Thread: 'What is to be done?'...

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  1. #1
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    Okay...after all the discussion we've had on here about Abby Normal and whether she is, or is not a Nazi, I decided to go on The Phora to see what else she says and perhaps provide myself with a better position from which to make a decision. In the end I decided she wasn't a Nazi as such although she did seem quite right wing and homophobic.

    Anyway that's beside the point. Before now I'd never come into contact with Nazi thoughts and ideas, and as such I took the stance that it was something to be watched out for and fought against through education. However after reading lots of posts which were racist, homophobic and anti-semitic I find myself in a bit of a dilemma. I know we should seek to educate the future generations to be more understanding in a bid to stop Nazism but now I'm wondering if it will ever be enough.

    I know there are hardcore Nazis out there and I have a feeling that all the education in the world won't stop them but this poses the question of what are we to do with them? I'm aware that we may be called on to fight them again some day but should we actively seek to destroy them with violence beforehand? Being gay I realise it can be seen as hypocritical to seek to destroy them with the same vengeance that they persecuted us, and this is where the dilemma lies. I know that if needs must I will fight them to the death, but what other options are left open for us?

    Are there any other options apart from eradicating them totally through education and/or violence? Should we merely use education and live forever with the sword of Damocles hanging over our heads?

    All thoughts gratefully recieved...
    <span style=\'color:blue\'>&#39;That faith makes blessed under certain circumstances, that blessedness does not make of a fixed idea a true idea, that faith moves no mountains but puts mountains where there are none: a quick walk through a madhouse enlightens one sufficiently about this&#39; - Nietzsche, the Anti-christ </span>

    <span style=\'color:red\'>&#39;Philosophy is a battle against the bewitchment of our intelligence by means of language&#39; - Wittgenstein</span>

    <span style=\'color:green\'>&#39;We do not know what we want and yet we are responsible for what we are - that is the fact&#39; - Sartre</span>

    &#39;There is nothing in me of a founder of a religion—religions are affairs of the rabble, I find it necessary to wash my hands after I have come into contact with religious people ... I want no &quot;believers&quot;; I think I am too malicious to believe in myself; I never speak to masses ... I have a terrible fear that one day I will be pronounced holy&#39; - Nietzsche, Ecce Homo
  2. #2
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    Read this speach from the Eastern Front, I think this should answer your question (i.e. we won&#39;t stop to "debate" our right to exist).


    04/24/04 10:21 PM

    Eastern Front

    Comrades&#33;

    The sudden emergence of Fascism and Racism in our city and in our communities is alarming. People have been threatened and some now live in fear knowing that these people exist in our communities. That is why we have formed the Eastern Front.

    Victory will certainly be ours

    This Eastern Front is named after the war front in which the Soviets fought against the Nazis in WW II, which lead to the victory of a just side, the side of the people against reaction and oppression, the victorious side of the Soviets, who stood for progress and justice; for Socialism.

    The name Eastern Front is also named so because it emerged as the result of an incident which took place in the East side of our city, Toronto, where two fascists confronted two activists well they were organizing in their community.

    We proudly bare the name Eastern Front remembering the victory of the Soviet Union, and knowing that we will carry that same victory over again here in Toronto. This is now our war, and this is our front. We hope that anywhere fascism emerges that Anti-Racists, whoever they are - whether they are Anarchist, Communist, Socialist, or even more "liberal", - will take up their duty and fight against it using whatever means necessary in their communities - that&#39;s what we hope - but this is our front, and we know that we have the responsibility to take up this battle.

    No one is going to do this for us&#33;

    No time for excuses

    There is no time for excuses. This is not a game; this is not a dinner party. We are not going to play nice, because the fascists are certainly not. This is not the sort of work that you can put half of an effort into. You can not step aside and say that you are unwilling to put yourself at risk. We must fight against these fascists - this will take much courage, strength, and dedication - and we shall not let them win: "They shall not pass&#33;"

    We will risk backlash and repercussions. As individuals we will be putting ourselves in danger, and possibly our friends and family as well. But if we do not take these risks the price will be even more costly. Allowing these fascists the chance to get organized is much more dangerous. We would be handing them a free shot by doing so. Right now we have the power and numbers to sweep the city clean of fascism once again. Let’s not make the mistake of allowing them to gain enough strength to be a significant foe. They will never gain victory, but we should not even allow them a chance to think such a thing possible&#33;

    Two fronts

    There is two ways to battle against fascism and racism, and we must use them both. One way is by using means available to us which are more-or-less non-violent, and some cases through the state which will allow us to repress fascism, and which will be more open to average people who are not as consciously a part of the class struggle and struggle against fascism and racism. We can appeal to the community and also be a more significant part of it. We can use awareness, workshops, education; to arm the masses with the ability to fight fascism. We can use legal means, such as the courts, the INTERNET, and public records; to seek out and make life miserable and fascist organizing an undesirable practice for the fascists. Through the courts we can bankrupt them. Through the INTERNET we can shut down their means of advertising and communications by appealing to their ISP. Through public records we can hunt them down and have them thrown out of their homes by their landlords, we can warn their neighbors about who they are. But this is not generally the type of work Eastern Front will undertake.

