Thread: No justice, No Peace

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  1. #1
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    Communique from the Mouvement de limmigration et des banlieues

    Die in peace my brothers, but die in silence, that we perceive but the distant echo of your suffering Wednesday, November 9, 2005.

    Those who do not understand today the causes of the riots are amnesiacs, blind or both. It has in fact been 30 years that the suburbs have struggled for justice. 25 years that the revolts, the riots, the demonstrations, the marches the public meetings, the cries of anger with precise demands have been formulated.

    15 years since the Minister of Cities was created to respond to the exclusion and the social misery of the so-called disadvantaged neighbourhoods. The ministers come and go with their promises: Marshall Plan, Zones Franches, DSQ, ZEP, ZUP, emploi-jeunes, Cohesion Sociale, etc The suburbs serve as a escapist release for the ministers, the elect and the media, fevered with little murderous phrases on the no-go zones, the parental irresonsability, gangsterism, and other Islamist derivaties.

    The inhabitants of these neighbourhoods, and notably the young, are stigmatized and designated as responsable for all the problems of society. It is all too easy to give a lesson in civics and to point the finger at the scum or the savages, thus throwing them to populist vindictiveness. And this strategy is all too profitable. The suburbs become an isolated problem, which we leave to the police and the courts to solve. Today, we are presented these suburban youth (signifying black and arab) who are seen as having come to destroy like foreigners laying siege to France.

    Nevertheless, from Minguettes (1981) to Vaulx-en-Velin (1990), from Mantes-la-Jolie (1991) to Sartrouville (1991), from Dammarie-les-Lys (1997) to Toulouse (1998), from Lille (2000) to Clichy, the message is clear:

    Enough of these unpunished crimes of the police, enough of the suffering silence of millions of families, of men and women, who suffer daily from the social violence, so much more devastating than a burning car.

    With the curfew, the government responds by collective punishment and a law of exception that gives full powers to the police. Just sealing the lid on the cooking-pot will mark the memories of our neighbourhoods for a long time.

    There will never be peace in our neighbourhoods as long as there is not justice and real equality.

    No pacification nor any curfew will keep us from continuing our fight for this, even when the cameras will have ceased rolling.

    NO JUSTICE, NO PEACE!

    le MIB, 11/09/2005
    MIB - 45 Rue dAubervilliers 7518 Paris - http://mib.ouvaton.org

    source of translation: http://archive.blogsome.com/2005/11/10/mig...ieues/#comments
    "The proletariat, when it seizes power [...] should and must at once undertake socialist measures in the most energetic, unyielding and unhesitant fashion, in other words, exercise a dictatorship, but a dictatorship of the CLASS, not of a party or of a clique -- dictatorship of the class, that means in the broadest possible form on the basis of the most active, unlimited participation of the mass of the people, of unlimited democracy." - Rosa Luxemburg

    "An Rhein und Ruhr marschieren wir. / Für unsere Freiheit kämpfen wir! / Den Streifendienst, schlagt ihn entzwei! / Edelweiß marschiert – Achtung – die Straße frei!"

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    Great. Still isn't an excuse for randomly burning everyone's shit.

    I mean, all one must do is look at all the huge changes brought about by these riots and see that all the bourgeois needed was a riot to change their minds about these poor areas!

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    Originally posted by Ownthink@Nov 11 2005, 05:41 PM
    Great. Still isn't an excuse for randomly burning everyone's shit.

    I mean, all one must do is look at all the huge changes brought about by these riots and see that all the bourgeois needed was a riot to change their minds about these poor areas!

    I mean, that doesn't even make any sense?

    Are you saying that the rioters were wrong to destroy property or even right? Since when have property rights been something communists or those fighing the "bourgeoisie" worry about?

    Next you'll be saying that the police were right to arrest them for it?
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    Originally posted by The Anarchist Tension+Nov 11 2005, 12:01 PM--> (The Anarchist Tension @ Nov 11 2005, 12:01 PM)
    Ownthink
    @Nov 11 2005, 05:41 PM
    Great. Still isn't an excuse for randomly burning everyone's shit.

    I mean, all one must do is look at all the huge changes brought about by these riots and see that all the bourgeois needed was a riot to change their minds about these poor areas!

    I mean, that doesn't even make any sense?

