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What is our position on the ANITFA movement?
Antifa is a gathering of fellow communists, socialists, and anarchists. What is your view on this movement? I think that they are putting the Idea of a proletariat revolution to actual application rather than the current "neo-liberal" (Ew... gotta get that taste outta my mouth) idea of no intervention whatsoever. In my opinion, they are our tool as the far-left to fight these neo-fascist white supremacists. So yeah, I want to know what my fellow lefties think. Oh, and if you are a fascist just browsing... fuck off m8. -Miguel
A rising of the masses requires no justification. [...] The masses followed our banner and our insurrection was victorious. And now we are told, "renounce you victory, make concessions, compromise". Compromise? To whom, I ask. Here no compromise is possible. To those who have left and to those who tell us to compromise we must say, "You are miserable bankrupts! Your role is played out! GO back to where you ought to go; in the dustbin of history!" -Leon Trotsky
"Let me say, at the risk of seeming ridiculous, that the true revolutionary is guided by great feelings of love" -Ernesto "Che" Guevara
I think in the US right now, antifa is a reason why fascist organizing is in disarray and a lot of people saw those direct actions happening and they understood it, fwiw. Same with the acab/ftp sentiment, I think people got that, there was a lot more of that.
"whatever they might make would never be the same as that world of dark streets and bright dreams"
http://youtu.be/g-PwIDYbDqI
Like the dude in vegas just demonstrated, Americans own guns. There's no need for stickfighting.
What do you mean?
"whatever they might make would never be the same as that world of dark streets and bright dreams"
http://youtu.be/g-PwIDYbDqI
I just dont agree fundamentally on anarchist style organization, no leader, no council, no face, just "antifa". We saw this with Occupy wall st, and it lead nowhere. Once the crisis or "recession" was over OWS was forgotten as quickly as it appeared. Just as once the Trump presidency is over, or probably not even that long, the american antifa revival will be forgotten just as mysteriously as it appeared
I appreciate your pessimism but it doesn't matter if you agree with it because even if all of that was true it was still antifa shutting down major fascist organizing events, without leaders, together, oftem times with the non-anarchist left, with all their councils, leaders, and pr, nowhere to be found.
"whatever they might make would never be the same as that world of dark streets and bright dreams"
http://youtu.be/g-PwIDYbDqI
I think antifascist action is a necessity for the revolutionary left. When it's not the state actively attempting to crush us or reformists driving a wedge between workers, it's the far right that are the most actively disruptive to our organising. Antifa as a movement is involved in more than throwing rocks at protests, there's a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff like tracking far-right organisations, their members, making venues that are hosting events organised by the far-right aware of the content when often the far-right tries to hide what will be happening, tracking online far-right discussions etc. I don't think these aspects of antifa are discussed enough.
The black bloc as a tactic is something I have mixed thoughts about. I appreciate the need to mask up at protests but I feel that the 'black bloc' has a certain anonymous machismo to it that is somewhat unhealthy. One of my favourite examples of direct action comes from the Italian student autonomists pictured below and I'd like to see more creative stuff like that instead of relying on black bloc tactics at virtually every counter-demo.
Modern democracy is nothing but the freedom to preach whatever is to the advantage of the bourgeoisie - Lenin
Antifa deserves absolute support from the left in the context of facing down fascists, and has been credited with saving lives in the process. It deserves credit for taking tactics far beyond the publishing of obscure party newspapers.
The biggest problem it will face, though, is that it's reactive by definition. As long as its goals are limited to responding with counter-demonstrations every time fascists try to organize a march, the absence of a "positive programme" actually pushing for something will limit what can be done.
I won't pretend to know the details of the on-the-ground situation, or to what extent Antifa includes a spectrum of groups within itself, but despite its more radical tactics, what's to stop Antifa from having the same shortcomings as anti-Trump protests---a simple rejection that falls short of putting forward anything proactive? I sincerely hope there is more to it.
"I'm a pessimist because of intelligence, but an optimist because of will." - Antonio Gramsci
"If he did advocate revolutionary change, such advocacy could not, of course, receive constitutional protection, since it would be by definition anti-constitutional."
- J.A. MacGuigan in Roach v. Canada, 1994
I thank all of you for your wonderful opinions on Antifa. I think that Antifa are doing good work in resisting the fascist ideas that are running rampant in the US. However, the one criticism is not that they are too hard on fascists; rather they are too soft! What happened when Hitler and Mussolini took power? There were no far-lefties to protest because the brown/black shirts would start using political intimidation on the working people. We need to smash these "peaceful demonstrations" before they take root and the government thinks that they are just another group that deserve rights. If they start becoming, in the public eye at least, "just another group in the political spectrum" then people will get so indifferent to the idea of fascism that it will soon start popping up in our centers for education, work, and life. We as good humans should do, nip the bud of fascism at the root before it can flower. And let me be clear... the only, ONLY way to do that is the systematic destruction of their leadership, ideas, literature, and their gatherings. As the saying goes: NO TRUMP, NO KKK, NO FASCIST USA! ONWARD COMRADES! UNTO FINAL VICTORY FOR THE PROLETARIAT!