    Eastern Front’s way is to use our fists which we proudly raise so often. There is a reason why a raised first has such a symbolic meaning in our struggle: because so often we must use the fist to gain victory. We must use our fists to defend ourselves. As Communists we know non-violent political gain is always the most desirable. But as communists - as materialists who understand reality - we know that is not always possible. We also have to realize that fascists mainly only understand two things: violence and hatred. This is their language, and means of communication. They think with hatred and they express their thoughts through violent action.

    You can&#39;t talk to a fascist

    We can not feel sorrow for a fascist. We can not hesitate to use violence against a fascist, because they will do neither for us. Historically, fascists have attacked communists, anarchists, and other progressives first, in order to get them out of the way so that they can start their repression against Jews, non-whites, homosexuals, people with disabilities, and other people who they consider "inferior".

    We can not let this happen, and we will not let this happen, because we are not going to allow them the chance to get us out of the way.

    We must use force to put a stop to the rise of fascism. They are not going to stop and talk about whether or not genocide and oppression is right or wrong, and neither or we. They are full of hatred for other human beings, for no reason other than race, religion or skin color. They don&#39;t think that we deserve the right to live, they would like to see us all hanging from trees, stifling in gas chambers, or burning in ovens. We have to keep this in mind.... There is only one way to react to that sort of enemy - the same way that is natural to react to a ferocious monster or animal that doesn&#39;t think or show any compassion - against such an attacker we must use whatever means necessary to quell it&#33;

    And to do this we won&#39;t stop to debate with them or anyone else about the morals of smashing their fascist faces in. We will simply communicate to them in the only language they understand.

    This is not about freedom of speech

    Smashing fascism is not smashing free speech. Even the bourgeois state does not allow hate against a group of people based on race or religion... we have laws against hate in the Canadian state.

    We should not allow these ideas to be promoted in our communities, in any way; shape or form. Fascism is the horrible enemy of anything even close to democracy, and so anyone who believes in people&#39;s choice, rights and freedom should be a natural enemy of fascism.

    You do not have to be a radical - a communist, anarchist, or socialist - to be such an anti-fascist. Even a conservative with some form of morals should recognize the importance of shutting down fascism and racism. But the radicals are the ones who will certainly lead the way forward in this fight. They will also be the first to pick up the fowl stench of fascism when it arises.

    We must not commit political suicide&#33;

    Allowing “Democracy” and free speech to those who want to destroy it is political suicide. Letting the fascist run in elections and spread their ideas, is allowing them to grow. Allowing them to live, work, and organize in our communities is just allowing them other means. Why should we let people walk down the street who would rather kill us then allow us the same right? It is allowing them to scare people. It is letting them exercise the power of ideas. Ideas are worth more than weapons, so why should we allow or enemies to have ideas? This is not taking away freedom of speech; in fact it is the exact opposite&#33;

    We must be prepared to fight our battle against fascism. Remember how ferocious and how hard those Comrades in the Red Army fought. Compared to that our battle is challenge is almost insignificant. Let’s not dishonor the memory of the Soviet victory by refusing to take on this relatively small scale fight&#33;

    We shall beat them every time, everywhere&#33;
  3. #3
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    Indeed that was slightly helpful but it still didn&#39;t answer my main question, which is whether we should use pre-emptive violence against hardcore Nazis? I was aware before reading the article of the various means of fighting them through non-violence, I was just asking if this will ever be enough?

    The reason this puzzles me is because we are confronted with the paradox of Nazism, mainly that if we ever want to seriously rid ourselves of Nazism we must employ tactics the Nazis would have no problem using themselves...

