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Have you been stalking me?
First of all (and I know that it's not logical to begin with the end of your post, but I'm going from most outrageous to least today), you might want to take some classes as how to "encourage" people. You have called me a champagne revolutionary. The first trick in encouraging people to join you is not insulting them, especially not insulting them blindly. What I do not know is if you consider me "oppressed by the system" or "genuinely concerned about the concerns of the people". But no matter what, when you insult one person blindly it gives you less credibility with the whole board and when you lump someone into this category there is no way in hell that they will ever take you seriously enough to let you do any encouraging.
Second of all, as I recall Che fought and was willing to give his life to free an island of farmers so that they could live under communism. As I have said before (but you've ignored it, so I'll say it again), he let super-hippie Jerry Rubin interview him and the hippies were the first generation to idolize him.
What do beer and pot have to do with anything? It's not as if Che was a man without his vices. What do you mean by "incessantly fooling around"?
Now on to Kamo: You told me and my supposedly champagne-loving comrades to "WAKE UP AND DO SOMETHING! GET OFF YOUR FAT ASS AND UR COMFORTABLE LIVING, AND SHIFT" So first of all, how fat is your ass?
Seriously, though, as I recall you still lived at home, but I'm not certain. Now, I will respond to your post 100%.
1) Have I woken up and done something? I wake up at 5:30 in the morning to go to various inner-city public schools to teach drama to middle schoolers, for which I am paid absolutely nothing. Have I done something? In the ultra-political sense, I have volunteered for the ACLU, NAACP and various other organizations. I'm a member of lots of organizations and I've even put up some of those posters that CommieBastard seems to think are quite lovely. In the basic doing-something-for-the-poor sense, I have volunteered at homeless shelters and soup kitchens and I'm going to become a teacher in public schools, even though I could get a much higher-paying job if I wanted to.
2) I weigh 125 pounds. My boyfriend says my ass isn't fat, and (for once) I believe him.
3) Am I living comfortably? I'm living in Southwest DC, which should pretty much answer your question right off the bat. I lived on a commune for most of my childhood (where, with all apologies to CheG, there was no champagne) and then I moved here with my family. Beside the fact that it is almost impossible to live with my family and live comfortably, our apartment was also quite small. Going from a farm/workshop in Vermont to DC is uncomfortable enough as it is. Then I bummed around the country for a year, which is fun but uncomfortable, then I lived in a dorm, now I share a shitty small apartment with four other people. Our furniture is shitty too, just for the record. I am comfortable in the psychological sense because I'm happy that I'm living with friends and I feel safe here. I'm well-adjusted but I'm not exactly sitting in a $2,000 chair right now.
4) I'm not sure what you meant by "shift," but that would no doubt be the most important part of that eloquent statement of yours. CheG has called me a champagne revolutionary more times than I can count, but I seem to meet all of your qualifications for being a revolutionary of the non-champagne variety. Tell me what "shift" means and I'll respond as soon as I see it.
(Edited by I Will Deny You at 11:03 pm on Jan. 25, 2002)
\"He\'s an idiot. But he\'s our idiot.\"
Will you ever stop it with the "holier than thou" attitude?
You speak as if you were Che Guevara himself. Now I'm also curious...what are the great things you do each day? In wich way do you help the socialist cause more than the other board members? Except making little plans to overthrow the government and fight the US-Army.
and stop attacking people for their drinking, drug or sexual habits.
[i]"The State is a condition, a certain relationship between human beings, a mode of human behavior; we destroy it by contracting other relationships, by behaving differently."[/
We haven't made any of those types of plans actually. On a day to day basis, or more accurately, on the weekends(too much homework during the week)I go out and I get working people, or any people for that matter, pissed at their employers and capitalists in general, usually through talking to them. The movement can go anywhere once employees are pissed off enough at their employers.
