Socialist-Democrats

[Un-Amäraкin Bastard]

I've heard a lot about them in other threads, but I am unclear as to what exactly they are...

How do they differ from Socialists?
What do they believe?

[Zingu]

Democractic Socialists.

Nothing to do with the Democractic Party.


They're mostly a reformist party, but much more radical than any progressive. They support militant labor activism I'm pretty sure and are focused as a grassroots movement rather than some political platform like the Democracts or the Republicans.


THERE IS such a thing as a revolutionary tendancy as well in Democractic Socialism, which unfortunately I don't know much about it, all I do know is that they advocate working class revolution.

[Un-Amäraкin Bastard]

Hmm, ok. Do they have anything to do with Socialists at all?

I thought they were a mild sort of group...

[Black Dagger]

Social Democrats are 'left' capitalists, they advocate 'welfare capitalism'.

[Colombia]

Jeez they are still around? I figured they would have died off long ago.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Social Democrats are 'left' capitalists, they advocate 'welfare capitalism'.

It depends on how you view the term Social Democrat or Democratic Socialist. Lenin often described himself as a Democratic Socialist, as did Orwell. So to limit its meaning to just left Capitalists or reformists is misguided.

The term Social Democrat gained prominence during the Stalinist period of the Russian coup and was a term used by Western Communists and Socialists to distinguish themselves from the Russian brand of Socialism.

Therefore its roots lay not in reformism but rather in actual Marxists who could no longer call themselves Marxist because the term had been hijacked and destroyed by the Russian CP. Therefore Social Democrat, Democratic Socialism or Democratic Marxist all became terms of use because the correct term Marxist had been stolen and distorted.

In present day the term has changed its meaning and is generally used to describe reformists and really this goes to show just how words evolve over time. However I will guarantee you that the next time there is a large workers movement terms like Left Communism, Democratic Socialist and Democratic Marxist will once again be associated with revolutionary beliefs and will only be used to distinguish Marxists from Leninists who have the cheek to call themselves Marxist.

[ComradeOm]

Social Democrats, as distinct from Democratic Socialists, are liberals in all but name. These days the majority of the parties subscribe to that “Third Way” rubbish. The Democratic Socialists of today are slightly to the left of Social Democrats and some of them still do advocate revolutionary activities. The majority however, like the Social Democrats, are more than happy to live under capitalism. The terms were once used interchangably but over the years some minor differences have grown between the two camps.

It depends on how you view the term Social Democrat or Democratic Socialist. Lenin often described himself as a Democratic Socialist, as did Orwell. So to limit its meaning to just left Capitalists or reformists is misguided.

The term Social Democrat gained prominence during the Stalinist period of the Russian coup and was a term used by Western Communists and Socialists to distinguish themselves from the Russian brand of Socialism.

Therefore its roots lay not in reformism but rather in actual Marxists who could no longer call themselves Marxist because the term had been hijacked and destroyed by the Russian CP. Therefore Social Democrat, Democratic Socialism or Democratic Marxist all became terms of use because the correct term Marxist had been stolen and distorted.

In present day the term has changed its meaning and is generally used to describe reformists and really this goes to show just how words evolve over time. However I will guarantee you that the next time there is a large workers movement terms like Left Communism, Democratic Socialist and Democratic Marxist will once again be associated with revolutionary beliefs and will only be used to distinguish Marxists from Leninists who have the cheek to call themselves Marxist.

The split between the revisionist and Social Democrats and Communists came at the start of WWI when the Social Democrat parties voted wholeheartedly in support of war. It was after that betrayal that the term Communist became more commonly applied to those who still saw revolution as the only means of progressing to socialism. In supporting the war the revisionists proved what the Communists had long suspected – that those Democratic Socialist parties that dedicated themselves to capitalist politics were ultimately corrupted by the very system they sought to reform.

I'm also slightly amused that the vast majority of Social Democratic/Democratic Socialist parties that you believe are the true Marxists renounced Marxism long ago.

[Amusing Scrotum]

The split between the revisionist and Social Democrats and Communists came at the start of WWI when the Social Democrat parties voted wholeheartedly in support of war. It was after that betrayal that the term Communist became more commonly applied to those who still saw revolution as the only means of progressing to socialism. In supporting the war the revisionists proved what the Communists had long suspected – that those Democratic Socialist parties that dedicated themselves to capitalist politics were ultimately corrupted by the very system they sought to reform.

I was using the British Labour Party as my example of Social Democracy, however you are right with regards the German Social Democrats and the Communists splitting over the First World War. So my reference as to the prominence of the terms Social Democrat, Democratic Socialist and Democratic Marxist was based on the way those terms were used in the Labour Party membership.

It was also, if I'm not mistaken, the term the Fabian society used to describe themselves. They were Marxists who believed Parliamentary Revolution was possible, a view which has never really been tested so can't be completely disregarded.

So in essence what I said is true with regards the meaning of the words Social Democrat, Democratic Socialism and Democratic Marxism with regards the British left, its just they don't apply to parts of the wider European left.

I'm also slightly amused that the vast majority of Social Democratic/Democratic Socialist parties that you believe are the true Marxists renounced Marxism long ago.

Marxism was still a big influence on the British Labour Party until the purges of the late eighties and early nineties. It was killed by the modification of clause 4, but that still means that there were true Marxists in the Labour Party rank and file up until the 90s. So my statement about the original meaning of the words Social Democrat and Democratic Socialism does apply as to the Labour movement of the 30s as Marxism was not completely abandoned by that movement until the 90s.

[tatu]

>Social-Democracy - CLICK HERE<

[Comrade Corinna]

the dictionary definition is:

democratic socialism
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: a form of socialism with a democratic government; the ownership and control of the means of production, capital, land, property, etc., by the community as a whole -- combined with a democratic government


Basically, I consider myself somewhat a Democratic Socialist, as I believe in Socialism but also a Democracy, not a dictatorship. However it is implied that Democratic Socialists can live under capitalism and like it, and I cant.

[Un-Amära&#1082;in Bastard]

Originally posted by Socialist Corinna@Nov 4 2005, 02:12 AM
the dictionary definition is:

democratic socialism
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: a form of socialism with a democratic government; the ownership and control of the means of production, capital, land, property, etc., by the community as a whole -- combined with a democratic government


Basically, I consider myself somewhat a Democratic Socialist, as I believe in Socialism but also a Democracy, not a dictatorship. However it is implied that Democratic Socialists can live under capitalism and like it, and I cant.

Cool, that works, thanks...

I may consider myself a Democratic Socialist also, as I believe to a certain extent that Socialism can only survive for an extended period of time with a form of Democracy...

@Tatu
Nice article, that helped a lot, thanks also...