What is our position on the ANITFA movement?

[quixoteslance]

Given that they've both killed and beaten people, I don't really care if you think that antifa is short sighted- they do save actual lives. You also seem to think no one involved with antifascist action is involved with anything else- that is objectively untrue. Antifasicts are in numerous other fields, from housing, to anti-police brutality, to actual direct work against capital. Not all antifascists of course but I'd wager a large amount of them. To claim short sightedness shows your lack of familiarity with Antifa itself.

Maybe my observation is partial, but I see the antifas as somewhat liberal leaning. A lot of antifas are formerly or even currently Bernie supporters. Their current dynamics in US also focuses on liberal issues.
Maybe we are just referring to different groups of people. But if activists under the name of antifa and anarchism effectively ally with the true problem makers to beat the neo-nazis and if all their doings mount to clearing the way for a new Hillary, that will be too sad.

[BIXX]

Maybe my observation is partial, but I see the antifas as somewhat liberal leaning. A lot of antifas are formerly or even currently Bernie supporters. Their current dynamics in US also focuses on liberal issues.
Maybe we are just referring to different groups of people. But if activists under the name of antifa and anarchism effectively ally with the true problem makers to beat the neo-nazis and if all their doings mount to clearing the way for a new Hillary, that will be too sad.

Once again you're showing your lack of actual knowledge about Antifa. There surely are "antifascists" who are Bernie bros but the vast majority are not. For the most part they're communists and people sympathetic to communists. I will agree that some organizations (I have a specific Portland org in mind as I write this) who loosely affiliate themselves with antifascists but are liberals through and through, however those orgs consistently have major internal clashes with antifascists due to their attempts at coopting antifascist struggle.

IMO it's the work of antifascists to also begin building alternative projects, not just focusing on antifascist activity but other communist measures that go beyond those I've listed in my previous post.

[TomLeftist]

Willow: you are right, what poor people (blacks, whites, muslims, latinos, gays etc) need is an ultra-leftist political party, or political front, with a radical leftist political program. With a scientific orderly way of spreading ultra-leftist propaganda (not leftist, because in USA leftist might mean Amy Goodman, Naomi Klein, The Nation Magazine, Jeremy Scahill, Chris Hedges, Green Party, Sean Pen, Danyy Glover, Oliver Stone, Juan Cole, Cindy Sheehan etc) and those people in mentioned there are not radical marxists, they are like centrist-leftists (Like Michelle Bachelet) the current Chilean president.

So I think that what need is a front, composed of all the leftists of the whole USA who are in favor of a dictatorship of the workers and poor peasants

I just dont agree fundamentally on anarchist style organization, no leader, no council, no face, just "antifa". We saw this with Occupy wall st, and it lead nowhere. Once the crisis or "recession" was over OWS was forgotten as quickly as it appeared. Just as once the Trump presidency is over, or probably not even that long, the american antifa revival will be forgotten just as mysteriously as it appeared

[quixoteslance]

Once again you're showing your lack of actual knowledge about Antifa. There surely are "antifascists" who are Bernie bros but the vast majority are not. For the most part they're communists and people sympathetic to communists. I will agree that some organizations (I have a specific Portland org in mind as I write this) who loosely affiliate themselves with antifascists but are liberals through and through, however those orgs consistently have major internal clashes with antifascists due to their attempts at coopting antifascist struggle.

IMO it's the work of antifascists to also begin building alternative projects, not just focusing on antifascist activity but other communist measures that go beyond those I've listed in my previous post.

I believe there are antifas who are engaging at communist and anarchist fronts. But the appearance of antifa on media and activities of my local antifa demonstrate little communist or anarchist agenda. Especially the antifas around me, they are more like liberals acting violently. It seems their momentum are gained mostly from those sympathetic with identity politics more than revolutionary leftism. Those communist or anarchist antifas are not having much voice in the whole movement, or at least their agenda is not reflected well. But certainly they make the mainstream feel the fear and introduces a far-left gesture, so I won't say they are just liberals. They are trying to push leftism as far as it is not revolutionary. All I am saying is that they are somewhat short-sighted, maybe waiting for some triggering.