Che was against drinking, and I imagine against drug use as well because it fucks you up just as badly. I'm not against it for everyone, I'm just saying it's not a good idea for revolutionaries. Wait, oops, the ones who are doing it aren't doing much towards the people's liberation anyway, so it really doesn't matter that much, at least from a liberation struggle point of view. I don't remember attacking anyone's sexual habits.
(Edited by CheGuevara at 1:22 am on Jan. 26, 2002)
I'm going to have to agree with Che-G on this one. I really can't say illegal substances and alchohol are exactly the choice of a revolutionaries everywhere. They do impair your thoughts and other such wonderful things that I'm sure a revolutionary really doesn't need. Revolutionists must be able to think clearly and set a good example for their followers. These substances can reduce one's ability to work as well and this entire movement is based on the proletariot.
Furthermore these drugs are the cause of death and destruction in southern American nations. An example is Columbia in which the U$ armed forces is dropping weed killer (no joke) over coacoa fields in an attempt to kill off the drug trade but instead they are dropping the chemicals on villages and crops that the people are harvesting. The results are absolutely horrendous and despite photographs, complaints, etc. the armed forces still denies that these medical issues are the result of their chemicals and anti-drug campaign. So next time you do smoke something remember the people we're fighting for had to pay for it. We might as well just call ourselves capitalists.
So if you're going to smoke something make it a Cuban. They help Cuba's economy and are easier to get then drugs. Here's a website to get them mailed to your home in the U$ or anywhere else globally: www.cubancigars.com
Remember what Che would want.
-Dread
--In re-reading this paragraph I realize I sound like a communist D. A. R. E. teacher. Oh well.--
<span style=\'color:gray\'>"The future is unwritten."</span>
The thought of some kid who usually has too much homework going around and thinking he's educating people is one that makes me laugh. Nothing you've said on this board is anything new, so I imagine you're not bringing much insight to the streets of New Jersey. Any "worker" who listens to you is probably just trying to get you the fuck away. Knowing the holier than thou attitude you've copped on this board, I think that the workers you talk to will be, if anything, insulted. Or laughing on the inside at you and your friends who think they're so smart.
You have said that I drink champagne. Have I had champange at a birthday party/New Year's Eve or two? Yes. It's no crime to be invited to parties, my friend. I have not once said that I get drunk. I'm not drunk now. I just got back from a night of dinner, a movie, and sitting around with a friend. As a matter of fact I get drunk very rarely, and I've never talked about getting drunk on these boards. I said that Adam drank all the beer with his friends and never wrote it down on the grocery list, and you can take that up with him if you really want to.
I smoked pot when I was eleven, and now I get high once every 4-6 months, approximately. So sue me. You sound like one of those straightedge kids. Do you also hate me because I'm not a virgin, or because I eat meat?
How are you doing much more "towards the people's liberation" than I am? A few kids talking to workers (when they don't have too much homework) is not going to start a revolution. You have not, after days of baiting me, proven that you've done more for "the people" or "the workers" than I have. For all your accusations of coffee-drinking and participation in "champagne" culture, you haven't shown how you've helped more than I have.
Somewhere, a bunch of workers are laughing at a smug kid who walked up to them randomly and told them what he thought was new information.
\"He\'s an idiot. But he\'s our idiot.\"
Yes, the workers want to escape me so much they come to meetings during their free time.
Champagne revolutionary is an expression, and normally is not thought of literally.
(Edited by CheGuevara at 8:16 am on Jan. 26, 2002)
Didn't expect this post to turn to flaming.. but um.. while we're here...
I Will Deny You, you condemn him for belittling your efforts towards the revolution or whatnot, yet you turn around and do the same exact thing to him...
We're the minority as is, why thin our ranks even more? We're all here for our reasons, but the main shared one, is that we want change. You probably try to change things to the best of your ability, as I'm sure CheG does, and as I'm sure everyone else on this board (excluding capitalists) does.
I don't know much about Che (the real one) yet, or communism so I can't whip out some impressive quotes to back this all up.. but it seems common sense, that those fighting for the same goal, shouldn't be fighting eachother in the process.
