Do the Charlottesville Nazis deserve violence after the fact?

[GLF]

I'm probably going to be ostracized from revleft for this, but I don't care. This is something that's been making me sad. I've been on youtube, twitter, and other sites and pretty much laughing at those silly little Nazis crying about how everyone's being mean to them. Sending them hatemail, threatening them and getting them fired and shit. It's pretty much them against the whole country at this point which I think is a very good and healthy thing. But then I started to kinda feel bad about that. We've never had anything like this before in Charlottesville with the doxing and shit, and I'm finding out that I don't really feel at all comfortable with it. Is it just my nature to not like seeing people who are outnumbered being attacked? I would never defend the far-right on the streets - I would kick their little asses no matter how "outnumbered" they were, but for some reason this just feels different to me.

I talked to my partner about this and he agrees but says that "the people have a right to express themselves" in the fallout. He said that I shouldn't feel sorry for them no matter how outnumbered they are and that I should feel sorry the victims. And that they better learn a lesson.

Outnumbered has nothing to do with it, though. Trump is the most hated man on the planet and I don't feel any need to defend his dumb ass. The bourgeoisie is vastly outnumbered, too, and I dream of war on them. It's not that they're outnumbered - Nazis should always be outnumbered. Yet I don't have an explanation for it... I don't know what's wrong with me. Am I turning into Chomsky?

I can honestly say that outside the context of class-struggle, there isn't a single class of person or a single type of person that I hate. I wish that everyone of those deluded boys would've been rounded up in a padded wagon and sent to a reeducation facility. But we don't have that. And if we're being honest...we'll probably never have it. This is liberal rule, and we're going to be under it for the next thousand years and there's nothing that any of us can ever do to stop it.

I just hate that there's so much pain and hate in this world.

[Laika]

I'm probably going to be ostracized from revleft for this, but I don't care. This is something that's been making me sad. I've been on youtube, twitter, and other sites and pretty much laughing at those silly little Nazis crying about how everyone's being mean to them. Sending them hatemail, threatening them and getting them fired and shit. It's pretty much them against the whole country at this point which I think is a very good and healthy thing. But then I started to kinda feel bad about that. We've never had anything like this before in Charlottesville with the doxing and shit, and I'm finding out that I don't really feel at all comfortable with it. Is it just my nature to not like seeing people who are outnumbered being attacked? I would never defend the far-right on the streets - I would kick their little asses no matter how "outnumbered" they were, but for some reason this just feels different to me.

I talked to my partner about this and he agrees but says that "the people have a right to express themselves" in the fallout. He said that I shouldn't feel sorry for them no matter how outnumbered they are and that I should feel sorry the victims. And that they better learn a lesson.

Outnumbered has nothing to do with it, though. Trump is the most hated man on the planet and I don't feel any need to defend his dumb ass. The bourgeoisie is vastly outnumbered, too, and I dream of war on them. It's not that they're outnumbered - Nazis should always be outnumbered. Yet I don't have an explanation for it... I don't know what's wrong with me. Am I turning into Chomsky?

I can honestly say that outside the context of class-struggle, there isn't a single class of person or a single type of person that I hate. I wish that everyone of those deluded boys would've been rounded up in a padded wagon and sent to a reeducation facility. But we don't have that. And if we're being honest...we'll probably never have it. This is liberal rule, and we're going to be under it for the next thousand years and there's nothing that any of us can ever do to stop it.

I just hate that there's so much pain and hate in this world.

I felt the same way because I can well imagine it happen to "us" in the far-left if we ever get too out of line for the establishment. no-one would care. they'd just laugh and keep punching us when we're down. they'd hate us out of the same belief we are devils when we are complete strangers to them. Its a form of mob justice with people taking revenge on other people because of a label. I wouldn't call it the "people expressing themselves". the people have expressed themselves with bare faced hypocrisy and cowardice by ignoring the problem for years but now they suddenly "care" because they feel threatened by it. a mob remains a mob even if we may agree with what makes it angry. they are animated by passions that they have no self-control over and will throw themselves into destructiveness with unthinking fanaticism as they take out their repressed sadistic longings on other people. suddenly the oppressed get to feel like they matter. unfortunately, those same nazis would use mobs against jews, gays and blacks when they think they have the upper hand and can get away with it. there are probably some nazis out there trying to do what they think is right and will brave the circumstances, but they are wrong and are on the wrong side. it is a wasted effort and virtues for a bad cause. the more enlightened of them may say the same of us.

I know that isn't considered a "good" thing from the standpoint of the class struggle because your supposed to be partisan and always stand up for the "winning side" and the "just cause", but as a set of emotions we have to grapple with- it is a very communist thing to do. it is not something to be ashamed of. we are for all humanity, even our enemies, most of whom were abused and lied to in order to turn them into they monsters they are. we have to fight them but we must chose our methods carefully based on reason, not just rage. hatred is often a sign of our own emotional poverty or worse, a sense of fear and inferiority. I think it is better to be humbled by the power of the mob because at least then you understand what "revolution" consists of. it has a profound ugliness to it and it means we start to grapple with the nature of the social forces that are unleashed in the class struggle beyond the protection of "bourgeois" law. to be truly moral is to do what is right regardless of whether there is punishment. mobs typically are opportunistic and are less "moral" because they do what they think they can get away with. beyond that I don't know what to say but it is important to be honest with yourself and not hide from what makes us uncomfortable simply because it is expedient. the sort of heroic ideal communism can represent demands self-mastery and discipline, and that cannot be found in a mob even if we think their cause is a just one.