[TucsonTrotskyite]

Quixoteslance, are you saying "in theory" if there was a push for a complete revolution, then the liberal antifa could perhaps be swayed to fight for the goals of the Communist Ideology? If you could elaborate on what kind of trigger we would need that would be much appreciated.

[quixoteslance]

Quixoteslance, are you saying "in theory" if there was a push for a complete revolution, then the liberal antifa could perhaps be swayed to fight for the goals of the Communist Ideology? If you could elaborate on what kind of trigger we would need that would be much appreciated.

I think about it and I feel like I can't imagine them being in a total revolution... Sorry... It's possible for the liberal leaning antifas to block the Wall Street or the congress though. I just don't want to criticize them too harshly because they are doing good things for now.

[AngryDwarf]

My opinion: antifa are widely left-wing Association, with conflicting ideas and goals, which is logical for such opportunistic movements. This movement is helpless and in no way able to bring the socialist revolution and the establishment of proletarian dictatorship. But in some cases can be useful. For example, as protection from the fascist(nationalist) groups, gangs, incited by the bourgeoisie to destroy the Marxists

[Ele'ill]

My opinion: antifa are widely left-wing Association, with conflicting ideas and goals, which is logical for such opportunistic movements. This movement is helpless and in no way able to bring the socialist revolution and the establishment of proletarian dictatorship. But in some cases can be useful. For example, as protection from the fascist(nationalist) groups, gangs, incited by the bourgeoisie to destroy the Marxists

I think it's probably better than not that a fascist platform was shut down with force by thousands of armed people on a handful of occasions, who set out with that purpose. To say that their specific activity didn't or couldn't bring about socialist revolution misses the point imo that thousands of armed people hospitalized their enemies while shutting down a fascist platform and pursuing them afterwards and that there was nothing else from the general left to do that so some silly bands of people refusing to participate in activism or waiting armed themselves and attacked

Imo I think it's noteworthy that from the elections until present, people previously unaffiliated with a particular revolutionary trajectory carried out actions like highway blockades, holding space, clashes with the police, the fash, and a generalized narrative seen as action was carried, against elections, the police, fascism, and the future looking like an inextinguishable trash fire. There were liberal actions with liberal ideas too which i'm not interested in or referring to.

[Loar]

Isn't shutting down speech fascist? Antifa was shutting down speech of opposing political views. Whether or not those views are correct or wrong are irrelevant. Individuals using terror to suppress another's voice is fascism. Antifa suppresses opposition with violence.

fascism (făshˈĭzˌəm)

►

• n.
  A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

[ckaihatsu]

Isn't shutting down speech fascist? Antifa was shutting down speech of opposing political views. Whether or not those views are correct or wrong are irrelevant. Individuals using terror to suppress another's voice is fascism. Antifa suppresses opposition with violence.

fascism (făshˈĭzˌəm)

►

• n.
  A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

No, the *content* of fascist views is *not* 'irrelevant' -- fascists, by definition, are willing to deny free-speech, and even life itself, to those of social minority groups simply because they *are* social minorities in our society. This is an active, standing *physical threat* to all of those demographics, and their political supporters (anti-fascists).

You're conflating means-with-ends, and winding up in apologetics for organized bullying behavior as a result.

A group like antifa isn't there to 'debate-out' on political principles with active fascists, it's there to *neutralize* the standing threat that fascists embody to other members of society. That's a valid strategy for dealing with such a dangerous ideology, whether in the U.S., Ukraine, or anywhere else.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Isn't shutting down speech fascist? Antifa was shutting down speech of opposing political views. Whether or not those views are correct or wrong are irrelevant. Individuals using terror to suppress another's voice is fascism. Antifa suppresses opposition with violence.

fascism (făshˈĭzˌəm)

►

• n.
  A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

no it isn’t fascism to shout down a bunch of fascists. Even by the definition you provided which talked about a government repressing people.

If a white nationalist rally is free speech isn’t a counter-protest also “free speech”?

