Thread: Catalan Independence Movement

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  1. #1
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    Default Catalan Independence Movement

    I didn't see a thread on this and I figured it was worth discussing.

    The secessionist movement exposes the nature of the Spanish state through the latter's brutal crackdown on referendum participants and the move to suspend local Catalan government.

    Further, an independent Catalonia would not be part of the European Union.

    It's by no means inherently "a good thing", but it's worth keeping an eye on.

    Thoughts?
    "I'm a pessimist because of intelligence, but an optimist because of will." - Antonio Gramsci

    "If he did advocate revolutionary change, such advocacy could not, of course, receive constitutional protection, since it would be by definition anti-constitutional."
    - J.A. MacGuigan in Roach v. Canada, 1994
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  3. #2
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    It is in a sense just another example of petty nationalism but it has exposed some of the true nature of the liberal state. Anyway, anarchists stormed the Spanish embassy in Greece:

    https://www.rt.com/news/406353-spain...ns-anarchists/

    Modern democracy is nothing but the freedom to preach whatever is to the advantage of the bourgeoisie - Lenin

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  5. #3
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    I don't know, Catalan is a separate language but its spoken by less than 10 million people. The catalan independence movement has been going on for awhile they've consistently voted in favor of independence with better turnout than most US presidential elections. We have to go back to francoist Spain to find the first support for an independent democratic Catalonia. However Catalonia is not some secluded mountain kingdom. Feudal kingdoms in this region slaughtered countless thousands. Aragon used to be a bloodthirsty kingdom that was at near constant war with muslims. They exterminated every non-catholic from the peninsula. Barcelona was at the gates of the muslim empire so to speak and christian kingdoms funded and created Catalonia to fight and exterminate Muslims in the Iberian peninsula .

    The reasons they're now giving today also aren't very convincing they are not saying "we are the victims of human rights abuses, rampant poverty, and neglect by the state". Just the opposite, they are claiming Catalonia is the wealthiest region in Spain and does not "need" the rest of Spain. It is the "victim" because it pays too much in taxes to pay for the rest of Spains welfare. That they would all be rich as kings if they didn't have to pay for those bums in madrid's welfare checks. Then they're saying by separating from Spain, they will be rich and the rest of Spain can go to hell for all they care.

    There is also question of "why just them"? Valencia, Aragon, Basque, Grenada etc all have just as much of right and reason to leave, could they all just decide to break away?
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  7. #4
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    So they're a Spanish version of Atlas Shrugged? Interesting. The less we see of that, the better.
    It would obviously be better for people to understand how regional wealth inequality is rooted in capitalism just as much as international inequality.

    However justified the movement is, or is not, the Spanish state's response is just likely to exacerbate separatist sentiment.
    "I'm a pessimist because of intelligence, but an optimist because of will." - Antonio Gramsci

    "If he did advocate revolutionary change, such advocacy could not, of course, receive constitutional protection, since it would be by definition anti-constitutional."
    - J.A. MacGuigan in Roach v. Canada, 1994
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    I don't know, Catalan is a separate language but its spoken by less than 10 million people. The catalan independence movement has been going on for awhile they've consistently voted in favor of independence with better turnout than most US presidential elections. We have to go back to francoist Spain to find the first support for an independent democratic Catalonia. However Catalonia is not some secluded mountain kingdom. Feudal kingdoms in this region slaughtered countless thousands. Aragon used to be a bloodthirsty kingdom that was at near constant war with muslims. They exterminated every non-catholic from the peninsula. Barcelona was at the gates of the muslim empire so to speak and christian kingdoms funded and created Catalonia to fight and exterminate Muslims in the Iberian peninsula .
    I'm not grasping the relevancy. The history of class society is drenched in the blood of the innocent. And?

    There is also question of "why just them"? Valencia, Aragon, Basque, Grenada etc all have just as much of right and reason to leave, could they all just decide to break away?
    Yes! Destroying the political boundaries of the Spanish state would be a massive blow to the European Union and the German imperialists. That would be excellent. Not to mention the Spanish bourgeoisie and their shitty little king.