[BIXX]

If you're wondering why you feel this way, in my experience it's largely because of certain political experiences (not a quantitative experience, a qualitative one) that influence what they think of all this. Also, idk whether you've been at one of the rallies in person (and you shouldn't tell me yes or no) but I think your views would change very quick.

[GLF]

Its a form of mob justice ...

That's it...the words I was looking for. That's why it left a bad taste in my mouth. Even if they do deserve it (the doxing, death threats, etc), I felt a little conflicted.

For me, things like Antifa and left-wing resistance has always existed in the context of defending those the far-right set out to attack. Make no mistake, the far-right need to be pummeled in the streets in defense of those they are attacking. In that context I find it vulgar to defend those attacking people for things they can't help inasmuch as they can help it themselves...no one has forced them to be nazis. But outside that, I see them as young boys with mental problems, and I can't help but pity them against the wrath of an entire country...even though I know that as an LGBTQ person with a Jewish name, they would want to kill me.

[The Intransigent Faction]

That's it...the words I was looking for. That's why it left a bad taste in my mouth. Even if they do deserve it (the doxing, death threats, etc), I felt a little conflicted.

For me, things like Antifa and left-wing resistance has always existed in the context of defending those the far-right set out to attack. Make no mistake, the far-right need to be pummeled in the streets in defense of those they are attacking. In that context I find it vulgar to defend those attacking people for things they can't help inasmuch as they can help it themselves...no one has forced them to be nazis. But outside that, I see them as young boys with mental problems, and I can't help but pity them against the wrath of an entire country...even though I know that as an LGBTQ person with a Jewish name, they would want to kill me.

It makes sense to be uneasy about engaging in tactics which have been and will be used against the radical left. Being "outed" to an employer or potential employers as a communist wouldn't go over well, either, and relying on those with power to deny fascists an ability to gather and agitate can easily backfire.

It's a messy situation when you have those in power condemning violence "on all sides," or calling for "non-violent resistance," and both fascists and socialists predictably rejecting "peaceful coexistence." Even as the state says this, it shows inaction toward Nazi violence while forming a protective wall around vastly-outnumbered fascists. While exposing a fundamental reality of the bourgeois state, this also shows the fierceness of the struggle anti-fascists have ahead of them.

P.S., I can post again! Thanks ckaihatsu.

[Ele'ill]

There isn't really an 'after the fact' because they're still organizing. If some of them are crying about having their 'lives ruined' I'd have to ask which life? Their life as a fascist that they saw for themselves? If some of them didn't know this was real this is a great wake up call for them to fuck off and never ever go back.

[GLF]

There isn't really an 'after the fact' because they're still organizing. If some of them are crying about having their 'lives ruined' I'd have to ask which life? Their life as a fascist that they saw for themselves? If some of them didn't know this was real this is a great wake up call for them to fuck off and never ever go back.

Yea, it's fucked up. In any decent society they wouldn't have the ability organize. They would be rounded up in padded wagons and sent to reeducation facilities. But I'll be damned if I want the present state to have that kinda power. One of the biggest problems with everything is the fact that more often then not these boys don't own capital or the means that produce it yet are hell bent on defending white supremacy. It makes absolutely zero sense to me. But deluded boys carrying torches, while tremendously ugly and threatening to the most vulnerable elements of society, isn't really all that captivating an example of white supremacy. A better example of white supremacy are the fucking bank accounts of many of the people on TV condemning those boys. And that pisses me off.

If there is an upside to this...it's them being disrupted from organizing in the future. I hope they are. And I hope they think long and hard about their future endeavors.

[Ele'ill]

Yea, it's fucked up. In any decent society they wouldn't have the ability organize.

no such luxury will ever exist

They would be rounded up in padded wagons and sent to reeducation facilities. But I'll be damned if I want the present state to have that kinda power.

all states have that power over everyone even if it's not exercised at any given moment

One of the biggest problems with everything is the fact that more often then not these boys don't own capital or the means that produce it yet are hell bent on defending white supremacy. It makes absolutely zero sense to me. But deluded boys carrying torches, while tremendously ugly and threatening to the most vulnerable elements of society, isn't really all that captivating an example of white supremacy. A better example of white supremacy are the fucking bank accounts of many of the people on TV condemning those boys. And that pisses me off.

I wouldn't say 'more often than not' and white privilege goes a long way even without the wealth to the point that 'the most vulnerable elements of society' is pretty much the entire world.

If there is an upside to this...it's them being disrupted from organizing in the future. I hope they are. And I hope they think long and hard about their future endeavors.

I hope the consciousness of the state's various maneuverings within this become more and more visible.

[ckaihatsu]

I felt the same way because I can well imagine it happen to "us" in the far-left if we ever get too out of line for the establishment. no-one would care. they'd just laugh and keep punching us when we're down. they'd hate us out of the same belief we are devils when we are complete strangers to them.

