechanism" at work.

Perhaps the first "dead baby joke" arose as a consequence of some medical worker removing an infantile corpse from a garbage can.

I do not find them at all funny...but then I don't have a job that deals routinely with the handling and disposal of dead infants.

I think it's also been hypothesized that one of the reactions of some adolescents when they discover how bad the world really is is to seek refuge in "sick humor".

They laugh at tragedy because otherwise they would simply dissolve in tears...or even just commit suicide.

Humor is a very effective "coping mechanism"...and "dead baby jokes" may be keeping some kids alive long enough to discover the possibilities of changing the world.

They are unnecessary on this board, of course. But there are sites devoted to "sick humor" where they'd be appropriate.

Take them there.

[Led Zeppelin]

Originally posted by redstar2000+Dec 3 2005, 03:35 AM--> (redstar2000 @ Dec 3 2005, 03:35 AM)

"Marxism"-Leninism

Am I sexist because I laugh at Eddie Murphy?

No [/b]

That's all I wanted to hear, now for LSD to answer and the problem is solved.