May 1 counter Nazi march

[Kez]

i (as all other socialsits do) suggest the workers take over the means of production, where the worker gains a fair wage relative to labour put into the product.

[Cobra]

We would need to fight against the cops and the military. And most industrialized countrys are very urban, so there would not be much favorable terrain. Our chances of success would be minimal.

It’s easy to say “lets go take over the means of production” but as you may have realized it is almost impossible to do in any industrialized country. This is why no industrialized nation has ever had a successful socialist revolution. But if you know of a way, I would love to hear it.

Tell me, how would we take over the means of production?

[Kez]

through a revolution, and the overthrow of capitalist control

[Cobra]

Well, here's what I think about that.

A socialist revolution is very feasible in highly rural countries such as those found in Africa and South America. However, in industrialized countries, such as those found in Europe, I have to admit, a revolution would be much more difficult.

Lets suppose we start a socialist revolution in Europe.

We could take refuge in the mountains. But due to northern Europe’s high latitude, mountains are in the northern part of Europe are freezing. We would be too fuckin cold to carry out a revolution in northern Europe. Therefore, we are limited to the mountains in the more southern parts of Europe.

I think we should set up our base of operations in the Alps. Llamas would work best to carry our supplies. The temperatures never get too low below freezing, but we would still need to dress warmly. The Alps have many forested areas that provide cover from enemy aircraft flying overhead. Also, the terrain would be much too rugged for enemy vehicles. This rugged terrain would definitely give us an advantage over the enemy. Just so you have an idea of the terrain, here are a few pictures:








Farmers in Austria sympathetic to our cause could provide us with food. First, I think we should take control of the factories in Innsbruck. Then we could work our way north to Munich. Unfortunately, taking control of Munich would be very difficult.

I have no clue how we could ever liberate Munich.

Do any of you have some ideas?

[Kez]

oh dear me...

[Louis Pio]

Cobra you seem to have a somewhat strange idea of what a revolution is.
It don't need to be a guerilla war. We don't make a revolution by a little group of people going into the woods. That will indeed get us killed!
Instead we need to reach people by taking a point of depature in their own life. Wages, living conditions etc. If all socialists did as you and talked down to people, telling them they are exploiting others and that they should form their own little communes were they could starve (because capitalism would still exist) we will get nowere!
And would indeed be reduced to a small group of odd utopians.

[Monty Cantsin]

For Cobra!

[Cobra]

Fuck. I’m going about this all wrong.

This is like a game of chess where if I’m not thinking 5 moves ahead of my opponent then he will defeat me.
I really hate that analogy. But it’s the closest thing that I can compare it to, as well as being the best thing I can come up with at the moment.

I’m going to think about this some more. I’ve overlooked some things. Hell, I’ve overlooked almost everything. In my next reply I will try to address those things.

[Kez]

well, chess game, but were not against u! we can help, in the same way u can help us.

[Cobra]

As I said before, we need to take action. I give my acknowledgment to our comrades who are going to protests, such as that one in Berlin. But I don’t think protesting alone will be enough.

I have decided against trying to come up with any more ideas anytime soon. I’ve already given a couple bad suggestions of what else we could do so I’ve decided that until I do a lot of research I’m not going to suggest anything else.

Teis: we need to reach people by taking a point of depature in their own life. Wages, living conditions etc.

I’m guessing you mean that we need to educate other workers about the fallacies of capitalism and explain to them how their lives would be better under socialism (Correct me if I'm wrong).

It’s been 100 years after Marx’s death, yet many workers still reject socialism. Should we work harder (as a group) to educate? Or do we need to start using more effective methods to persuade them? And in addition educating other workers, what else should we do (other than going to protests)?

[Louis Pio]

I’m guessing you mean that we need to educate other workers about the fallacies of capitalism and explain to them how their lives would be better under socialism (Correct me if I'm wrong).

Correct. Also in my oppinion we should always put forward demands in the labour movement. Higher minimum wage and so on, always explaining how these things can't be kept under capitalism.

It’s been 100 years after Marx’s death, yet many workers still reject socialism. Should we work harder (as a group) to educate? Or do we need to start using more effective methods to persuade them? And in addition educating other workers, what else should we do (other than going to protests)?

If we look at history there has always been periods of low activity. What we see now is that people are moving once more. In these periods it is easier to reach people. Therefore we of course need to educate ourselves and recrute more people, who will then in turn be educated. The thing is we need to be a bit patient. A revolution don't happen overnight, but when we see social exploisions a correct policy can quickly lead to it. The problem is that our forces are still weak and that the ideas have been tainted by both reformists but also by stalinism. Still im an optimist

[Dyst]

Cobra wasn't 100% off though. The revolution needs to start somewhere, if the idea isn't a revolution which automatically spreads through the capitalist media (would be hard to set in action.) The southern europe would not be a correct position, strategicly. That is the bascily the base of the second biggest capitalist central in the world, and their mountains would be easy to infiltrate by planes.

Northern europe would be, after my opinion a better choise. The cold climate and rough terrain has proven many times to be good for the people who live there and are used to the climate in everyday life. If the base is in the mountains the capitalist government might even have to recieve military resources from other nations, and then the climate would definately be to our assistance.

However, I agree with Teis stating that we need to educate the people in order to create a revolution. Especially the people in the nearby villages and cities from where the revolution should start is this important.

[SgtPepper369]

Originally posted by Cobra@May 11 2004, 09:17 PM
If we want to actually change anything we need to take action. Boycotting goods made through exploitation will loosen corporation’s chokehold on the world. Once they become weakened, it will become easier for us to take control.

If you don’t like my suggestion, then what do you suggest we do?

Maybe us poor people living in capitalism and can't afford to DIE can advocate fairly traded, sweat free goods, which tend to cost more money. To tell you the truth, I do what I can to help workers in other countries, while allowing myself to survive. (ie: benifit concerts, handing out flyers, speaking out in public, even throgh my Church yes church, we only use fairly traded coffe. Not all christians are careless assholes.)