The actions of the state in this regard tend to set the status-quo 'example' for people to adopt and follow, unfortunately -- it's common to run-into the liberal-type mindset that far-left and far-right are *equivalent*, because both ends are willing to use extra-state violence, and because of historical Stalinism and Nazism, respectively.

So this centrist position is a *privileged* one, because the supporters of the state then get to play 'referee' between the two sides, as though the opposing sides are just brand-like 'flavors', or sports teams, each vying in similar, generic ways for their own victory over the other -- nothing is usually covered, outside of the recent Charlottesville incident, in the corporate press, as to deeper motivations or interests, or why the two sides are *not* 'equivalent' politically.

Its a form of mob justice with people taking revenge on other people because of a label. I wouldn't call it the "people expressing themselves". the people have expressed themselves with bare faced hypocrisy and cowardice by ignoring the problem for years but now they suddenly "care" because they feel threatened by it. a mob remains a mob even if we may agree with what makes it angry. they are animated by passions that they have no self-control over and will throw themselves into destructiveness with unthinking fanaticism as they take out their repressed sadistic longings on other people. suddenly the oppressed get to feel like they matter.

Agreed -- I'm reminded of Wilde here:

The emotions of man are stirred more quickly than man’s intelligence; and, as I pointed out some time ago in an article on the function of criticism, it is much more easy to have sympathy with suffering than it is to have sympathy with thought. Accordingly, with admirable, though misdirected intentions, they very seriously and very sentimentally set themselves to the task of remedying the evils that they see. But their remedies do not cure the disease: they merely prolong it. Indeed, their remedies are part of the disease.

https://www.marxists.org/reference/a...scar/soul-man/

As long as polarized political newbies are willing to 'take out their repressed sadistic longings' on the *far-right*, I'd have no problems with this kind of 'mob passion', because at least they're picking the correct target. Maybe the oppressed would then learn from their experiences more of the underlying social reasons for why marginalizing the far-right (and the bourgeoisie) is a *good* thing.

unfortunately, those same nazis would use mobs against jews, gays and blacks when they think they have the upper hand and can get away with it. there are probably some nazis out there trying to do what they think is right and will brave the circumstances, but they are wrong and are on the wrong side. it is a wasted effort and virtues for a bad cause.

Yes.

the more enlightened of them may say the same of us.

This statement is puzzling since you're empathizing with far-right politics.

I know that isn't considered a "good" thing from the standpoint of the class struggle because your supposed to be partisan and always stand up for the "winning side" and the "just cause", but as a set of emotions we have to grapple with- it is a very communist thing to do. it is not something to be ashamed of. we are for all humanity, even our enemies, most of whom were abused and lied to in order to turn them into they monsters they are. we have to fight them but we must chose our methods carefully based on reason, not just rage.

Yeah, the reason why we're revolutionaries (in this polarized context) is because the far-right has no qualms with victimizing social minorities at any chance they get -- they should be made to feel some of that pain that they're so willing to dish out onto others, in hopes that they'll get the message that such arbitrary violent behavior is *not* socially acceptable.

Let's call it 'political operant conditioning'.

hatred is often a sign of our own emotional poverty or worse, a sense of fear and inferiority. I think it is better to be humbled by the power of the mob because at least then you understand what "revolution" consists of. it has a profound ugliness to it and it means we start to grapple with the nature of the social forces that are unleashed in the class struggle beyond the protection of "bourgeois" law.

I don't see why you would think of class-struggle revolution as being 'ugly' -- as long as there's principles and coordination it's actually *uplifting*, because it *can't* be a 'mob' when people are struggling to empower the working class, towards workers power and the overthrow of bourgeois repression.

to be truly moral is to do what is right regardless of whether there is punishment. mobs typically are opportunistic and are less "moral" because they do what they think they can get away with. beyond that I don't know what to say but it is important to be honest with yourself and not hide from what makes us uncomfortable simply because it is expedient. the sort of heroic ideal communism can represent demands self-mastery and discipline, and that cannot be found in a mob even if we think their cause is a just one.

Exactly -- this is more to-the-point, I'd say.

It makes sense to be uneasy about engaging in tactics which have been and will be used against the radical left. Being "outed" to an employer or potential employers as a communist wouldn't go over well, either, and relying on those with power to deny fascists an ability to gather and agitate can easily backfire.

Or, as with anti-fascist actions in general, it can put those with power (employers, Trump, etc.) *on-the-spot*, forcing them to deal with the larger political environment, which happens to include fascist-minded repression against social minorities, and those on the far-left who can physically counter fascist sentiments.

It's a messy situation when you have those in power condemning violence "on all sides," or calling for "non-violent resistance," and both fascists and socialists predictably rejecting "peaceful coexistence." Even as the state says this, it shows inaction toward Nazi violence while forming a protective wall around vastly-outnumbered fascists. While exposing a fundamental reality of the bourgeois state, this also shows the fierceness of the struggle anti-fascists have ahead of them.

Yup.

P.S., I can post again! Thanks ckaihatsu.

Yup.