    Are you saying that the rioters were wrong to destroy property or even right? Since when have property rights been something communists or those fighing the "bourgeoisie" worry about?

    Next you'll be saying that the police were right to arrest them for it? [/b]
    Actually, it makes perfect sense. Malte thinks these riots are the coolest thing since sliced cheese, and that they are absolutely right to be burning everyone's shit. I think they are just a bunch of pissed off kids burning everything they can, and random property destruction will do nothing more than to piss off the right wingers, make the Left and Muslim and African and poor and whatever movement look bad, all at the same time achieving absolutely no change at all for those poor people and the areas they live in.

    Everyone touts these as Revolutionary, The next "May '68", etc. I don't believe so. May '68 had a clear political goal, 10 million striking workers, a call for Revolution, etc. While this is just some pissed off (and rightly so, but burning people's cars is not the way to "revolution" or achieve change by any means) people burning shit in the streets.

    I don't think these riots will serve any good for the Left, and will just add to the discrimination of these poor people.
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    all at the same time achieving absolutely no change at all for those poor people and the areas they live in.
    Are we ignoring the facts again, Ownthink? I already told you what things already have been achieved, things which haven't been achieved in 30 years of peaceful protests before. Ignorant fool!
    "The proletariat, when it seizes power [...] should and must at once undertake socialist measures in the most energetic, unyielding and unhesitant fashion, in other words, exercise a dictatorship, but a dictatorship of the CLASS, not of a party or of a clique -- dictatorship of the class, that means in the broadest possible form on the basis of the most active, unlimited participation of the mass of the people, of unlimited democracy." - Rosa Luxemburg

    "An Rhein und Ruhr marschieren wir. / Für unsere Freiheit kämpfen wir! / Den Streifendienst, schlagt ihn entzwei! / Edelweiß marschiert – Achtung – die Straße frei!"

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    Originally posted by Malte@Nov 11 2005, 03:53 PM
    all at the same time achieving absolutely no change at all for those poor people and the areas they live in.
    Are we ignoring the facts again, Ownthink? I already told you what things already have been achieved, things which haven't been achieved in 30 years of peaceful protests before. Ignorant fool!
    Such as? Maybe you ought to lay off the insults.
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    Originally posted by Ownthink+Nov 11 2005, 11:12 PM--> (Ownthink @ Nov 11 2005, 11:12 PM)
    Malte
    @Nov 11 2005, 03:53 PM
    all at the same time achieving absolutely no change at all for those poor people and the areas they live in.
    Are we ignoring the facts again, Ownthink? I already told you what things already have been achieved, things which haven't been achieved in 30 years of peaceful protests before. Ignorant fool!
    Such as? Maybe you ought to lay off the insults. [/b]
    Check the thrae in politics, or do some research by your own.
    "The proletariat, when it seizes power [...] should and must at once undertake socialist measures in the most energetic, unyielding and unhesitant fashion, in other words, exercise a dictatorship, but a dictatorship of the CLASS, not of a party or of a clique -- dictatorship of the class, that means in the broadest possible form on the basis of the most active, unlimited participation of the mass of the people, of unlimited democracy." - Rosa Luxemburg

    "An Rhein und Ruhr marschieren wir. / Für unsere Freiheit kämpfen wir! / Den Streifendienst, schlagt ihn entzwei! / Edelweiß marschiert – Achtung – die Straße frei!"

