Anarchism is NOT Primitivism

[redstar2000]

Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism

by Andrew Flood

Over the last decade a generalized critique of civilization has been made by a number of authors, mostly based in the USA. Some of these have chosen to identify as anarchists although the more general self-identification is primitivist. There overall argument is that 'civilisation' itself is the problem that results in our failure to live rewarding lives. The struggle for change is thus a struggle against civilization and for an earth where technology has been eliminated.

Full Text


This is a somewhat lengthy but extraordinarily well-argued polemic against primitivism written from an anarchist viewpoint.

I highly recommend it!



The Redstar2000 Papers
A site about communist ideas

[The Children of the Revolution]

Not a bad article. The people thank 'RedStar' for his tireless efforts to educate the masses; for digging up such gems and so on. (Perhaps&#33

[From the aforementioned article]

The major problem is not simply that capitalism has been happy to leave a huge proportion of the world's population in poverty. The problem is also that development has been aimed at creating consumers for future products rather then providing what people need.

This is the major point that Andrew Flood raises, in my opinion. I know the piece was written about the rejection of "primitivism"; I know it tried to separate this from Anarchism - but I think most of us were aware of the distinction.

Personally, I don't have much time for "primitivism". I have voiced my opposition to crazy space exploration schemes, yes... They would use far too many valuable resources and offer few benefits. I am also against the development of high-tech weaponary, as advocated by comrade Noxion... 'Black Hole Inducer', anyone? :P This is a waste of time too. Technology should certainly be developed - for the benefit of the people.

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

So if we lived as neanderthals did we would be happier?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

So if we lived as neanderthals did we would be happier?

The article says almost certainly not.

I have voiced my opposition to crazy space exploration schemes, yes...

Space exploration programs full stop or simply ones that seem farfetched?

Believe me, we WILL need to leave this planet one day.

[The Children of the Revolution]

"I have voiced my opposition to crazy space exploration schemes, yes..."

Space exploration programs full stop or simply ones that seem farfetched?

Believe me, we WILL need to leave this planet one day.

Off you go then, Noxion! Bye! Don't forget to take a towel!

There are more pressing issues for technology to deal with.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

There are more pressing issues for technology to deal with.

Such as?

[The Children of the Revolution]

Such as many things!

Curing diseases? I forget quite how many millions die every year due to AIDS and Cancer, but I'm sure it's more than will be likely to watch a shiny new spaceship leave for Mars, or wherever it is you plan to take us to.

Or what about developing sustainable energy resources? Or properly thought out genetically modified foodstuffs, to feed the worlds poor?

There are many possibilities, comrade.

[apathy maybe]

Primitivism is something that a lot of Greens claim is inevitable. The theory being that when the world screws up (though such things as global warming) enough we shall be forced to become communist just to survive 'cause all our fancy tech shall not work any more.

Some Greens believe that Technology is needed and necessary. Like a lot of things technology can be used for good and bad.

I believe that we can survive with out screwing up the world anymore, with the current level of technology. It is going to be harder if the population continues to grow as fast as it is, but possible.

(And as a final thing a link that is similar to primitivism is www.vhemt.org, very strange site.)

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Curing diseases? I forget quite how many millions die every year due to AIDS and Cancer, but I'm sure it's more than will be likely to watch a shiny new spaceship leave for Mars, or wherever it is you plan to take us to.

Try asking NASA or Jet Propulsion Labs to work on a cure for cancer.
Research is not like money, of which you have a limited amount and spend as you see fit. A scientist who has studied Electromagnetism or nuclear physics for most of their life is unlikely to know much about biology, let alone specific branches such as Medicine or Virology. there are already plenty of researchers who can work on diseases. There are effective treatments for the symptoms of AIDS (I think) but they cost money, something that won't exist with communism.
The gift economy is THE ultimate economy.

Or what about developing sustainable energy resources?

These people want money. they are already working on it; again the constraints of capitalist economy are slowing them down.

Or properly thought out genetically modified foodstuffs, to feed the worlds poor?

We don't need them... yet. there is enough food produced daily to feed everyone suffeciently, once again it is the economic system that is causing problems.
But you have the same problems as with getting rocket scientists to work on AIDS... totally the wrong tool for the job. It's like using a kitchen knife as a screwdriver. you could hurt yourself.

'technology' is not some magic wand that you wave and makes everything better.
But it does make life a hell of a lot better.

apathy maybe

Primitivism is something that a lot of Greens claim is inevitable. The theory being that when the world screws up (though such things as global warming) enough we shall be forced to become communist just to survive 'cause all our fancy tech shall not work any more.