Besides, the white nationalists aren’t interested in simply presenting a viewpoint, they have their conventions and whatnot for that - when they protest in public, their aim is intimidating people and confusing centrists. Essentially irl trolling at best a modern cross burning more likely.

[Loar]

Even tho there are white, brown, yellow, green, lesbian and straight in the crowd they are called white nationalists? Attacking speech with fear or violence is fascist. It is exactly what Hitler did while forming his national socialist party. I do not understand the label at all. Now a KKK rally is different. It seems massively hypocritical.

There are tons of people I do not believe anything that comes out of their mouth is positive but I would never throw bottles, urine and misc stuff at them while wearing masks.

[El_Comandante]

You do realize you're using conservative, often far-right, talking points, don't you? Comparing anti-fascist protests to Hitler, and referring to the Nazi Party as "national socialist" are usually sure signs you're dealing with a right-winger.

And even if you are a socialist, and you're correct that political violence is fascist, what does that prove? Socialists have been advocating revolutionary violence since before Marx, and we don't plan on stopping just because it's "fascist." The third world has the right to liberate itself from capitalism-imperialism by any means necessary, and you calling socialist violence "fascist" is counter-revolutionary, and counterproductive. You're either an ally of the people, and you support the masses in liberating themselves however they see fit, or you're an enemy of the people; it's as simple as that.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Even tho there are white, brown, yellow, green, lesbian and straight in the crowd they are called white nationalists?

If they’re supporting white nationalism, yes.

Attacking speech with fear or violence is fascist. It is exactly what Hitler did while forming his national socialist party. I do not understand the label at all. Now a KKK rally is different. It seems massively hypocritical.

why is a KKK rally different? Because they call for Jews, Catholics, immigrants or blacks to “get in line” or face vigilante violence?

But Idenity Evropa preppies cheer and joke after a dude for running over a woman... is different?

Milo Y planning on releasing the names of immigrant college students to a fan base known for doxxing people online is different than brown shirts revealing Jewish owned businesses to make them targets?

I don’t consider their rallies to be free speech in the common understanding. It’s a show of force, it’s an implied threat. Why do a group of anti-immigrant NAZIs from Minnesota fly to LA for a “free speech” rally? Why did neo-NAZIs plan a march through a Jewish neighborhood?

I’m not arguing to have the government shut them down, but I do think we can and do have the ability to popularly make it known that there is a large opposition to the far right.

There are tons of people I do not believe anything that comes out of their mouth is positive but I would never throw bottles, urine and misc stuff at them while wearing masks.

yeah, me too. Some people like metal or emo or licorice. They’re wrong, but have at it. Or there are countless know-it-all conservatives who talk a lot of nonsense, some of it offensive. Go for it, be an ass.

But the far right are trying to normalize attacks and terrorizing immigrants, gays, women, and the left. They are not interested in “free speech” for anyone else and so it’s a huge mistake to take them at their word on this. They are trying to establish a president for hate speech as free speech, discrimination of gays as “freedom of religion” and so on.

Online they are quite blunt about using these concepts to draw in regular conservatives while yawing liberal sacred cows (like “free speech” or “diversity” of politics) to confuse the political center.

I don’t think antifa’s tactics and the outlook of some participants political outlook are the strongest or best response to this (I think Boston showed that mass-mobilization embarrassed them and made them weak whereas steet-fights appeal to some of them or make them feel glory). BUT I do think we need to seriously confront the new far right or oppressed people and the left will be more regularly targeted by fascist orgs or vigilantes.

[Loar]

You do realize you're using conservative, often far-right, talking points, don't you? Comparing anti-fascist protests to Hitler, and referring to the Nazi Party as "national socialist" are usually sure signs you're dealing with a right-winger.

Because the NAZI's were socialist. Maybe I am just way more tolerant and understanding to others than you. I do not usually want to punch everyone who does not believe the same way I do. You can not force the world in to communism. Punching and screaming while name calling does nothing. Open dialog and education is the only thing that works. Assuming that everyone that does not like communism is fascist or white nationalists (Even calling people of color white nationalists) does nothing but keep you further from your goal.

