The Real Cost of Zionism

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by JC1@Oct 4 2005, 02:46 AM

Can you say "Northern Ireland" ? "Southern korea" ? Palistine has only been occupied since 1967.

Oh, JC. What crap indeed.

Palestine has only been occupied since 1967? You should take another look at history pal.

The party I support recognizes the right of return up to 1949.

Though you rightly point out that ameriKKKan imperialism is the bigger oppressor, you are way to soft on Zionism and fail to regocnize I$rael for the world force and imperialist country it is.

And don't call Zionism "Jewish National Liberation". How can you have liberation without a nation? Now that there is a nation of I$rael, Zionism is simply racism, Zionism is fascistic and by it's very essence it embodies colonialism.

[HoorayForTheRedBlackandGreen]

I think I sense anti-semitism. You do tend to paint things as Jewish conspiracies.

"Do you even know what Zionism is? The official goal of Zionism has always been the complete explusion of all Arabs from Israel. It is indeed a racist ideology since its purpose is to create a Jewish majority in Palestine. That's why the Jews have been illegally placing settlements in land that isn't legally part of Israel."

Its the creation of a Jewish homeland. They really need one. Maybe a Palestinian majority is racist in favor of Palestinians?

You say "the Jews" like its all Jews. Stop stereotyping.

I agree, Israel is a war-crime commiting state, and that needs to stop. However, painting all Jews as imperialist dogs isn't fair.

[Intifada]

(JC1)

Jewish Natinol liberation.

Straight up false. The Zionist movement at one point was planing on settling in uganda. Zionism is not some anti-arab conspiracy.

The Zionists set out with a plan to create an exclusively Jewish state in the Middle East, and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people has been a crucial aspect of the Zionist project.

Herzl wrote himself in 1895:

We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our country... both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out secretly and circumspectly.

As Ben-Gurion later proclaimed, they would:

Drive them [the Palestinians] out and take their place.

Historian Tom Segev sums the Zionist policy up:

The idea of transfer had accompanied the Zionist movement from its very beginnings, first appearing in Theodore Herzl's diary. In practice, the Zionists began executing a mini-transfer from the time they began purchasing the land and evacuating the Arab tenants.... "Disappearing" the Arabs lay at the heart of the Zionist dream, and was also a necessary condition of its existence.... With few exceptions, none of the Zionists disputed the desirability of forced transfer — or its morality.

Yes, places such as Uganda and Argentina were possible settlements for the Jews, but Palestine was the number one choice, and one that they decided to follow up, mainly because of the religious connotations that it holds.

Jewish national liberation is just a little part of the whole story.

There already is a Jewish majorit in palistine, dumbass.

There was not a Jewish majority in 1948 though.

The Jewish majority has been created through the forced transfer - ethnic cleansing - of Palestinians.

[Free Palestine]

Jewish Natinol liberation.

Since when does "liberation" entail subjugating, humiliating, oppressing, massacring, occupying, and dispossesssing millions of indigenous inhabitants?

The Zionist movement at one point was planing on settling in uganda. Zionism is not some anti-arab conspiracy.

The obvious logictics of Zionism, in clear but simple terms, is that you steal a land and murder or displace the population. That is still a work in progress. It has nothing to do with Arabs nor did I suggest it was an "anti-Arab conspiracy." Reading works.

There already is a Jewish majorit in palistine, dumbass.

Are you an idiot? I was speaking in regards to before Israel's conception.

The official goal of Zionism has always been the complete explusion of all Arabs from Israel.

Straight up false.

The bulk of the evidence does not support this belief. The bulk of the evidence shows strongly that the departure by one means or another (read: ethnic cleansing) of the non-Jewish natives of Palestine was considered by most mainstream Zionist political leaders to be a necessary part of the creation of a viable Jewish state.

All one has to do is to read the statements of the Zionist pioneers about Palestine to know this -- the Zionist desire for the alienation and eventual expulsion of the original inhabitants residing in the land designed for a "Jewish state" is no secret.