Yea, it's fucked up. In any decent society they wouldn't have the ability organize. They would be rounded up in padded wagons and sent to reeducation facilities. But I'll be damned if I want the present state to have that kinda power.

Why not, though -- ? With incidents of sexual harassment, for example, cops and white-collar types are sent to 'diversity training', which is a *positive* step, however inadequate (due to the *institutional* nature of racism, sexism, etc., manifested in society).

If the state can be maneuvered into doing some of our political work *for* us (by taking liberal-type steps in specific instances), then that would be a *good* thing, though ultimately inadequate, of course.

One of the biggest problems with everything is the fact that more often then not these boys don't own capital or the means that produce it yet are hell bent on defending white supremacy. It makes absolutely zero sense to me.

It's reactionary opportunism -- carving out formerly-racist-hegemonic social practices, for contrived social justification / status, and power, of course. It's inherently *idealism* since it's not based on a materialist analysis of societal production (labor).

But deluded boys carrying torches, while tremendously ugly and threatening to the most vulnerable elements of society, isn't really all that captivating an example of white supremacy. A better example of white supremacy are the fucking bank accounts of many of the people on TV condemning those boys. And that pisses me off.

Good point.

If there is an upside to this...it's them being disrupted from organizing in the future. I hope they are. And I hope they think long and hard about their future endeavors.

They won't, of course, because they're *opportunists* -- their politics goes as deep as whatever they can get away with.

I hope the consciousness of the state's various maneuverings within this become more and more visible.

Yes -- that's what the current emergent mass consciousness, from empirical political polarization, is already revealing.

[ZombieMarx]

Within the anti-fascist struggle, violence should always an option. It's one tool within the available tool set. Any legalistic approach is a naive one. The bourgeois authorities are part of the problem, not the solution.
Especially in the US now, any fascist ambitions to rule the streets should be stifled from the beginning by all means necessary.

220px-Good-night-wide-pride.gif

[Ele'ill]

Yes -- that's what the current emergent mass consciousness, from empirical political polarization, is already revealing.

My point was that the 'mass consciousness' you're talking about might be a mobilization against trump and nazi's but is generally unaware of state collusion with fascists, and co-opting of struggle by liberal organizations, or liberal leaders within organizations. I can pick out some examples where this is the case and also examples where there's efforts being made to break down the state's and liberal leadership's legitimacy in being a keeper of 'good' order.

[GLF]

Why not, though -- ? With incidents of sexual harassment, for example, cops and white-collar types are sent to 'diversity training', which is a *positive* step, however inadequate (due to the *institutional* nature of racism, sexism, etc., manifested in society).

If the state can be maneuvered into doing some of our political work *for* us (by taking liberal-type steps in specific instances), then that would be a *good* thing, though ultimately inadequate, of course.

I don't have a bit of problem with diversity training and whatever else...where I draw the line is on involuntary commitment under the present status-quo. I said that the fascists should be rounded up and sent to reeducation facilities...under socialism. With all respect, the examples listed above just aren't the same thing at all. If the people don't want to do their diversity training or whatever their employer mandates than they can just quit. But I swear to god that if we grant the bourgeois state the power to round people up...when the time comes for revolution they WILL use that power against us, just as historically they would've used it against abolitionists, suffragists, civil rights, activists, LGBTQ, etc.

When it comes to the fash, I say the people can handle that shit ourselves. The people can drive them out. We don't need the state for shit because they are NOT on our side will never, ever be. In fact, if communist revolution were imminent they would not only refuse to do our political work as it relates to fascism, they would conspire against us...they would even hand the keys of the state apparatus over to the fascists before they'd let us win.

Within the anti-fascist struggle, violence should always an option. It's one tool within the available tool set. Any legalistic approach is a naive one. The bourgeois authorities are part of the problem, not the solution.
Especially in the US now, any fascist ambitions to rule the streets should be stifled from the beginning by all means necessary.

220px-Good-night-wide-pride.gif

Yea, I agree with this. Anytime fascism rears it's head on the streets they have to be met with resistance - but it's not because I am afraid of their power. Let's not kid ourselves...these guys aren't taking over anything anytime soon. I think the most important thing is to send a message to marginalized communities that there are people who have their back. I think the thing that bothers me about the whole thing is that I have the ability to see the youth and class-status of these guys and wonder how in the world did they ever think that this would be a good thing. I don't know how one gets to that point where they think that hate is the answer. I don't know why I am so bothered by this in particular...maybe it's the pictures and seeing their young faces up close and shit. I just think the whole thing is so very tragic. This whole thing and it's aftermath is completely unlike anything I've ever experienced before in my lifetime.

But I also understand that we have to defend those with no defense but I wish it didn't have to be like this. I wish this was a society where everyone without capital/mop were on the same side...but won't happen as long as fascists keep terrorizing people of color. They might as well show up to the next event gift wrapped with a big bow ribbon addressed to the bourgeoisie. So fucking stupid and counterproductive.

I really don't know what it's going to take or what's going to happen. I'm just fucking sick of everything.

