Does it really matter what the fascists and/or nazis like.
What are you sugesting, including fascists if their (not) nazis? :angry:
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While I oppose Fascism and Nazism, the two are not one and the same. While all Nazis are Fascists, not all fascists are Nazis.
In fact, I know some pro-Gay Rights and anti-Racist Fascists.
My point is, is that you shouldn't automatically group Nazis and Fascists together. Would you Bolsheviks on C-L like it if everyone who heard that you were a Bolshevik believed you to be a National Bolshevik? Of course not.
If we want to garner support for the anti-Nazi and anti-Hate movements, we have to be more inclusive.
Does it really matter what the fascists and/or nazis like.
What are you sugesting, including fascists if their (not) nazis? :angry:
You can't learn to swim in a library.
I see no reason why we shouldn't if our GOAL is to eradicate racism.
If the goal is to fight against totalitarianism then they are the enemy.
Capitalist totalitarianism such as fascism, is as much our enemy as racism. But say.... Castro's style of totalitarianism is just undesirable, as I'm sure even he'd agree.
I once read an article, where someone was trying to say that being a "white skinned" anti-fascist, was an oxy moron. Where their article proved that they were a moron more than anything :P , I would tend to go their direction in saying that; being an anti-racist fascist is an oxy moron. Mousolini(sp?) did not have a problem with jews directly. However his government, set up in typical fascist style, pitted everyone against eachother, while building a fervent nationalist sentiment amongst the workers. I don't know how much closer to racism you can get.
The United States, pretends to believe that all were created equal under God, and makes business arrangements with people male/female/red/black/blue. This doesn't mean that they have any interest in abolishing racism, and thwarting nationalist ideals.
As an Anarchist, I strangely find myself getting along better with Maoists than Platformists!
Personally I consider any overly authoritarian power structure which sacrifices human life towards the cult of ego of it's leaders which leaves millions dead to be facist, this would include bureaucratic monstronsities including STALIN!
Sorry Stalinists!
<span style=\'color:blue\'> "The necrophilous person can relate to an object--a flower or a person--only if he possesses it; hence a threat to his possession is a threat to himself . . He loves control, and in the act of controlling he kills life." <span style=\'color:red\'>[Erich Fromm, "The Heart of Man"] </span></span>
<span style=\'colorurple\'> It is not the unloved who intitiate disaffection, but those who cannot love because they only love themselves."</span> <span style=\'color:red\'>Paulo Freire, Pedagogy of the Oppressed</span>
What's your point? Because some fascists are more inclusive of some groups we should be more tolerant of them. Both represent the complete degeneration of capitalism and stand for essentially the same points, give or take or racial questions. As for grouping NBs and Bolsheviks together, the two are drastically different ideologies and we'd have every right to be offended by comparing us to neo-nazis.
There were two “Reigns of Terror,” if we would but remember it and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passion, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon ten thousand persons, the other upon a hundred millions; but our shudders are all for the “horrors” of the minor Terror, the momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe, compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty, and heart-break? What is swift death by lightning compared with death by slow fire at the stake? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief Terror which we have all been so diligently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror... --- Mark Twain
I never said that we should be more tolerant of them.
Let me rephrase what I've been trying to say:
If our goal is to eradicate racism and fight against totalitarianism, then we should take advantage of those who agree with us that racism is wrong and use them as allies. Once we've achieved our goal of eliminating racism, then we can fight against totalitarianism, our second goal. Unless, of course, these fascists pose a direct and immeadiate threat to our movement.
As for working with Fascists, that is not an option. All Nazis are Fascists, not all Fascists are Nazis, you're right about that. However, the extreme nationalism that is always involved in Fascism makes them one and the same from a revolutionary stand-point. Whether they are overtly racist or not. Because we are revolutionaries, and not reformers, we can never work with our enemies. In the process of fighting these smaller battles, we can never lose sight of the fact that it is only one battle in the greater class war. As such, we can't compromise the war for one battle.
No matter how temporary that compromise may be.
I know a fascist who isn't a racist, or at least denies he is one. I don't think we should worry too much about non-discriminatory fascists, real Nazi's and militant radical right wingers are a bigger priority.
The political spectrum in the United States is so narrow and so far to the right that any "election" or "debate" is simply two aristocrats trying to please the sheep who follow them blindly wherever the leader tells them to go.
Personally, I have neither the time nor the energy to seperate right wingers into more or less palatable groups along hair-splitting idealogical lines. Short of a complete renunciation of the politics of exploitation, I have no use for any of them.
That said, I agree with CyM. The real problem is class, issues like racism and sexism are merely distractions in which the elites are only too happy to indulge.
O, why should wrath be mute, and fury dumb?
I am no baby, I, that with base prayers
I should repent the evils I have done:
Ten thousand worse than ever yet I did
Would I perform, if I might have my will;
If one good deed in all my life I did,
I do repent it from my very soul.
Act V, Scene III; Titus Andronicus--W. Shakespeare
Most facist claim not to be racist, even nationalist claim not to be racist. I have read many Nationalist sites that claim they are not racist yet want a segregated becuase other races hold back white people.
The spiritual atom bomb which the revolutionary people possess is a far more powerful and useful weapon than the physical atom bomb. - Lin Biao
Our code of morals is our revolution. What saves our revolution, what helps our revolution, what protects our revolution is right, is very right and very honourable and very noble and very beautiful, because our revolution means justice
- Dr. George Habash, founder of the PFLP.
I agree. They are not the same.
No, they're not even that. They are active in their local anti-Racist groups, they've attended anti-racist protests, written anti-racist essays, among other things. He's collected a few followers, they call themselves "Civitists"
His screenname is Jesse on PoliticsForum.org
yes and Nick Griffin proclaims not to be a Nazi nor a Racist, yet he wants to get everyone non white and non fully british out of england!
well i must say! i'm off out of the country then!
DRS- Saddam Was Pure Evil, That We All Know, But He Captured By A More Corrupt Man Who Just Wanted All His Dough
Congratulations. You've just completely ignored every point I've made.
Nice theoritic shit, but what does it mean in real life?
The fascist wants the foreigners out, the nazi wants the foreigners out. I'll bash them both!
Let no one charge that socialists have arrayed class against class in this struggle. That has been done long since in the evolution of capitalist society. One class is small and rich and the other large and poor....One consists of capitalists and the other of workers. These two classes are at war. Every day of peace is at the expense of labor. There can be no peace and good will between these two essentially antagonistic economic classes. - Debs
Yes, I see no problem with working against them when we have our differences [i.e. when they want a dictator when, obviously, we don't, we should work against that.] but why not work with them on what we have in common? That's called being pragmatic.
How bout instead of fighting racism and totalitarianism as singular components of a much larger problem we realize the much larger problem.... oh wait, we already have!!!! It's called classism. Anyone who stands for a system that willfully and unapolegetically supports classes is our enemy. End of story, from the simply ignorant racist, to the most strict fascist.
Edit: I replaced unreasonably with unapolegetically because at the time I couldn't think of the kind of word I was looking for, it's still not exactly what I'm trying to say, but I can clarify by adding another point.
There are some socio-political systems which are conscious and overt about their class nature, other's less so. It should be noted that ANY system which allows these classes (knowingly or not) is the greater problem. Although, there are obviously certain people who are simply unaware of the class issue, who if made aware, would become our ally. Currently reactionary working class members are very much this way.
That is well said, we do not need to cater to any of these groups needs; they are all our enemies. There groups even though they do not specifically act in the same ways, all of them support the very thing we need to destroy, a class society.
You can't learn to swim in a library.