Why not? will the 'curse of mother nature' render all technology useless?

[apathy maybe]

The theory goes that the damns will burst, the powerlines wil die and communications will crumble.
With out power, what do you have? That is not to say I support the theory, but it is one going around Green groups.

Also as to space technology etc. Being able to conduct experiments in space has been a big boon for many areas of science. While a large workable space station at one of the Lagrangian points (do a web search) would be nice; I don't think we need any other space colonisation.

On birth and death rates, wouldn't it be nice if every had the same level of tech we had. It would mean that we couldn't have private cars and quite possibly private washing machines or cloths dryers; but hey I don't mind at all. This would mean that the birth rate everywhere would start going down, which is always a good thing.

[CorporationsRule]

I hope you all die so I can run with deer.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Try not to look too much like a deer, I'm going hunting tonight.

Or maybe this morning...

[CorporationsRule]

"When a place gets crowded enough to require ID's, social collapse is not far away. It is time to go elsewhere. The best thing about space travel is that it made it possible to go elsewhere" - Robert A Heinlein

I hadn't realized you were a primitivist my man.

The primitivist movement could use fascists like you to kill off the surplus population.

Welcome aboard!

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I fail to see what is so primitivist about space travel.

The primitivist movement could use fascists like you to kill off the surplus population.

Why do you seem to think technology = fascism?

I don't plan on killing significant numbers of the Earth's population... Whatever gave you that idea?

[CorporationsRule]

1) I never said technology = fascism

2) All fascist plan on killing significant numbers of people, it's just subconscious sometimes, often not defining a certain group of people as not people.

3) I explained to you in great detail why it's obvious that you're a fascist

4) If you want to get away from the ID cards you're going to have to get rid of a whole lot of people, seeing as there is no fucking way you're going to space.

5) This list is in no particular order

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

1) I never said technology = fascism

That's your implication - your constant accusation of me being a fascist, combined with my championing (Is that a word?) of technology as the best thing that humanity has ever discovered. The implication that I am sort of techno-fascist is obvious.

2) All fascist plan on killing significant numbers of people, it's just subconscious sometimes, often not defining a certain group of people as not people.

Don't psycho-analyse me, I doubt you're qualified. Do you think that one day I'll send my red armies rampaging across the globe, laying waste to all that opposes me?

3) I explained to you in great detail why it's obvious that you're a fascist

I consider that libelous and will bring it up with the administration.

4) If you want to get away from the ID cards you're going to have to get rid of a whole lot of people, seeing as there is no fucking way you're going to space.

Oh Really?

[DEPAVER]

Interesting essay....

I haven't met any of these so-called "primitivists" in the USA, but I'm sure there are people that believe such things. In my opinion, they are extremists, just as Republican's are extremists on the other side of the pendulum.

There's no question whatsoever that we're going to reach peak oil production before 2015, both sides appear to agree on that premise; however, there is much disagreement about how that may affect civilization. Bush and his merry band of piglets are certainly alarmed, but more from the standpoint of hording wealth and getting all they can while they can, not from any concern about having to park the pickup truck once and for all.

As for alternative technologies, I see a lot of good coming from certain technologies and a lot of bad coming from others, specifically certain types of fuel cells. But the problem isn't technology, it's consumption. People just need to use less and live more simply in order for us to escape what I believe are almost certain environmental catastrophies.

My personal opinion is that there will be a combination of things forcing mankind to seek alternative modes of livng and social organization, but there will always be large concentrations of people living in cities. Socio/economic/environmental breakdowns may force us to find some sensible middle way, whereby we can grow a green/eco based democracy outward, from the community, to the region and to the nation. If we reorganized bioregionally, and learned to live more simply within those bioregional boundaries, I believe it is possible to use technology and live well without massive dieoffs.

Brought into right relationships with the wilderness,
man would see that his appropriation of Earth's resources
beyond his personal needs would only bring imbalance
and beget ultimate loss and poverty for all.
-- John Muir

"Things that can't go on forever, don't."
--Stein's Law

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by apathy maybe@Jun 15 2004, 06:51 AM
(And as a final thing a link that is similar to primitivism is www.vhemt.org, very strange site.)

I'm shocked by that site!

Maybe they should produce condoms for poor people instead of speaking such crap as how we need to "voluntarily stop breeding". They DO have a point however to an extent, still I see no sense on both reproducing and not reproducing.