To be honest the only way communism would ever truly exist would be an evolutionary change in the reward system. It will not happen in my life time. As soon as individuals desire the satisfaction of helping human kind as a reward for work then the world will become a better place. Until then kicking screaming and name calling gets nothing resolved. Maybe I am just WAY older and more experienced in life.

Also, try not to prejudge those around you who do not believe everything you say is 100% correct. Or maybe this is just a prejudging angry forum.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Because the NAZI's were socialist. Maybe I am just way more tolerant and understanding to others than you. I do not usually want to punch everyone who does not believe the same way I do. You can not force the world in to communism. Punching and screaming while name calling does nothing. Open dialog and education is the only thing that works. Assuming that everyone that does not like communism is fascist or white nationalists (Even calling people of color white nationalists) does nothing but keep you further from your goal.

To be honest the only way communism would ever truly exist would be an evolutionary change in the reward system. It will not happen in my life time. As soon as individuals desire the satisfaction of helping human kind as a reward for work then the world will become a better place. Until then kicking screaming and name calling gets nothing resolved. Maybe I am just WAY older and more experienced in life.

Also, try not to prejudge those around you who do not believe everything you say is 100% correct. Or maybe this is just a prejudging angry forum.

You are arguing straw-figures.

[Loar]

Straw Figures?

[Loar]

If they’re supporting white nationalism, yes.

why is a KKK rally different? Because they call for Jews, Catholics, immigrants or blacks to “get in line” or face vigilante violence?

But Idenity Evropa preppies cheer and joke after a dude for running over a woman... is different?

I believe so because the KKK actually has murdered people in the past.

Milo Y planning on releasing the names of immigrant college students to a fan base known for doxxing people online is different than brown shirts revealing Jewish owned businesses to make them targets?

Yes because Hitler threw them all in ovens.

I’m not arguing to have the government shut them down, but I do think we can and do have the ability to popularly make it known that there is a large opposition to the far right.

I do not believe attacking the cops, wearing masks, throwing urine and bottles at those who do not believe what you believe is the correct way to win anything.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Straw Figures?

Yes, no one is “attacking people for mere disagreement... college campuses are full of people promoting conservative views of the economy or history or what have you. Further I work with liberals all the time and strongly disagree with their politics and assumptions too. But unlike the alt-right nationalists, liberals and conservatives are not actively trying to make a “hot take” on diversity when they terrorize critics, release their personal information online, drive cars into crowds of protesters, drive a motorcycle through universal healthcare protest pickets. Average Republican and Democrat voters don’t aspire to be a US Golden Dawn or idolize Pinochet murdering leftists. When Republicans and Democrats voters gather, they don’t beat up people, try and surround a church, hurl slurs, march at night while chanting about stopping the Jews.

Nobody is trying to stop them due to their “speech” or because they disagree in general. It’s against their potential and desire to mobilize in the streets to act like a civilian police of... poor black folks, Latinos, any one of any race that looks vaguely middle eastern, striking teachers, leftists in general. At the same time the new far right cries about “free speech” what are their actual actions: doxxing (ie trying to silence) feminists and black celebrities or activists, campaigns to get “leftist” professors fired, an attempt to list all the immigrant or trans students names and faces on a university campus for a far right audience known for doxxing and worse, attacking people in Charlottesville and so on.

We do have to win over liberals and conservatives, but acting like the partially to confirmed new fascists are interested in free speech or discussion is to mistake an advancing enemy army for a diplomatic envoy. There are no shared goals that can be discussed, it would be a conversation with the qualities of a lunch meeting between wolves and lambs.

[Loar]

I never defended any side. I was just giving my opinion on the new fascist organization sponsored by the evil hate mongol George Soros ANTIFA. Most of those kids are paid to be there and the majority of them have no clue whats going on in politics or the world. They are trying to beat up people for money. The vast majority of them are fake. In no way was I defending any opposition that was doing the same thing.

You have to live with people. If every time you did not like something you punch it in the mouth you get nowhere. It is basically a selfish temporary fix.

Just like if someone said a racist word to another person and that person punched him in the mouth for it there is always a bigger problem than initially. The individual that used the racist word does not change for the better. They get worse.