Bah.. was gonna say more but I'm tired :
You can\'t fool all the people all of the time, but if you fool em right once, then the rest will fall behind..-Dead Prez
I have made real efforts, he has taken forever to give the slightest amount of proof that he's even left his living room. He lumped me in a category, I did not.
CheG - Why am I a champagne revolutionary? Tell me. I backed myself up from Kamo's accusations, but you haven't told me why I'm a champagne revolutionary.
\"He\'s an idiot. But he\'s our idiot.\"
I will deny, you are not only insulting the efforts of a fellow comrade but you are also insultng them because they are a youth. If anything you should clearly know that the youth are the inheritors of this nation and planet.
Furthermore, I am in fact straight edge when it comes to drugs and drinking. I think I've had maybe a sip of bear and I've never ever smoked an illegal substance nor cigarettes which are probobly worse and I never plan to. Cigars, despite when many people think, are much healthier then cigarettes or even illegal substances.
Anyway, the point of this is that while you are doing a fantastic job of supporting the revolution we cannot ignore or let other's effort go without dually noticing and praising no matter how small or how large the effort maybe.
-Dread
<span style=\'color:gray\'>"The future is unwritten."</span>
You are a champagne revolutionary because you beat your chest about how revolutionary you are because you involved in such organizations as the ACLU and Greenpeace, which are involved in piecemeal efforts to control, or "reform", the capitalist system, instead of replacing it.
Isn't every, and any, effort welcome, and needed?
Message boards are based on what someone claims he or she has done, or has typed.. it's up to the reader to accept it as truth or fiction.. You might have have done everything you claimed to have done, just as much as he might have done all that he has claimed to have done.
Regardless, what's the point in arguing? "He started it" doesn't seem a mature, or appropriate response...
I don't wanna preach or anything.. but damn, just chill.
Why shoot eachother, when we can shoot some crooked suits? Riddle me that :P
You can\'t fool all the people all of the time, but if you fool em right once, then the rest will fall behind..-Dead Prez
I'd agree with you, but certain champagne revolutionaries are trying to push our rifles down when we take aim at the crooked suits.
Listen, firstly dont call any of us oafs, when we are TRYING to do something. Unlike yourself who will talk to the deaf and believe yopu are great.
Why do you call the YFRC pompous? because it actually tries to do something? in a united fashion?
The stickers are there to recruit more members, and for one, u cannot join, as your views are one of a counter-revolution. You claim thinking is some how the real revolution? ok, you keep talking to bush, and he will stop his war yeah? NO. you'll get to the age of 30, and realise you STILL havnt done anything to help the cause.
I have had enough of people on here asnd in real life who claim to be left, yet would rather give grief to the SU, than shift there fat asses.
If the YFRC is so uselss as you claim, then why have we put news in, why have we put events calender in, why have we put petitions up against the cuban embargo?
in one newsletter, it will do more good than all you pacifists who sit here have EVER done.
I dont condone violence, but i know it will have to be used, yet SOME people here claim that it is the biggest evil to do, ad as Paris said, it is letting the capitalists trample all over us and piss all over us, and its the fault of people such as cb.
comrade kamo
DOWN WITHT THE COUNTER-REVOLUTIONARIES
<span style=\'color:red\'>www.marxist.com Committee for a Marxist International</span>
<span style=\'color:red\'>Proleteriat of the world unite! We have nothing to lose but our chains!</span>
<span style=\'color:red\'>HandsOffVenezuela in solidarity with the Venezuelan workers and the Venezuelan Revolution</span>
(Edited by CommieBastard at 4:58 pm on Jan. 26, 2002)
no, i dont talk to the deaf, and i dont think i am great. i spend a lot of time talking to people, informing them, and a lot of people i know ahev shifted their opinions to the left of where they were, and why? not because i am a good orator, but because i presented them with facts they did not previously have. it is a simple thing, but one which can be damn difficult, and very time consuming. But you aren't interested in doing this. Without an informed people, there is no basis for revolution.