    Any Spanish/Catalan board members have an opinion?
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    Here's what the PCPE is putting out;
    What we are seeing since the beginning of the day, that is to say, a new violent intervention of the Spanish State in Catalonia, is nothing more than the expression of a deep crisis of Spanish State, which affects the ruling class in power and its mechanisms of legitimacy to its very foundations.
    In addition, also the intervention of Civil Guard and National Police is a new violation by the State of what is established in the Statute of Autonomy.
    The PCPE calls the people of Catalonia to resist united against this new aggression of the despotic government of Mariano Rajoy, making the broad and combative mass movement the tool that can defeat the mechanisms of violence of the bourgeois state.
    The PCPE also appeals to the working class of the whole state, and to the popular sectors, to be on the side of the working class and the people of Catalonia, uniting all forces to defeat the bourgeois state in crisis and its violent policies and antidemocratic. It is necessary to make the slogan of the resignation of the Government of Mariano Rajoy and of the defense of the right of self-determination the central axis of a new stage of labor and popular mobilizations to be developed immediately in a coordinated way.
    http://www.pcpe.es/index.php/compone...os-de-cataluna

    And here is the PCE:

    The Communist Party of Spain (PCE) supports the celebration of the Assembly of Institutional Representatives to be held tomorrow Sunday in Zaragoza, in defense of a democratic and agreed departure from the current situation in Catalonia that contemplates the right of the Catalan people to determine its future, and to denounce the dictatorial behavior of the PP Government, which is leading to a total degradation of democracy and coexistence, the de facto intervention of the Government of Catalonia, in practice means taking us to a situation of exception that suppresses Catalonia's self-government and civic liberties.


    Those who from the Franco regime equate the struggle for democratic and social rights, with the struggle for the national rights of the different peoples of the State, we deny that the PP wants to return us to the times of Spain, One, Big and Free.


    At the same time, we support the Zaragoza Assembly, because we consider that it is the time of the meeting, the negotiation and the search for a negotiated solution to the situation created in Catalonia, in the terms in which we have raised in other statements placing the responsibilities of different levels that have had both the State Government and the Generalitat.


    We endorse the declaration that is being debated in this Assembly of Zaragoza, in which various members of the Communist Party of Spain will participate, noting that among others and other institutional positions will attend, Isabel Salud, Institutional Officer of the Federal Government, Eva Solla S General of the Communist Party of Galicia-PCG, Jon Hernandez. S. General of the Communist Party of Euskadi-EPK.


    In the same sense, the PCE will continue to fight to avoid the authoritarian, antisocial and centralizing exit that the government of Rajoy intends to impose. The PCE defends an exit for the current crisis of social transformation and recognition of the national rights of the different Peoples of the State.

    http://www.pce.es/secretarias/secgeneral/pl.php?id=6177

    Here is the CNT:

    The events that are taking place these days are so momentous for the working class that CNT considers it necessary to issue a communiqué stating its position. It seems obvious to us that the impassion in which the Catalan sovereignty question is installed, after the Catalan governor has suspended the declaration of independence, is the beginning of a turbulent period, mainly as a result of the scourge of different demands. pressure groups of the 78 regime that seek the Spanish Government to apply without delay the sadly famous article 155.
    Of course, the fulfillment of these threats would be lethal for the rights and freedoms of a Catalan population, and especially for the workers, on whose backs would be charged, as in any capitalist society, government impositions. But even more terrible would be that all this occurred in a context in which the solidarity of workers and workers throughout the state was fractured. Hence CNT wants to alert about the pernicious of the narrative of the Catalan political crisis that are massively diffusing the media, from the fanatic "for them" to the fascist boycott of the Valencian Dada.
    In accordance with what he had already emphasized, CNT strongly supports the right to decide, in the hope that it will extend to the rest of the territories and areas of life, against any kind of blackmail, intimidation or apocalyptic oppose As the classic said, "we are not afraid of ruins because we carry a new world in our hearts ..." and productive classes are on our side.
    For this reason, CNT is still waiting, watching the interests of workers and workers are not affected by the news.
    http://www.cnt.es/noticias/cnt-ante-...n-en-catalunya

    Via Google Translate, caveats apply.
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    I'm not grasping the relevancy. The history of class society is drenched in the blood of the innocent. And?
    compared to the iroquois, or even the Irish, we might as well be talking about forming an independent Rome. You know like "the poor romans what did they ever do to anybody" lol