[The Intransigent Faction]

Or, as with anti-fascist actions in general, it can put those with power (employers, Trump, etc.) *on-the-spot*, forcing them to deal with the larger political environment, which happens to include fascist-minded repression against social minorities, and those on the far-left who can physically counter fascist sentiments.

Fair point. In a way, I can't think of a more beneficial way for the radical left to be forced into the spotlight than through a nationalist President's condemnation of their lack of tolerance for fascist bullshit.

The more people realize "Hey, communists really ARE the ones actually standing most effectively against fascism," the better.

EDIT: Something like this, however...

CJFE is deeply concerned by the alleged assault on Global News journalist Mike Armstrong and cameraman Jean-Vincent Verveille at an August 20th demonstration against far-right group La Meute in Quebec City. Armstrong was reportedly shoved down stairs, while Verveille’s camera was smashed on the ground in the same altercation. Armstrong stated on Twitter that the assailant was from a “a violent faction of anti-racists.” Armstrong spoke to CJFE by telephone on Monday from the Roxham Road border crossing where he was reporting on refugee families entering Canada.

Mike Armstrong ✔ @ArmstrongGN
Pushed around and our camera was smashed... and the group we were supposed to be covering hasn't even stepped out of the parking garage.
5:25 PM - Aug 20, 2017
30 30 Replies 80 80 Retweets 65 65 likes

Assaults on media workers erode press freedom rights and undermine the critical role journalists play in strengthening democracy. During periods of social unrest, journalists play a crucial role as observers and disseminators of up-to-date news on these public interest issues, and thus must be allowed freedom to conduct their work. Journalists also work to gather and publish evidence which can help to support demonstrators claims of police brutality or repression.

zGlobal_News_camera_grabbed__smashed_on_ground_dur ing_heated_protests_in_Quebec_City__Watch_News_Vid eos_Online_-_Google_Chrome.jpg

A masked demonstrator approaches a Global News camera at an August 20, 2017 Quebec City rally against far-right group La Meute in a bid to prevent them from filming. Image Source: Global News.

Competing protests between far-right and anti-fascist groups are taking place with increasing regularity across North America. In May 2017 a CJFE staff member was assaulted by far-right groups while filming at an anti-Islam rally in Toronto. These events are matters of urgent public interest, and it is essential that Canadians have access to accurate, reliable information from reporters on the ground. That information will dry up if journalists become targets of violence at these events, depriving Canadians of essential context and impoverishing public understanding.

“I have covered a lot of riots,” Armstrong said to CJFE, listing several noteworthy demonstrations and also highlighting his experience reporting from conflict zones including Afghanistan, Ukraine and Haiti. “The more you speak to me, the more I can get your point of view across accurately.” he said. Initially believing the rally to be peaceful, he stated that he had considered bringing his children.


pasted_image_0.pngArmstrong also reported that following the assault, his colleague Jean-Vincent Verveille received a threat on Twitter from an account with obvious ties to far-right groups.

Street protests are an essential form of free expression, and an indispensable tactic to challenge racist and overtly fascist political movements. Since the events of Charlottesville, many newsrooms have devoted increased resources to covering the opposition to hate groups. This in turn will result in much more contact between demonstrators and journalists in the future. It is the duty of everyone who values democratic principles and basic freedoms to challenge hateful ideology. Those engaging in this essential work must remember that the free press has always been a crucial part in the victory of civil rights and social justice movements, and always will be.

A spokesperson from the anti-racist coalition which organized the protest could not be reached for comment.

It's interesting that the "group we were supposed to be covering" is the fascist demonstrators.
That said, a more organized and disciplined movement in place of ad-hoc reactive counterdemonstrations could avoid incidents like this, which aren't necessarily helpful.

[BIXX]

I don't have a bit of problem with diversity training and whatever else...where I draw the line is on involuntary commitment under the present status-quo. I said that the fascists should be rounded up and sent to reeducation facilities...under socialism. With all respect, the examples listed above just aren't the same thing at all. If the people don't want to do their diversity training or whatever their employer mandates than they can just quit. But I swear to god that if we grant the bourgeois state the power to round people up...when the time comes for revolution they WILL use that power against us, just as historically they would've used it against abolitionists, suffragists, civil rights, activists, LGBTQ, etc.

Do you seriously want the socialist state to have that power? I'd fight that socialism to the day I die.

[ckaihatsu]

I don't have a bit of problem with diversity training and whatever else...where I draw the line is on involuntary commitment under the present status-quo. I said that the fascists should be rounded up and sent to reeducation facilities...under socialism. With all respect, the examples listed above just aren't the same thing at all. If the people don't want to do their diversity training or whatever their employer mandates than they can just quit. But I swear to god that if we grant the bourgeois state the power to round people up...when the time comes for revolution they WILL use that power against us, just as historically they would've used it against abolitionists, suffragists, civil rights, activists, LGBTQ, etc.

Yes, good distinction (voluntary vs. involuntary).

When it comes to the fash, I say the people can handle that shit ourselves. The people can drive them out. We don't need the state for shit because they are NOT on our side will never, ever be. In fact, if communist revolution were imminent they would not only refuse to do our political work as it relates to fascism, they would conspire against us...they would even hand the keys of the state apparatus over to the fascists before they'd let us win.

Yes.