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    Originally posted by Malte+Nov 11 2005, 04:48 PM--> (Malte @ Nov 11 2005, 04:48 PM)
    Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 11:12 PM
    Malte
    @Nov 11 2005, 03:53 PM
    all at the same time achieving absolutely no change at all for those poor people and the areas they live in.
    Are we ignoring the facts again, Ownthink? I already told you what things already have been achieved, things which haven't been achieved in 30 years of peaceful protests before. Ignorant fool!
    Such as? Maybe you ought to lay off the insults.
    Check the thrae in politics, or do some research by your own. [/b]
    I shall, but can you at least list one positive change for workers brought about by these riots?
  9. #9
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    Originally posted by Ownthink+Nov 11 2005, 11:59 PM--> (Ownthink @ Nov 11 2005, 11:59 PM)
    Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 04:48 PM
    Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 11:12 PM
    Malte
    @Nov 11 2005, 03:53 PM
    all at the same time achieving absolutely no change at all for those poor people and the areas they live in.
    Are we ignoring the facts again, Ownthink? I already told you what things already have been achieved, things which haven't been achieved in 30 years of peaceful protests before. Ignorant fool!
    Such as? Maybe you ought to lay off the insults.
    Check the thrae in politics, or do some research by your own.
    I shall, but can you at least list one positive change for workers brought about by these riots? [/b]
    This is not about change for workers in general, this is about change of the situation of the immigrant youth in the French suburbs/ghettos.
    "The proletariat, when it seizes power [...] should and must at once undertake socialist measures in the most energetic, unyielding and unhesitant fashion, in other words, exercise a dictatorship, but a dictatorship of the CLASS, not of a party or of a clique -- dictatorship of the class, that means in the broadest possible form on the basis of the most active, unlimited participation of the mass of the people, of unlimited democracy." - Rosa Luxemburg

    "An Rhein und Ruhr marschieren wir. / Für unsere Freiheit kämpfen wir! / Den Streifendienst, schlagt ihn entzwei! / Edelweiß marschiert – Achtung – die Straße frei!"

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    Originally posted by Malte+Nov 11 2005, 05:57 PM--> (Malte @ Nov 11 2005, 05:57 PM)
    Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 11:59 PM
    Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 04:48 PM
    Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 11:12 PM
    Malte
    @Nov 11 2005, 03:53 PM
    all at the same time achieving absolutely no change at all for those poor people and the areas they live in.
    Are we ignoring the facts again, Ownthink? I already told you what things already have been achieved, things which haven't been achieved in 30 years of peaceful protests before. Ignorant fool!
    Such as? Maybe you ought to lay off the insults.
    Check the thrae in politics, or do some research by your own.
    I shall, but can you at least list one positive change for workers brought about by these riots?
    This is not about change for workers in general, this is about change of the situation of the immigrant youth in the French suburbs/ghettos. [/b]
    Okay then, what positive change did they get from this? Just tell me one or two things.
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    people around the world are now more aware of the conditions that immigrants have to deal with in France. i did not know myself until i watched 'la haine' a few months ago, but even then i didn't bother following it up. now i have, and i'm appalled [although not surprised - australia's pretty much the same]. i know a lot of people who feel exactly the same - they were complete unaware of what the situation was like in france, and now they're much more conscious. i'm a big fan of consciousness-raising to produce effective social change. it has worked in feminist movements, and i'm sure it will also work in this case.
    this post was produced on stolen land.

    to your tourist mentality, we're still the natives
    you're multicultural - but we're anti-racist!

    your heart is a muscle the size of your fist.
    keep loving. keep fighting.
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    Originally posted by Ownthink+Nov 12 2005, 01:39 AM--> (Ownthink @ Nov 12 2005, 01:39 AM)
    Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 05:57 PM
    Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 11:59 PM
    Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 04:48 PM
    Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 11:12 PM
    Malte
    @Nov 11 2005, 03:53 PM
    all at the same time achieving absolutely no change at all for those poor people and the areas they live in.
    Are we ignoring the facts again, Ownthink? I already told you what things already have been achieved, things which haven't been achieved in 30 years of peaceful protests before. Ignorant fool!
    Such as? Maybe you ought to lay off the insults.
    Check the thrae in politics, or do some research by your own.
    I shall, but can you at least list one positive change for workers brought about by these riots?
    This is not about change for workers in general, this is about change of the situation of the immigrant youth in the French suburbs/ghettos.
    Okay then, what positive change did they get from this? Just tell me one or two things. [/b]
    here's what I said in the other thread:

    Facts are clearly proving you wrong. The French government already made all kinds of concessions, for example they did stop enormous cuts of the budget for social workers in the French suburbs. The French government also promised millions for a social programme to help youth in the suburbs.
    "The proletariat, when it seizes power [...] should and must at once undertake socialist measures in the most energetic, unyielding and unhesitant fashion, in other words, exercise a dictatorship, but a dictatorship of the CLASS, not of a party or of a clique -- dictatorship of the class, that means in the broadest possible form on the basis of the most active, unlimited participation of the mass of the people, of unlimited democracy." - Rosa Luxemburg

    "An Rhein und Ruhr marschieren wir. / Für unsere Freiheit kämpfen wir! / Den Streifendienst, schlagt ihn entzwei! / Edelweiß marschiert – Achtung – die Straße frei!"