    Yes! Destroying the political boundaries of the Spanish state would be a massive blow to the European Union and the German imperialists. That would be excellent. Not to mention the Spanish bourgeoisie and their shitty little king.
    I'd love to see a dethrone the king or we will secede threat, but in fact Im more worried they will install their own. What right do the people living there today have to the land? it was all the caliphate at one point maybe we should support a return to muslim rule? That's when Spain was the most prosperous region in all of europe. Make Spain great again. Return it to the umayyad!

    who says they wont be joining the EU anyway?

    Any Spanish/Catalan board members have an opinion?
    I think there is but they dont speak english
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    who says they wont be joining the EU anyway?
    Polls show that only 35% of Spaniards "on the left of the ideological spectrum" favor the EU, and Catalonia is considered the most leftwing region of Spain.

    But Europe-wide, the Brexit was a tectonic shift. I wouldn't say that the EU is running on fumes per se but it is definitely up against the ropes. If Catalonia secedes from EU/Spain (or Greece gets out), things will snowball unstoppably -- think 1989. My crystal ball says so anyways.

    Brexit-EU-Favorability-WEB-version.png

    Source: http://www.pewglobal.org/2016/06/07/...-beyond-brexit
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    Polls show that only 35% of Spaniards "on the left of the ideological spectrum" favor the EU, and Catalonia is considered the most leftwing region of Spain.

    But Europe-wide, the Brexit was a tectonic shift. I wouldn't say that the EU is running on fumes per se but it is definitely up against the ropes. If Catalonia secedes from EU/Spain (or Greece gets out), things will snowball unstoppably -- think 1989. My crystal ball says so anyways.

    Brexit-EU-Favorability-WEB-version.png

    Source: http://www.pewglobal.org/2016/06/07/...-beyond-brexit
    Until they read the bill for the billions of dollar they'll lose by not joining them. Imagine if the EU took a hostile attitude toward Catalonia and sanctioned them like they do in North Korea. There's not alot of farmland in Barcelona how long do you think it would be before everyone starved to death?

    So what happens after the EU collapses?
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    The EU won't sanction Catalonia but they'll do everything in their power to punish independence movements within their borders - they'll do everything they can to prevent any disruption of business as usual. Part of the scare tactics arranged against Scottish independence was the threat of no longer being in the EU and, obviously, in response to Brexit the EU have got their claws out. Only semi-recently the EU's scare tactics in Greece essentially prevented Syriza from enacted the programme they had been elected to carry out. It's essentially in the EU's interests to maintain normal business and political channels.
    Modern democracy is nothing but the freedom to preach whatever is to the advantage of the bourgeoisie - Lenin

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    The EU won't sanction Catalonia but they'll do everything in their power to punish independence movements within their borders - they'll do everything they can to prevent any disruption of business as usual. Part of the scare tactics arranged against Scottish independence was the threat of no longer being in the EU and, obviously, in response to Brexit the EU have got their claws out. Only semi-recently the EU's scare tactics in Greece essentially prevented Syriza from enacted the programme they had been elected to carry out. It's essentially in the EU's interests to maintain normal business and political channels.
    Syriza is a good example. Everyone was practically calling varoufakis the new lenin.
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    Syriza is a good example. Everyone was practically calling varoufakis the new lenin.
    Not quite everyone. The KKE for example, warned of a Syriza sell-out. The majority of posters on RevLeft at the time were calling them dogmatic sectarians for their stance. Although quite frankly I don't think even the KKE expected the balloon to pop as quickly and pathetically as it did.

    Probably it is not so simple as craven political leadership though. What are the additional reasons why the UK pulled out of EU and Greece did not or cannot (yet)?
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    Not quite everyone. The KKE for example, warned of a Syriza sell-out. The majority of posters on RevLeft at the time were calling them dogmatic sectarians for their stance. Although quite frankly I don't think even the KKE expected the balloon to pop as quickly and pathetically as it did.
    What was really amazing was the diverse amount of opinions in such a tiny country, there's only 10 million people living in greece. About the same size as New york city.