A rising of the masses requires no justification. [...] The masses followed our banner and our insurrection was victorious. And now we are told, "renounce you victory, make concessions, compromise". Compromise? To whom, I ask. Here no compromise is possible. To those who have left and to those who tell us to compromise we must say, "You are miserable bankrupts! Your role is played out! GO back to where you ought to go; in the dustbin of history!" -Leon Trotsky
"Let me say, at the risk of seeming ridiculous, that the true revolutionary is guided by great feelings of love" -Ernesto "Che" Guevara
Thanks? I guess... I dont really know what to say. I hope you had fun? I didn't realize that was something we were supposed to be doing. What got you started in the shutting down of the fascist organizing events? Were you just bored one day and thought "let's go find some nazis and yell at them"?
What are antifas demands? What can the state agree to do that will get the protests, however peaceful they may be, to stop? If Trump is what started all of this then surely your goal must be to get Hillary Clinton in office right? No? Okay then who?
Also who gets to be in Antifa? If there is no member ship committee, than anyone can call themselves antifas right? Well what happens when some one else steals the name?
Forget what happens when well meaning people disagree on what it means to be antifa. Trump is not exactly openly declaring his love for mussolini's fascism. If you ask him if he's pro or anti-fascism, guess what his answer will be? So who or what is being protested?
Is it Capitalism? Then why not call yourself anti-capitalists or ancaps? is it because anarcho-capitalists stole the name ancaps? Is the name trademarked? is the name "antifa" less about ideology and more about a catchy sounding name that'll hit the twittersphere and spread like wildfire?
Anyways there are leaders and there are councils they are just secret to you me
i don't understand what this means
you don't have to demand anything when direct action can achieve a desired outcome, the rest of your post sounds a bit off the rails
it happens on social media but i think it depends on the actions, i think that makes it obvious what is or isn't antifa
there aren't leaders or councils
"whatever they might make would never be the same as that world of dark streets and bright dreams"
http://youtu.be/g-PwIDYbDqI
So, okay, let's pretend any of your questions are a legitimate criticism of antifa, what exactly are you proposing in terms of organization structure, action, etc...?Thanks? I guess... I dont really know what to say. I hope you had fun? I didn't realize that was something we were supposed to be doing. What got you started in the shutting down of the fascist organizing events? Were you just bored one day and thought "let's go find some nazis and yell at them"?
What are antifas demands? What can the state agree to do that will get the protests, however peaceful they may be, to stop? If Trump is what started all of this then surely your goal must be to get Hillary Clinton in office right? No? Okay then who?
Also who gets to be in Antifa? If there is no member ship committee, than anyone can call themselves antifas right? Well what happens when some one else steals the name?
Forget what happens when well meaning people disagree on what it means to be antifa. Trump is not exactly openly declaring his love for mussolini's fascism. If you ask him if he's pro or anti-fascism, guess what his answer will be? So who or what is being protested?
Is it Capitalism? Then why not call yourself anti-capitalists or ancaps? is it because anarcho-capitalists stole the name ancaps? Is the name trademarked? is the name "antifa" less about ideology and more about a catchy sounding name that'll hit the twittersphere and spread like wildfire?
Anyways there are leaders and there are councils they are just secret to you me
"I'm not interested in indulging whims from members of your faction."
Seeing as this is seen as acceptable by an admin, from here on out when I have a disagreement with someone I will be asking them to reference this. If you want an explanation of my views, too bad.
Well that's the million dollar question isn't it?
I think it's reasonable to support Antifa in most things, however, because of how disorganized they are, a lot of unnecessary violence has come out from it.
in what ways do you find antifa disorganized
"whatever they might make would never be the same as that world of dark streets and bright dreams"
http://youtu.be/g-PwIDYbDqI
My point is made pretty clear here: you don't actually know anything about Antifa, you tried to pose a bunch of irrelevant questions as if they were criticisms, then are unable to answer any questions surrounding alternatives.
"I'm not interested in indulging whims from members of your faction."
Seeing as this is seen as acceptable by an admin, from here on out when I have a disagreement with someone I will be asking them to reference this. If you want an explanation of my views, too bad.
How are any of those questions irrelevant? Why so defensive?
Since when has shutting down fascist meetings been a goal of anyone's on the left? I dont know where this idea comes from, so I have to assume its copycatting from europe. Theyre not bombing meeting places or killing members or even robbing them. They're just yelling at them. Who told you to do that? and why?
whats the desired outcome? would you clue us in?
what measures have been taken to ensure law enforcement have not infiltrated antifa? How many of these twitter handles are out of Langley?
officially yes, but obviously there are activists doing the majority of the work. Organizing meetings and protests, recruiting new members, setting directives, making plans and collecting funds. We just don't get to know who they are because its "all of us" its "the people". which is bullshit. Its just a way to avoid criticism. If we identify a leader then they'll be criticized (ad hom or not), they will hold views that can be pinned down and criticized from both the right and the left. instead of an undefined mass we become socialists anarchists communists and liberals all against eachother again.
how many antifa members would be lost if they said we should make the abolishment of capitalism a goal of antifa? 1% 50% 90%? some just want Clinton in office others just want a president Pence instead of Trump.
it's impossible to criticize (or really support them) because they don't actually exist. they are just a loose collection of activists with 100's of conflicting goals. The media likes to hype them up as somekind of left wing terrorist cell that will kill us all, as they did with OWS, BLM, La raza, the black panthers, the list goes on, hell even greenpeace used to be considered terrorist group. But atleast the black panthers and greenpeace had leadership, organization, hierarchy, and accountability.