Earlier in 1895, Theodor Herzl, 'Father of Zionism,' and founder of the World Zionist Organization, wrote in his Diary that:

Originally posted by Theodor Herzl+--> (Theodor Herzl)"We must expropriate gently the private property on the state assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it employment in our country. The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discretely and circumspectly. Let the owners of the immoveable property believe that they are cheating us, selling us things for more than they are worth. But we are not going to sell them anything back."[/b]

Source: America and The Founding Of Israel, p. 49

Originally posted by Theodore Herzl+--> (Theodore Herzl) "We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country .... expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."[/b]

Source: Rafael Patai, Ed. The Complete Diaries of Theodore Herzl, Vol I

Originally posted by Theodore [email protected] 19th century advocate of Political Zionism
"We can be the vanguard of culture against barbarism."

Source: Tom Segev, "One Palestine Complete," p. 150

In October 1882, Validimir Dubnow, one of the earliest Zionist pioneers in Palestine, wrote to his brother articulating the ultimate goals of the Zionists movement:

Originally posted by Validimir Dubnow
"The ultimate goal...is, in time, to take over the Land of Israel and to restore to the Jews the political independence they have been deprived of for these two thousand years...The Jews will yet arise and, arms in hand (if need be), declare that they are the masters of their ancient homeland."

Source: Righteous Victims, p. 49


In October 1882 Ben-Yehuda and Yehiel Michal Pines, few of the earliest Zionist pioneers in Palestine, wrote describing the indigenous Palestinians, that

Originally posted by Ben-Yehuda & Yehiel Michal Pines
"...There are now only five hundred [thousand] Arabs, who are not very strong, and from whom we shall easily take away the country if only we do it through stratagems [and] without drawing upon us their hostility before we become the strong and populous ones."

Source: Righteous Victims, p. 49


In 1937, Zionist pioneer David Ben-Gurion eloquently articulated the Zionist goals regarding population transfer as the following:

David Ben-Gurion

@
With compulsory transfer we [would] have a vast area [for settlement] ....I support compulsory transfer. I don't see anything immoral in it.

Source: Righteous Victims, p. 144


In 1936 the Mapai leader David Hacohen explained how Zionist socialism should be for Jews not Arabs, he stated that:

I remember being one of the first of our comrades [of the Ahdut Ha'avodah

to got to London after the first World War. ... There I became a socialist. ... [In Palestine] I had to fight my friends on the issue of Jewish socialism, to defend the fact that I would not accept Arabs in my trade union, the Histadrut; to defend preaching to the housewives that they not buy at [Palestinian] Arab stores, to prevent [Palestinian] Arab workers from getting jobs there. .... To pour kerosene on the [Palestinian] Arab tomatoes; to attack Jewish housewives in the markets and smash the Arab eggs they had bought; to praise to the skies the Keneen Kayemet [Jewish National Fund] that sent Hankin to Beirut to buy land from absentee effendi [landlords] and to throw the fellahin [peasants] off the land-- to buy dozens of dunums-- from an Arab is permitted, but to sell, God forbid, one Jewish dunam to an Arab is prohibited.

Source: Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 25


Like I said, if you don't believe me go read the work by Zionists yourself. Especially 'Explusion of the Palestinians,' which is based on Israel's own declassified government documents.

Zionism is racism. It is an ideology that professes the superiority of one ethnic group over another. If you fail to recognize this then you are willfully ignorant, the fact remains to anyone willing to see it that it is an ideology that allows its followers to think of ethnic cleansing as a moral right.

This attitude continues to this day. From a Haaretz (Israeli daily newspaper) poll which appeared in the paper recently:

More Israeli Jews favor transfer of Palestinians & Israeli Arabs:

Some 46 percent of Israel's Jewish citizens favor transferring Palestinians out of the territories, while 31 percent favor transferring Israeli Arabs out of the country, according to the Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies' annual national security public opinion poll.