Armstrong stated on Twitter that the assailant was from a “a violent faction of anti-racists.”

This *is* curious -- did the anti-racists mistakenly think that they were attacking a *far-right* media group, as with this other example -- ?

A masked demonstrator approaches a Global News camera at an August 20, 2017 Quebec City rally against far-right group La Meute in a bid to prevent them from filming.

I'm trying hard to imagine what reason the anti-racists could possibly have had for denying routine media coverage.

I think, though, that this shows that even press coverage is not necessarily 'neutral', and that the liberal 'free speech' rights-attitude is not necessarily the standard to hew to, in our best interests -- *most* of the time it is, though.

Journalists also work to gather and publish evidence which can help to support demonstrators claims of police brutality or repression.

And this is just sad -- journalism having to 'sell' itself to the left in a bid to justify its role in society.


---

I don't have a bit of problem with diversity training and whatever else...where I draw the line is on involuntary commitment under the present status-quo. I said that the fascists should be rounded up and sent to reeducation facilities...under socialism. With all respect, the examples listed above just aren't the same thing at all. If the people don't want to do their diversity training or whatever their employer mandates than they can just quit. But I swear to god that if we grant the bourgeois state the power to round people up...when the time comes for revolution they WILL use that power against us, just as historically they would've used it against abolitionists, suffragists, civil rights, activists, LGBTQ, etc.

Do you seriously want the socialist state to have that power? I'd fight that socialism to the day I die.

I think we should *want* the socialist state to have that power, but I'm more concerned with the real-world *logistics* of such -- 're-education facilities' sounds a lot like *jail*, and the *staffing* of such jail-like facilities would be an inherently *political* task, and not a material-productive one. The revolutionary workers would have to set up a social *institution* of some kind for the organization of personnel to staff these facilities, and there would have to be a collective, but decisive, decision-making process over who is sent to re-education programs, and who isn't, and why.

So basically it would be 'messy', but I could readily see that worldwide conditions of protracted open class struggle could objectively *call* for such impositions of revolutionary 'authority', as for the use of re-education facilities. I just don't feel confident that such fixed-institution-type practices would be logistically clean or worth the socio-political organization that such institutions would require for their functioning.

Maybe more-of a 'quarantine'-type approach would be better, but that, too, would be a fixed institution of sorts, with various kinds of messy overhead, as well.

[The Intransigent Faction]

Rabble.ca has a great article on the media's narrative regarding "violent counter-demonstrators." It's mostly about this weekend's Quebec City demonstrations, but it touches on Charlottesville, as well:

When Donald Trump condemned "both sides" for violence in Charlottesville, he was widely, and correctly, condemned. Heather Heyer was murdered and 19 others were injured. Racists were armed. Police strategically sat back. It was a horrifying image of "two sides" in confrontation.

Naively, I thought that perhaps the media was learning to get past this two sides fallacy. Nazi punching is back in vogue. Racists' identities are being exposed and they're losing their jobs. The violent rhetoric of these groups is finally leading to consequences. But until we puncture through the mainstream consensus that there are "two sides" to every story, progressives will never win the air wars.

That's because access to free speech isn't equal. It takes nearly nothing for our events and our rallies to be ignored, sensationalized, obscured or ruined.

Today, the mainstream media consensus is that anti-immigrant, white supremacist group La Meute was the true winner in Quebec City yesterday because a handful of people smashed glass and threw patio chairs. I watched it happen as the police stood back and allowed it.

Not far from where this happened are sons, widows, friends and neighbours of six men who were murdered by an individual inspired by the kind of anti-immigrant and Islamophobic beliefs spouted by La Meute.

Unlike Heather Heyer, they weren't killed while they were protesting. They were simply living and specifically, praying. Their very existence was resistance and they died in a space that is sacred and holy, one where no one should ever feel threatened or face violence.

Survivors of that attack still struggle with that horror. Families remain in mourning. Racists continue to send threats and violent messages to the mosques in town. And yet, when La Meute marches and anti-racists march against, all of this context vanishes.

The events yesterday shouldn't have happened in the way they did. When the police declared the rally illegal, they intentionally didn't act on their declaration. No one was arrested because they were participating in an illegal march. When a dumpster was set on fire and glass thrown towards fully-protected police, police did the bare minimum to make sure no one was hit. They didn't put out the dumpster fire. They didn't dispatch firefighters. They didn't arrest anyone for vandalism. They allowed it to happen and journalists flocked to the chaos.

Declaring the rally illegal was not intended to keep the peace. It was an act of PR. Today, the police have promised that they will be arresting people perhaps later on, maybe tomorrow.

When Jaggi Singh was arrested, police knew that the cameras would turn to him, that he would absorb the news. Never mind that he was released without charge the same day, on the other side of town. The stories were already published. Don MacPherson at The Gazette congratulated Singh on Twitter for handing victory to La Meute, as if Singh had begged the police himself to arrest him. As if his arrest wasn't an egregious attack on his free speech.

Police tear gassed protesters. They chose a violent tactic meant to injure protesters, rather than simply arrest and ticket people for protesting during an illegal rally.