i call it pompous because all it does is put stickers up, and then when i say i wont give i my address to send me stickers, apparently, that and that solely makes me a chamnpagne revolutionary. interesting.
my views are of counter revolution? thats why i do more for the revolution with my little finger than you do with your whole body?
thinking IS the real revolution, because the revolution is about making people think, so that they are empowered to take action. Action without thought is pointless. Oh, and guess which ideology is based upon principles of action without thought. Could it possibly be, FASCISM? why yes, it is!
newsletters, petitions, non-violent action, all the staple of a pacifists means of change, and you say you are doing these things, and that makes you better than pacifists? truly confusing... as for the whole cuban trade embargo petition, you would do better just signing the actual petition for that, instead of starting your own. I hope you realise, by the way, that those actions are ones that i actually do? and you sit there saying i do nothing, for doing exactly what you do? interesting..
as for your so called events, i found it rather strange that there is no info about them, and how when i asked you about one, you didnt even know about it, or any of it's details... i was quite interestd in it too, but you simply dont seem to be able to do it.. why? because my assertion that the YFRC is useless is true. All you achieve is putting up stickers. I am not saying that you will never achieve a degree of usefulness, but it's gonna need a lt of working on, and you would do well to listen to criticisms laid at it's door by me and others, and actually correcting the problems.
so what you're saying in that is you have exactly the same views about violence as me? and then accuse me of being the reason why the revolution is failing? interesting. If people like you stopped getting hung up on blame, and decided to think before you acted, and also decided to help others think before trying to get them to act, we might be a lot further on. Now, realise, however, that i am not blaming you here, as we all make mistakes, and i am sure in the future you will find yourself capable of listening to other people's points of view without mindlessly insulting them, and making rash assumptions about their lives.
oh ffs, i cant seem to get this post to work properly... oh well :/
I am not insulting his efforts. He came in here and called me a champagne revolutionary and insulted me without knowing me or what I have done. He assumed, without reason, that his efforts were more important that mine. I have pointed out that I am not a champange revolutionary and that I've done quite a bit. I was responding to his post.
As for the youth angle, first of all, I'm no grandma. I'm still in school, you know. I did not insult him because it seems as if he is younger than I am (although I've never seen a post where he revealed his age, so I don't know for sure). I was definitely politically involved in middle school and high school (whatever age CheG is at). I still have some "Peace in Rwanda" stickers in storage at my parents' place.
The thing is, everyone in this "revolution" as many of you have taken to calling it, is different. So each person's ideal role in the revolution, where they could make the biggest difference and do the most good, is different. It does, in fact, insult many adults when kids come up to them. The older people who are involved in our revolution, I'd say mid-30's to early 50's, would be the best ones to approach workers and try to get them to join our fight. Anything that CheG does (that does not involve explosives or bullets) would be good, but he could be doing a lot more good if he were doing something different. I would not approach workers because I'm pretty young (even though I'm apparently not a youth myself anymore). All I'm saying is, know your place.
And in response to my favorite comrade in these parts, CheG, it will be a long fucking time before we replace the capitalist system. (Even with your extensive, expert knowledge of weaknesses of the most powerful military in the history of the world.) I don't think the revolution will come during our lifetime. Do you read The Nation? There's an article in there about welfare reform. With the revolution so far away, I say why not try to help the poor people until we can overthrow the people who are oppressing them? If a revolution did come, I would participate. But I'm being realistic. I won't see a revolution, perhaps my grandchildren will. My peaceful efforts are basically "in the meantime" stuff. People are starving and will be starving in the 100+ years until the revolution comes. I want to help them! I want them to have equal rights. My ancestors got equal rights through peaceful protest. If you go back more than 150 years in my family tree, a "revolution" that overthrew the Confederate States of America was fought by powerful men because they were influenced by abolitionist writers, etc. Most of these writers, by the way, were women. I'm sorry, but I just can't look at all of the movements that get credit for giving me the rights that I have, see that all of them were peaceful, and then advocate a violent revolution that would never work while I'm alive.