    Probably it is not so simple as craven political leadership though. What are the additional reasons why the UK pulled out of EU and Greece did not or cannot (yet)?
    Greece was a much poorer country and the UK is arguably the richest in the euro. The UK pays extra money every year to the poorer countries. In the end they get more control over how money is spent and where. Greeks didn't feel like they were getting enough money, Brits felt like they weren't getting enough control on how the money is spent.

    This relationship exists in the US with the states. California and New York pay more money every year than they receive in benefits. While states like Mississippi and Montana receive extra money every year. The only difference is we are not talking about a national currency. Nobody ever talks about the state of California forming its own currency and breaking away from the US even though by itself its the 7th largest economy in the world. In fact most American secessionist movements come from debtor states like Mississippi and Greece.

    I just dont see Catalonia leaving the EU. they might break away from the weird federal autonomous union that spains under but they'll be eager to stay in the EU. They just simply can't afford it. I don't think Britain can afford it either, they might be the richest state in the EU, but the EU all put together is still much richer than them, so even they might backtrack as well
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    An alternative point of view -- this is from the CPGB-ML, whose tagline is 'Rebuild Britain', presumably from the ashes of Brexit.

    EU causes pain in Catalonia


    The separatist movement in Catalonia and the reaction to it have raised questions about the future of Spain. The EU pretends to stand to one side but the situation is of its making.


    For many decades the EU has had a policy of “A Europe of the Regions”, which leaches power away from national governments. EU regional policy provides funds for projects to be enacted by local officials at a regional level, largely bypassing national governments. This policy represents one of the key tools of EU governance, attracting more than a third of the EU’s overall budget.


    Power does not go to the regions, but instead to those who run the central EU institutions. More centralisation at the EU level and increasing diversity at regional level are parts of a single development, the weakening of the nation-state. This policy is designed to destabilise member nations, the better to impose a pan-European structure.

    The EU has in this way stoked internal disputes inside many of its member countries. When these disputes flare up, as now between the Spanish government and Catalonia, the EU then sits back and watches as conflict erupts.


    Spaniards who want to leave Spain are fighting the wrong enemy. The enemy is not Spain, nor other Spanish people. Nobody in Spain is suffering from national oppression. They are all suffering from capitalism, the euro and the EU. The last thing that the Spanish people need is another capitalist state on Spain’s territory.

    Millions and millions of Spaniards want to live together in peace and freedom. The majority in the region who oppose separatism would be outraged at having their nationality changed by this minority vote. This applies even more so to those outside the region.


    The EU is fomenting discord; it is the problem, not the solution. Nobody should interfere in matters that are the concern of the Spanish people.



    Source
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    What was really amazing was the diverse amount of opinions in such a tiny country, there's only 10 million people living in greece. About the same size as New york city.

    Greece was a much poorer country and the UK is arguably the richest in the euro. The UK pays extra money every year to the poorer countries. In the end they get more control over how money is spent and where. Greeks didn't feel like they were getting enough money, Brits felt like they weren't getting enough control on how the money is spent.

    This relationship exists in the US with the states. California and New York pay more money every year than they receive in benefits. While states like Mississippi and Montana receive extra money every year. The only difference is we are not talking about a national currency. Nobody ever talks about the state of California forming its own currency and breaking away from the US even though by itself its the 7th largest economy in the world. In fact most American secessionist movements come from debtor states like Mississippi and Greece.

    I just dont see Catalonia leaving the EU. they might break away from the weird federal autonomous union that spains under but they'll be eager to stay in the EU. They just simply can't afford it. I don't think Britain can afford it either, they might be the richest state in the EU, but the EU all put together is still much richer than them, so even they might backtrack as well
    It's my understanding that the EU is threatening to exclude an independent Catalonia, not that Catalonia is seeking secession in order to leave the EU.

    So, if they do break away from Spain, it seems this would entail breaking away from the EU. Those leading the independence movement seem to understand the impact of that as you describe it.
    "I'm a pessimist because of intelligence, but an optimist because of will." - Antonio Gramsci

    "If he did advocate revolutionary change, such advocacy could not, of course, receive constitutional protection, since it would be by definition anti-constitutional."
    - J.A. MacGuigan in Roach v. Canada, 1994

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