The right wing has no problem with hierarchy they love it. Yet somehow i am expected to believe that the guy who works everyday organizing protests and making homemade antifa flags, is no more a leader than any guy who wanders in off the street. I'm sorry but that's bullshit, antifa is not an illegal organization they wont raid your house if they find out you're a member and if they did outlaw antifa and imprison their members nobody would save you, nobody would break into prison to rescue you, nobody will kidnap the mayor, nothing will happen. But if they did, the first goal would be to make antifa a legal organization again so they can have official political leadership not maintain anonymity like somekind of terrorist cell that never breaks any laws
Uhhh, it's been a tactic on the left for about as long as there have been fascists around. Also, they're not "just yelling at them." I'm new (old) here, but I'm curious if you always present statements as if they're fact, or just sometimes, or just here?
The desired outcome is to shut down fascist organizing before it can pose an even greater threat to our communities.
"Only one thing could have broken our movement – if the adversary had understood its principle and from the first day had smashed, with the most extreme brutality, the nucleus of our new movement.” - Hitler
I'm sure some law enforcement has infiltrated antifa at times, just as it has the black bloc, but the anonymity and decentralized organizing principles used in these tactics (which, ultimately, help keep people safe) are needed. Do you have some sort of suggestion as to how it could be improved? Infiltration by pigs isn't really something exclusive to antifa either, it happens to anarchists (black bloc), proto-Maoists (BPP) and Leninists (Bolsheviks).
Dude there are no "members." It's not a difficult concept to grasp. There are no dues, membership cards, or meetings. You can't join antifa, you can only become it. It's like, if I was to organize a protest tomorrow in my home town, against cuts to health services, and I put out a call to have people come protest with me around this topic, and 50 people decided to come out, they wouldn't be members of some fictitious organization I'm leading, they'd just be 50 people interested in organizing around a specific issue.
The fact that you're speaking about "antifa" members is absurd and shows you don't have much of a conception of anti-fascism tactics. Mao was a shit head, but he also had a decent point when he said 'no investigation, no right to speak.' Antifa doesn't have "official political leadership" because that would be counter-productive to the tactic. Of course it's a "loose collection of activists with 100's of conflicting goals." Ya, so, and, what? There was an antifa counter-demo not long ago where I'm from, and about 200 people came out to shut down some fascists, they ranged from liberals, to kids masked up, to Maoists, etc...and on that day everyone present, actively engaged in actions against fascists, were antifa. The only common goal is to halt fascist organizing, not establish some sort of political leadership. And guess what, when the action/counter-demo is finished, many of us go back to the anti-capitalist organizing we do in our day to day lives.
I mean, I think there are legitimate criticisms to be made on the "antifa moment" that's happening in the US anarchist scene right now, but this isn't it, or interesting, or particularly knowledgeable. Anyone who says it's "impossible" to support or criticize antifa, is skeptical as fuck in my books. There are fascists, and there are anti-fascists, there's no middle ground here, pick a side. I mean, your only half decent point has been highlight the fact that you're supposed to expect that there are no "leaders." Of course there are leaders in the sense of people who are charismatic and particularly active, but there is no formal leadership and it isn't wanted. The day I have to follow a leader is the day I fuck off.
It has less to do with shutting down fascist meetings specifically as it does, overall, have to do with stopping or disrupting their organizing which is what happened, certainly with more than just yelling. If the root of your question is 'why do we oppose fascism?', I think you should start in the anti-fascist resource area of the forum.
You stated that you don't like anarchist organizing or w/e but here it seems you are very unfamiliar with how that organizing took place.
It's a way to avoid leaders/hierarchy.
so you're saying the people with masks clashing with police and shutting down fascist organizing events also like the dems? I think the number of people who weren't previously involved in anarchist or communist activity who adopted tactics or tone, to deal with the police and the fascists, understood that there was no other option other than taking action. Despite the media backlash against antifa the images on the news played the same story, people becoming acquainted with pushing through police lines and fighting in the street, in order to disrupt order required to govern. That's both anti-inauguration/president actions and fascist organizing.
Your posts are confusing, i have no idea what you mean here. What are your thoughts on the j20 repression in regards to what you're saying here? What about the other riots that took place, and the state repression that followed?
Last edited by Ele'ill; 7th October 2017 at 18:31.
"whatever they might make would never be the same as that world of dark streets and bright dreams"
http://youtu.be/g-PwIDYbDqI