    If we do then we run the risk of becoming like them (just with them being the target instead of Jews, blacks, homosexuals, etc) and if we don&#39;t then we must forever sit with the sword of Damocles hanging over us (and the threat of more Holocausts).
    <span style=\'color:blue\'>&#39;That faith makes blessed under certain circumstances, that blessedness does not make of a fixed idea a true idea, that faith moves no mountains but puts mountains where there are none: a quick walk through a madhouse enlightens one sufficiently about this&#39; - Nietzsche, the Anti-christ </span>

    <span style=\'color:red\'>&#39;Philosophy is a battle against the bewitchment of our intelligence by means of language&#39; - Wittgenstein</span>

    <span style=\'color:green\'>&#39;We do not know what we want and yet we are responsible for what we are - that is the fact&#39; - Sartre</span>

    &#39;There is nothing in me of a founder of a religion—religions are affairs of the rabble, I find it necessary to wash my hands after I have come into contact with religious people ... I want no &quot;believers&quot;; I think I am too malicious to believe in myself; I never speak to masses ... I have a terrible fear that one day I will be pronounced holy&#39; - Nietzsche, Ecce Homo
  4. #4
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    Originally posted by Trissy@May 27 2004, 01:02 AM
    I know we should seek to educate the future generations to be more understanding in a bid to stop Nazism but now I&#39;m wondering if it will ever be enough.
    The answer is no, it will not be enough. The problem with many young nazi&#39;s is they become so because they see in Hitler or in Nazism a solution to their problems. Society has a tendency to point its finger at groups of people for the worlds problems. At present the UK&#39;s problems are because of assylum seekers. Mugabe tried to blame the food shortage in Zimbabwe on gay people (I shit you not).

    For people who are angry and who do not necessarily have a critical mind following a hate ideology seems logical. If it is the assylum seekers who are causing my problems then if I support the Nazis they will get rid of them which in turn will solve my problems.

    To some extent and in time this will stop. It isn&#39;t logical, and societies problems are not because of assylum seekers, they are because of capitalism and the state. Unfortunatly however, Nazis tend not to listen. I have had many run ins with nazis, in sheffield as it happens, and rarely do they ever want to listen to reason. They would rather fight you.

    I&#39;m aware that we may be called on to fight them again some day but should we actively seek to destroy them with violence beforehand?
    In a revolutionary situation, many die hard nazis will attempt to subvert it, in which case we will have to fight them with brute force if necessary. If we are talking about presently, all we can do is attempt to challange their ideas at every given opporunity. Either through education, breaking up meetings, disrutping rallies or even fighting them.

    Being gay I realise it can be seen as hypocritical to seek to destroy them with the same vengeance that they persecuted us, and this is where the dilemma lies.
    But that&#39;s purely subjective, and the world exists outside your mind. Nazis have an objective. That is to take power and exterminate races which they deem to be inferior to them. Destroy free speech, imprison opposers, create a totalitarian society etc etc etc.

    The argument "well it makes me a hypocrite" is rediculous. By stating that opinion you are stating that it is acceptable to want to create that kind of world. It isn&#39;t acceptable&#33;

    Any action against nazis and fascists has to come from rank and file organisation and not by the state. We can not give bourgeois governments a mandate to outlaw political parties, this just creates a prescendent. We, being the people, must attack them at every opporunity, either on the internet, in the streets or on a council estate, using popoganda, education or violence to make sure that they never get to create such a society. A society which would see both of us killed.

    Are there any other options apart from eradicating them totally through education and/or violence?
    Appease them? Give them power? That is the only other options. These people are not sentimental. They are violent, disgusting human beings who want to create a society like that of Hitler. The national organiser of the BNP believes that poverty is genetic and that all working class people should be sterilized Can we appease that kind of opinion, if we do, when we aren&#39;t looking these people will slip in the back door and then we&#39;ll be fucked, well and truly&#33;&#33;&#33;
  5. #5
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    Society has a tendency to point its finger at groups of people for the worlds problems. At present the UK&#39;s problems are because of assylum seekers
    Indeed. I think it strongly relates to bad faith because if we don&#39;t want to accept that some of societies problems are our fault (because we also don&#39;t want to accept our freedom) then we need someone to shift the blame onto. That&#39;s where scape goats come into the equation...

    Mugabe tried to blame the food shortage in Zimbabwe on gay people (I shit you not).
    It doesn&#39;t surprise me. What does suprise me though is that he didn&#39;t blame it on Tony Blair parachuting secret service gay people into the country in an attempt to take power.

    But that&#39;s purely subjective, and the world exists outside your mind
    Oh I&#39;m aware of that. I have no sympathy for the Nazis as they have none for me. What I do care about is how I will feel having to bring myself down to their level in order to destory them. As I&#39;ve said it is a personal paradox which seems to have two.

    The argument "well it makes me a hypocrite" is rediculous. By stating that opinion you are stating that it is acceptable to want to create that kind of world. It isn&#39;t acceptable&#33;
    Please don&#39;t think the hypocracy bothers me because I&#39;m a secret Nazi sympathiser...as I stated above the problem is an entirely selfish one. In a non-revolutionary situation such as we have at the moment I was pondering what I&#39;d do if I ever met a hardcore nazi....whether I&#39;d be angry or scared enough to want to kill them and how I&#39;d feel in the aftermouth. I know what I&#39;d choose if I had the choice of whether to live or die...but I was wondering about what I&#39;d do if killing them weren&#39;t a necessity.