Am I trying to push down your rifles? Violence in America by leftists has never worked under the conditions that we're in today. On the contrary, it gives all leftists a bad name and really does set us back. So if pushing down your rifles means aid to the peaceful progressives because your rifles will discredit them, then I'll push down your rifles. The Weather Underground was an embarrassment, the Mobe is an example of peaceful means to end unjust wars. The Black Panthers made all civil rights workers and black people look bad, the SCLC is the reason I'm allowed to attend school with my white friends. You may blame me for trying to push down your rifles, but I blame you for using tactics that slowed down the movements that freed my ancestors.
Kamo, you replied to CommieBastard's post but not mine. I truly would like a response, and a re-evaluation of whether I'm a "champagne revolutionary" according to your standards. Thanks, comrade.
And oh, Dread, that's great if you've never used drugs or alcohol, but the straightedge kids I don't like are the ones who go around preaching and telling me that I'm going to die at age 30 because I've had sex with my boyfriend or done dumb shit in middle school. We all know the ones. You seem fine to me, though.
\"He\'s an idiot. But he\'s our idiot.\"
Dont take offense to this...
You would rather write a cute lil letter, with: Sincerly, <insert name here>, at the bottom, then pick up a gun and blast the shit out of some goon that was oppressing your people, family, and/or friends?
I'm not saying kick down the doors of the Pentagon and blast away (although that would be QUITE fun), but seriously.. what has ever gotten done by writing letters?
Do people suddenly get better, after receiving a GET WELL card? Didn't think so.
If George 'Dubya' can even read, I'm sure he'd just pass the letter on to one of his suits, whom would quickly burn the thing.
The time for talk is over, who's gonna listen to us anyway? Letter reads: "Please change Bill <insert number/name>", into the furnace it goes. Nothing is going change unless the people force it to change, the Government of the U$A is just as content and brainwashed, as most of it's people are. MONEY MONEY MONEY.
It's sad that people still think letters and words can change things.. if that was the case, wouldn't the whole world be perfect by now? The voice of the few is drowned out by the senseless babble of others, and religous rhetoric which has never done anyone, any good.
The revolution will come when you MAKE IT. Your grandchildren might live to see it? Not if I say they don't, I'm gonna fight when the time comes, and I will make it a point that that time comes before my death. For the future of my children, and maybe grandchildren, I'm gonna change this shitty system.
I'm sorry 'comrade', but if you tried to push my rifle down cuz -YOU- didn't think it was the time for the revolution, and you still wanted to write a few more letters... then I'm sorry, but I'd have to turn that rifle on you.
We gotta act, not re-act. How many more bombs is the U$ gonna have to drop, before it's citizens realize that the government is made of money hungry, simple minded jackasses that will do anything to keep their pretty suits nice and clean, and oppress any free minded individuals, including those far outside it's borders?
You can\'t fool all the people all of the time, but if you fool em right once, then the rest will fall behind..-Dead Prez
but seriously.. what has ever gotten done by writing letters?
Why don't you ask the people at Amnesty?
http://www.amnesty.org/
In Solidarity,
RC
I didn't check the site out thouroughly, but what I got from the couple pages I did was: Blah Blah blah, Amnesty International writes a letter to so and so, blah blah.
Results? Have they changed anything? Post a direct link please, I hate browsing through care-bear sites.
PS. I know its gonna take all kinds of people to change things, the Writers, AND the Fighters... I think it's obvious which of the two I am.
You can\'t fool all the people all of the time, but if you fool em right once, then the rest will fall behind..-Dead Prez
The kind that sits home and complains that everyone should be out shooting people while other people work their asses off?
In Solidarity,
RC