[marxist_socialist_aussie]

zionism may not be a great ideology, it may infact be a horid one, however some of what has been said so far borders on anti-semitism and some sort of big 'jewish conspiracy' type thing and that is not right. Yes, there are jewish people in Israel who would wish for the removal of Palestinians, but there are also Palestinians who essentailly wish for a 2'nd holocaust, both thoughts are disgusting and wrong. I am no fan of many of the actions of the Israeli government and Israel as a state, however that isn't an excuse to either bring forth old anti-jewish sentiment (whether meaningfully implied or by mistake) or to ignore all the problems inherent in terms of the Palestinians and greater Middle East in general.

I am in favour of the establishment of a free, independant Palestinian State, however this should never cloud any thought on the fact that there are huge problems ont he Palestinians side, not the least of whichw ould be the possibility of the establishment of a fundamentalist muslim state in the vain of the Taliban, something I think would be a disaster for all palestinian people, not least of which the women.

Also, finally dude, that last little quote with survey statistics, if I am reading that right, it still means that 54% of Israel's Jewish citizens don't support transferring Palestinians out of the territories and 69% don't favour tranferring Israeli Arabs out of the country. Both of those number are majorities.

[Free Palestine]

some of what has been said so far borders on anti-semitism and some sort of big 'jewish conspiracy' type thing and that is not right.

Once again: Do you deny the power and influence of AIPAC? Do you deny the overt bias of US foreign policy towards Israel? Of the mass media? Do you deny there exist many wealthy and influential Jewish citizens in the US who lobby Congress and powerful politicians in support of Israel? Do you deny many politicians and media moguls are themselves Jewish? Does believing in any of these things discredit you or make you nothing but a wild conspiracy theorist?

What kind of idiotic argument is this? Does believing in the power of Zionist lobbyists make me a believer in an "international Jewish conspiracy"? No, I think it's just a fact that they exist and they have some influence. Cries of "conspiracy" are just attempts by childish idiots like yourself to discredit a rationale belief.

It is impossible to raise the subject of Zionist influence without also causing a great hue and cry in certain quarters that declare such a thought is “anti-Semitic”.

Also, finally dude, that last little quote with survey statistics, if I am reading that right, it still means that 54% of Israel's Jewish citizens don't support transferring Palestinians out of the territories and 69% don't favour tranferring Israeli Arabs out of the country. Both of those number are majorities.

Aren't you getting dizzy from all that spin? So 54% don't openly claim to support ethnic cleansing? Real humanitarian credentials.

[HoorayForTheRedBlackandGreen]

I'm in a certain corner, it turns out. You want to create a Palestinian majority, don't you? How is that any better than a Jewish majority. How about they just make two different countries? You can't just kick all of the jews out now, they consider Israel their home. I do think you're anti-semetic. Your Lenin avatar doesn't improve my opinion of your politics any either.

[Intifada]

Originally posted by HoorayForTheRedBlackandGreen@Oct 6 2005, 08:33 PM
You want to create a Palestinian majority, don't you?

Um, no.

Nobody has advocated anything other than the just Palestinian struggle for freedom and justice.

How about they just make two different countries?

That is a possible solution to the conflict.

It is not one I support, however, as I would rather see one socialist state where Arabs and Jews can live with equal rights.

The Zionists, the only obstacle to peace, oppose both solutions.

You can't just kick all of the jews out now, they consider Israel their home.

Nobody, once again, has advocated that.

I do think you're anti-semetic.

Unsubstatiated claims such as this only make you look idiotic.

Your Lenin avatar doesn't improve my opinion of your politics any either.

Irrelevant.

[Free Palestine]

You want to create a Palestinian majority, don't you?

No. The refugees simply want to cement their legal right to return to their homes where they were driven from and left in the two instances of Zionist ethnic cleansing of historic Palestine. Nobody is asking Israel to 'give up' all of the land which was stolen from the Palestinians. We are however, asking Israel to withdraw from the land which it illegally occupies in defiance of UN resolutions and allow the people with an actual right to live there ( under international law ) to return. To me, it is sickening that Zionists can contend they have some god-given right to return to a land where their distant ancestors lives thousands of years ago, and deny the Palestinians their current legal right to return, where many of them lived at a early stage in their lives.