When La Meute finally emerged from the parking garage, their protest was "peaceful" and "legal." Perhaps it helped that some of their placards expressed solidarity and support for the RCMP.

Journalist Desmond Cole tweeted: "until more people understand that these white supremacist marches are a form of violence, we're in big trouble," and really, that is the heart of this struggle. It is impossible for La Meute to have a "peaceful" demonstration when they're calling for an end to immigration and the maintenance of a white Quebec, and impossible for La Meute to have had a victory yesterday, without journalists handing that victory to them directly.

To argue that La Meute won requires a few ingredients. You first must believe that they have furthered the cause of a white Quebec. That, in the eyes of Quebecers, immigration is less popular today than it was on Saturday. Second, you must believe that hiding out in a parking garage for several hours, is a marker of a successful rally. Third, you must ignore that La Meute was outnumbered, somewhere between 3:1 and 5:1 by anti-racist protesters. Fourth, you must uncritically carry La Meute's own PR as news, while you denigrate the "other side" for being violent.

Last March, when anti-racist protesters (me included) took over a La Meute rally despite being outnumbered, the media didn't declare that we "had won." We were simply present. We did "everything right" and no journalist declared us the victor.

The real violence in this city goes only one way: from skinhead groups who post online that they're training for street fighting, to the new white supremacist boxing club that they're setting up. From attacks at mosques to racist banner drops. From the "peaceful, lawful" racist rally on Saturday that went unchallenged to the fight against a Muslim cemetery. It's as if the mainstream press and politicians are so far down the vortex of white supremacy that they can't think clearly.

Or, that they benefit so much from white supremacy that they cannot untie themselves from it to conjure up a sober assessment of it.

Heather Heyer may have triggered a North American reflection and fightback against fascism but what has been the result of the murder of six racialized Muslim men? Have we managed to not only have learned nothing, but instead sanitized the mundane hatred of a "peaceful, legal" rally?

The fallacy of left-wing violence is that it creates this narrative: progressives are to blame for the rise of extreme right-wing sentiment. That, if only the broad left had been quieter, larger, less aggressive, more peaceful or whatever, La Meute would not have been able to "declare victory." Maybe this makes sense from an ahistorical, contextless position. Maybe this makes sense from a position that assumes that journalists cover events fairly and proportionate to what happens, but both are fallacy. The left will never be peaceful enough, nice enough or lawful enough because we are made illegal or we are marginalized the second the state has the chance.

And worse, for the hundreds of people who rallied yesterday "peacefully," without incident, their presence and voices have been erased. Their actions rendered futile. If I worked as a mainstream journalist, perhaps I'd lay the blame at the foot of the Black Bloc. But it was orchestrated to go down the way it did.

The state wants us to stay home next time. We know better than that, though. We just need to be larger and better organized next time. And the next time after that. And resist the narrative that we are ourselves to blame for the hatred and racism that we fight.

[TomLeftist]

GLF: Like I wrote in another comment in this site. It is really hard to answer that question, because most of us are not psycho-analyists professionals like Erich Fromm, Freud, Bertorlt Bretch, Marx, etc. But I think you are right. It is anti-scientific to generalize and to think that every white blond person with blue eyes and green eyes are nazi KKK killers.

But at the same time I advise all blacks, all latinos, all muslims, all asians, and all leftist whites who hate racists, to get into a power gaining, self-defense program, and to turn into a Rambo, an Alexander the Great, every time they go out to the streets. Because in the book The Prince by Machiavelli, it says that it is better to be feared than to be loved. I know that we should love all humans. But if blacks, latinos, muslims do not want to die, they better wear a sort of powerful physical appearance and violent appearnce by a weight training program, a book-reading program of aggressive literature and personal defense program.

The USA is not Cuba, it is not Argentina, it is not China, it is not Europe, it is not Africa. The USA is a hell of a white barbarian viking race hateful white vikings barbarian people every where. Even the Indians immigrants who own gas stations are forced to own weapons to protect themselves from the white european race, who behave like Vikings

I'm probably going to be ostracized from revleft for this, but I don't care. This is something that's been making me sad. I've been on youtube, twitter, and other sites and pretty much laughing at those silly little Nazis crying about how everyone's being mean to them. Sending them hatemail, threatening them and getting them fired and shit. It's pretty much them against the whole country at this point which I think is a very good and healthy thing. But then I started to kinda feel bad about that. We've never had anything like this before in Charlottesville with the doxing and shit, and I'm finding out that I don't really feel at all comfortable with it. Is it just my nature to not like seeing people who are outnumbered being attacked? I would never defend the far-right on the streets - I would kick their little asses no matter how "outnumbered" they were, but for some reason this just feels different to me.

I talked to my partner about this and he agrees but says that "the people have a right to express themselves" in the fallout. He said that I shouldn't feel sorry for them no matter how outnumbered they are and that I should feel sorry the victims. And that they better learn a lesson.

Outnumbered has nothing to do with it, though. Trump is the most hated man on the planet and I don't feel any need to defend his dumb ass. The bourgeoisie is vastly outnumbered, too, and I dream of war on them. It's not that they're outnumbered - Nazis should always be outnumbered. Yet I don't have an explanation for it... I don't know what's wrong with me. Am I turning into Chomsky?