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    Facts are clearly proving you wrong. The French government already made all kinds of concessions, for example they did stop enormous cuts of the budget for social workers in the French suburbs. The French government also promised millions for a social programme to help youth in the suburbs.
    Well, stopping enormous budget cuts is all well and good, but I would be wary of the Government "promising" anything that is going to help Proletarian.
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    people around the world are now more aware of the conditions that immigrants have to deal with in France. i did not know myself until i watched 'la haine' a few months ago, but even then i didn't bother following it up. now i have, and i'm appalled [although not surprised - australia's pretty much the same]. i know a lot of people who feel exactly the same - they were complete unaware of what the situation was like in france, and now they're much more conscious. i'm a big fan of consciousness-raising to produce effective social change. it has worked in feminist movements, and i'm sure it will also work in this case.

    Do any of the austrialian comrades think this as h/c deja vu of the Redfern Riots last year?
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    definitely. not on as large a scale but then you have to look at the population difference.

    also to an extent the macquarie fields riots this year - not 'ethnic' wise but class based definitely.

    i think the wiki article on the paris riots even references the redfern riots..
    this post was produced on stolen land.

    to your tourist mentality, we're still the natives
    you're multicultural - but we're anti-racist!

    your heart is a muscle the size of your fist.
    keep loving. keep fighting.
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    and yet the media still labled it as an ethic riot

    where i was all we got in the news was 'Gwar blacks are rioting"
    but then again i am in the stix
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    [email protected]'gwar'

    even after the whole event, when we were still doing some actions around the block and cops were keeping a strict eye on us, they were still being fucking racist - calling us 'dirty blacks' and just generally being antagonistic in the hope of provoking violence so they could arrest some more people.

    ffs :angry:
    this post was produced on stolen land.

    to your tourist mentality, we're still the natives
    you're multicultural - but we're anti-racist!

    your heart is a muscle the size of your fist.
    keep loving. keep fighting.
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    Check out this link:

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051113/ap_on_...nce_rioting_fr1

    It says that nearly a quarter of French people think that far-right leader Jean-Marie Le Pen can solve these problems, as he has seized on the violence to promote his National Front party's "zero immigration" platform.

    That's not good at all. Like I said, these were just fuel for the far-rights fire of hatred and racist bigotry
  19. #19
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    Well, stopping enormous budget cuts is all well and good, but I would be wary of the Government "promising" anything that is going to help Proletarian.
    Indeed, thats why reformism is pointless and we should never ask for things "nicely".

    Likewise...

    In an effort to end the unrest, Villepin pledged on Monday to restore some 100 million euros ($117 million) in funding for grassroots associations working in tough neighbourhoods, and improve prospects in education, the labour market and housing.
    Short of collapsing capitalism, I think thats pretty damn good. Schools, labor, housing?

    That matters infinitely more than some right winger getting elected. Have you forgotten? The parliament of capital truely has the last say.

    True...targetting another proletarian's car isn't a great idea. I'd love to see them target the State or bourgeosie symbols with more ferocity.

    The car thing is just a smaller part of the much larger picture. Like Malte said, voting peacefully for 30 years did nothing, if they even voted at all.

    But now, in a matter of two weeks they've accomplished so much. Not only that, but the effects of this relatively small incident (this isn't exactly World War III, I don't think anybody has even gotten shot yet, its all property damage) resonate all around the world.

    A model of resistance? People see what happened here and realize that the things they want are here right in front of them and they can seize it. Not tomorrow, but today.
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    Originally posted by Ownthink@Nov 11 2005, 06:04 PM

    Actually, it makes perfect sense. Malte thinks these riots are the coolest thing since sliced cheese, and that they are absolutely right to be burning everyone's shit. I think they are just a bunch of pissed off kids burning everything they can, and random property destruction will do nothing more than to piss off the right wingers, make the Left and Muslim and African and poor and whatever movement look bad, all at the same time achieving absolutely no change at all for those poor people and the areas they live in..
    Sometimes it&#39;s just a little too late for chanting in the streets and occupying buildings. <_<
    As an Anarchist, I strangely find myself getting along better with Maoists than Platformists!

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