What do you fight for? - June 14th in Lithuania

Visinskis · 15th June 2002, 00:48

Hello,

At first, I have to admit, I'm not leftist, but i'm not a rightist or centrist either. There's no doctrine i would like to chose: all of them have something good/bad.

I live in a country which was annexed by the Soviets for 50 years. And I have lots to tell about the realisation of communism.
Today (June 14th) is a memorable day in Lithuania: in 1941 soviets started killing, exhiling people. There were about 3 million people in 1941 and 1/10 of them were victims of the regime in the bloody June. Teachers, writers, politicians, officers, priests, journalists, farmers, even workers, their children were put into wagons and brought to Syberia where only the strongest survived. Children buried alive, people starving and eating fecals, old men shot down for fun. This is the cruel reality.
Is this what are you fighting for?
Lithuania was an independent state from 1918 to 1940. My grandfather was a communist in that time. The government persecuted communists, so they put my grandpa into jail on every Russian communist fest came: he always rose the red flag. On the October 11th of 1939 we signed a internecine help pseudotreaty which was our own digged hole. My grandpa went to the Belorus to meet the coming soviet army. They exhiled him for 7 years as a political convict which means almost no chances for good job, for a shelter etc. Quite ironic, isn't it?
Well, often people like to say: the USSR was a misinterpretation of a good idea.

Show me a state (and there were lots of them, few of them are still communist) who could reach the commiunist paradise without harming their own people. China- they were floundering till they changed thei economy. Cuba- are they really happy or told to be so? North Korea- the living hell. Viet Nam- not much progressed, uh? Angola- i hope they are still alive.
You can't show me anything.

you can't change human's nature in a violent way. Human is egoistic and can never walk in anyone's shoes, human is greedy. 50 years of totalitarian oppression couldn't change it. No revolutions can do better.
You have so many examples of communism failing and you still have hope to see the equal world made by killing? I believe that some day communism will come. But it will come naturally, when all/almost all material needs of humanity will be satisfied.

Please, don't delete my post, I'm not offending anyone, I'm just trying to figure out why do people still believe? And I often see fanatism in your eyes.

Sorry for jumping thoughts.

**Angie** · 15th June 2002, 04:42

I don't mean to sound offensive, either, but you should really take a moment to read this forum before you post. You don't appear to understand our general viewpoint here at all - a quick read through the posts in each forum would have helped sort that out without your needing to post this here.

You're welcome to start in the Socialism vs Capitalism forum - look though the threads that mention Stalinism, and you'll see that the bulk of the Left Wing folk here actually do NOT support the USSR's Stalinist regime that you spoke of, even one iota.

Stop. Read. Learn. Thanks.

**Field Marshal** · 15th June 2002, 06:38

Cuba is the country that you are looking for. Just because Castro leads the country doesn't mean he is harming his people, or that his people are "told to do so," as you state. I would like to see evidence of this claim.

Che worked so hard for a revolutionary way of life. He and the cuban people were seeking to create a life of altruism. And I will never accept that he and his efforts were all a waste of time. There is no standard human nature.

You also must keep in mind that the USSR was the first. Name a newborn nation in history that has progressed without killing? When something is new, it is often misused. It was the first time, they couldn't learn from anyone else's mistakes but their own. We are the generation who will and have learned from the past. Things will be different.

Visinskis · 15th June 2002, 07:26

FieldMarshall,

1.You are the god of naiveness.
2.You are a Cuban propagandist.

USSR was so damn good. There were just some little things that disturbed movin from socialism to communism: some criminals, some junkies and the rotten capitalist world, where 99% wanted to go. The communism states were/are built on lies and oppression. All of them.
If Cuba is so good, why are people fleeing to Florida etc.? They can't realize themselves, they are not free to choose.

That's what I'm trying to say: communism proved cannot be existing in real, because it tries to change the human nature. It causes an ocean of pain.

So, all of you, raising fists and waving flags, shouting "smash capitalism", do you want to be the ruling minority?
Do you want to equal the world? Do you want to have fun shooting people? Are you fighting for the human rights? animal rights? I can't get it.

Is there any people older than 30?

Visinskis · 15th June 2002, 07:53

Angie,

Well, my first impression on this forum I got some two weeks ago: a guy, whos avatar was some soviet symbol, was asking what is bolshevism,
a russian fanatic shouting for Stalin to come back, cuz he hates his boss. =]

Well, I'll try to ask in a more understandable way: how many of you still believe the dictatorship of proletariat can function?

Hayduke · 15th June 2002, 08:02

Visinskis,

This is a very difficult topic for every member on this board,
but I will try to answer it as good as possible.

Would you please look around you ? What do
you see ? I see many fucked up things like racism and
people that are homeless and have no job.
I see the so called " war on terrorism thats killing millions of people ". The word is unfair to alot of people...and the
word equeal ishard to find.

Stalin and his Sovjet Union were horrible and Im not defending
the bastard for a minute. But times have changed we now have
many things that would make it impossible for a communist leader to send all his enemies to death camps. ( media )
The time is ready that people finally work side on side and will make something of this world.
One men can't do very much but many can make something of
this world.

I hope I made myself clear, got a bit carried away.
If you have any more questions please ask,

Cheers

Bas

**Reuben** · 15th June 2002, 16:47

There are a number countries in which we have seen a good and democratic society in the process of being bult by commmunist revolution.

Two such examples are nicuragua and Chile, in Marxist transition preserved and extended democracy, and where regimes were ended not by internal contrdictions but by U.S. dictatorial involvement

**Xvall** · 15th June 2002, 16:51

Communism has yet to be achieved, and just because the Soviet Union may have been considered 'communist', and did bad things, that does not mean that 'communism' in general is bad. The Nazis were 'German', and they did bad things, but that in no way means that 'Germans' are responsible. That in no way means that 'Germans' should not be allowed certain things

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