I can honestly say that outside the context of class-struggle, there isn't a single class of person or a single type of person that I hate. I wish that everyone of those deluded boys would've been rounded up in a padded wagon and sent to a reeducation facility. But we don't have that. And if we're being honest...we'll probably never have it. This is liberal rule, and we're going to be under it for the next thousand years and there's nothing that any of us can ever do to stop it.

I just hate that there's so much pain and hate in this world.

[TomLeftist]

Be a warrior like comrade Mike Tyson and comrade Mohamed Ali !!

ZombieMarx: YOu are right, what we need is a sort of immoral violent diabolical left, if the right-wing is immoral, violent and diabolical. I don't understand why can't the left-wing be immoral, evil, violent and diabolical. We should destroy, and crush all nazis, all racists. Machiavelli said that if you want to destroy an enemy, you should destroy him completely and very powerful so that the enemy would think it twice before attacking you back.

I've noticed the rise of road-rage, in many USA cities, and many people, usually right-wingers with big vehicles think that people who drive smaller cars are passive and weak. They are pieces of scared trash, they get scared pretty easy. We should not be scared of anybody, not even of Caligula, Hitler, Mussolini. Pinochet, Trump Bush or any stupid piece of redneck hillbillies trash. That's why I advice a program of physical power for leftists, the philosophers of ancient Greece and ancient Rome gave a lot of importance to the diet, the body and the physiology.

We are soldiers, fighters, warriors. People who choose to be marxists, leftists are warriors. That's why even Bernie Sanders is a warrior, even Jill Stein, even Amy Goodman is a warrior, Sean Penn is a warrior. I remember that he punched a camera guy many years ago.

But anyways all leftists should be warriors, fighters, gain physical strength and military skills, and be warriors, 24 hours a day, 365 days per year

Within the anti-fascist struggle, violence should always an option. It's one tool within the available tool set. Any legalistic approach is a naive one. The bourgeois authorities are part of the problem, not the solution.
Especially in the US now, any fascist ambitions to rule the streets should be stifled from the beginning by all means necessary.

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I forgot that a great idea for my KKK Nazi friends, who i love so much, is to spray their faces with Sulfuric Acid

[Ele'ill]

I'm trying hard to imagine what reason the anti-racists could possibly have had for denying routine media coverage.

I think, though, that this shows that even press coverage is not necessarily 'neutral', and that the liberal 'free speech' rights-attitude is not necessarily the standard to hew to, in our best interests -- *most* of the time it is, though.

Most of the time, the media spins events to preserve order because they're a part of that order, their existence depends on it, and because they can get juicy behind the scenes interviews and access to breaking reports at a later time when they play nice with power. How an anarchist or communist could ever come to a conclusion that media at large portrays an accurate account of events is alarming. Have those of you with this opinion considered that the various antifascist actions around the US (and world) currently have forced the narrative and that without berkeley on fire, spencer getting punched, direct action during the ruling order's pageants and uncontrollable revolt following it, clashes with the police, is the narrative that the media has tried to spin and continues to try and spin but can't because of the number of people, and the diversity of those people involved? That trump's presidency and fascism threatens the current established order? That cnn throttling the presidency is really funny but not a part of us. That 'the media is usually a good thing' is a pretty dumb thing to say and that the conventional media isn't what's being used but instead it's a network of dispatches and communications closer resembling those found during war, and that's what's helping people hit the streets in attack, both against the fascists, the police, the current established order, and ruling order generally.

[BIXX]

Be a warrior like comrade Mike Tyson and comrade Mohamed Ali !!

ZombieMarx: YOu are right, what we need is a sort of immoral violent diabolical left, if the right-wing is immoral, violent and diabolical. I don't understand why can't the left-wing be immoral, evil, violent and diabolical. We should destroy, and crush all nazis, all racists. Machiavelli said that if you want to destroy an enemy, you should destroy him completely and very powerful so that the enemy would think it twice before attacking you back.

I've noticed the rise of road-rage, in many USA cities, and many people, usually right-wingers with big vehicles think that people who drive smaller cars are passive and weak. They are pieces of scared trash, they get scared pretty easy. We should not be scared of anybody, not even of Caligula, Hitler, Mussolini. Pinochet, Trump Bush or any stupid piece of redneck hillbillies trash. That's why I advice a program of physical power for leftists, the philosophers of ancient Greece and ancient Rome gave a lot of importance to the diet, the body and the physiology.

We are soldiers, fighters, warriors. People who choose to be marxists, leftists are warriors. That's why even Bernie Sanders is a warrior, even Jill Stein, even Amy Goodman is a warrior, Sean Penn is a warrior. I remember that he punched a camera guy many years ago.

But anyways all leftists should be warriors, fighters, gain physical strength and military skills, and be warriors, 24 hours a day, 365 days per year





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I forgot that a great idea for my KKK Nazi friends, who i love so much, is to spray their faces with Sulfuric Acid

This all sounds like a fantasy that has no basis in the reality of what communism is and is more based around being some sort of superhero. And furthermore a lot of the people you reference as people we should respect as "warriors" are real shit and not communist in any way.