    Appease them? Give them power? That is the only other options
    Fine. I wasn&#39;t asking because I wanted to surrender or appease them but because I was wondering whether there were other ways to skin a Nazi.

    The national organiser of the BNP believes that poverty is genetic and that all working class people should be sterilized
    The party are also Holocaust deniers unsuprisingly.
    <span style=\'color:blue\'>&#39;That faith makes blessed under certain circumstances, that blessedness does not make of a fixed idea a true idea, that faith moves no mountains but puts mountains where there are none: a quick walk through a madhouse enlightens one sufficiently about this&#39; - Nietzsche, the Anti-christ </span>

    <span style=\'color:red\'>&#39;Philosophy is a battle against the bewitchment of our intelligence by means of language&#39; - Wittgenstein</span>

    <span style=\'color:green\'>&#39;We do not know what we want and yet we are responsible for what we are - that is the fact&#39; - Sartre</span>

    &#39;There is nothing in me of a founder of a religion—religions are affairs of the rabble, I find it necessary to wash my hands after I have come into contact with religious people ... I want no &quot;believers&quot;; I think I am too malicious to believe in myself; I never speak to masses ... I have a terrible fear that one day I will be pronounced holy&#39; - Nietzsche, Ecce Homo
  6. #6
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    Nazi&#33; :P
  7. #7
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    Just because I like men in lederhosen slapping each other doesn&#39;t mean I&#39;m a Nazi
    <span style=\'color:blue\'>&#39;That faith makes blessed under certain circumstances, that blessedness does not make of a fixed idea a true idea, that faith moves no mountains but puts mountains where there are none: a quick walk through a madhouse enlightens one sufficiently about this&#39; - Nietzsche, the Anti-christ </span>

    <span style=\'color:red\'>&#39;Philosophy is a battle against the bewitchment of our intelligence by means of language&#39; - Wittgenstein</span>

    <span style=\'color:green\'>&#39;We do not know what we want and yet we are responsible for what we are - that is the fact&#39; - Sartre</span>

    &#39;There is nothing in me of a founder of a religion—religions are affairs of the rabble, I find it necessary to wash my hands after I have come into contact with religious people ... I want no &quot;believers&quot;; I think I am too malicious to believe in myself; I never speak to masses ... I have a terrible fear that one day I will be pronounced holy&#39; - Nietzsche, Ecce Homo
  8. #8
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    What is to be done with Nazis. Very simply, they should be crushed by any means necessary. I have no time for appeasing Nazis nor do I believe in having debates with them, or giving them any form of platform for spreading their ideas. Any attempt made by Nazis to organise or speak, should be met with physical force, even if it means cracking skulls and breaking bones. The threat of Nazism is very real and very dangerous and should be viewed as such. If I had my way, I&#39;d have every Nazi lined up against a wall and shot, I shit you not. Unfortunately, not every one thinks this way.

    As for the liberal bullshit preaching about "freedom of speech, freedom of organisation etc also being freedoms which we should give our enemies", such freedoms are not rights, they are privileges, privileges for those that wish to defend them.

    In support of what Joe said, we should not seek for the bourgeois state to smash nazism, it must come from the grassroots, from the youth and from the workers. It is not in the interests of the bourgeoisie to completely smash nazism because in certain cirumstances, it NEEDS nazism to maintain its rule. As communists, we should be consciousness that it wasn&#39;t the Jews, it wasn&#39;t the Catholics, it wasn&#39;t the gypsies, it wasn&#39;t the homosexuals that Hitler came for first, it was the trade unionists, it was the socialists, it was the communists and it will be the same, a second time round if the workers&#39; and the unions do not take action.
    There were two “Reigns of Terror,” if we would but remember it and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passion, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon ten thousand persons, the other upon a hundred millions; but our shudders are all for the “horrors” of the minor Terror, the momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe, compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty, and heart-break? What is swift death by lightning compared with death by slow fire at the stake? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief Terror which we have all been so diligently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror... --- Mark Twain
  9. #9
    Pedro Alonso Lopez
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    Trissy have you registered over there yet? I have over a 1000 posts at The Phora and the thing you must all realise is that there are a lot of intelligent nazis out there today. Most of them are over 20 at least on that particular forum. To be honest most of them hate fascists and are just free thinkers.

    Abby Normal for example is 17 and posts on lots of forums for a laugh, she is not a fasicst, just somebody who likes to have a laugh in a weird way so ignore her if you want, she is not political active or anything.

    Anyway thats just my contribution, I don&#39;t believe nazis will ever unless the conditions get drastic will ever regain power. Fascism can be subtle however and working classes need to know that these people are duping them with promises of pure races, nationalism and other empty concepts.

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