Do the Charlottesville Nazis deserve violence after the fact?

**TomLeftist** · 25th August 2017, 23:35

GLF: I am not pessimist about mankind, but however I think that the cause of why the right-wing, The Republican Party, The Democratic Party is so powerful. And will probably will continue in power for decades to come, is that left-wingers, ultra-left wingers in USA behave like right-wingers, even in this forum, they cannot contain their narcissism, sectarianism, and their intolerance against other leftist, ultra-leftist comrades like John Nada, who called me a "troll" just for writing my own personal opinions about how can blacks and oppressed defend themselves against white racists

These radical leftists, the sectarian leftists like John Nada, and the people who write comments in the website World Socialist Website are unfriendly, even evil and abusive against other leftists. The trotskists of World Socialist Web Site were even happy that Hugo Chavez died.

These people are destroying the left, because when the oppressed try to join radical communist parties and realize that the majority of radical leftist parties are full of assholes, mean people. They then go back to voting for Republicans and Democrats

Originally Posted by GLF

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'action taken as life in the present, and not separate from it'.

I'm probably being dense. Just the same, can you please elaborate?

I find it very encouraging. I would probably guess that if they did a poll right now and the only options were, "Do you like Capitalism, Yes or No", over 50% would say no.

The only problem is that these people think that there are already solution in the works and/or being pushed for in the form of mixed-economical reforms. What they don't know is that because these so-called "solutions" have no LTV basis, fundamental inequality will just morph along accordingly persisting in different forms. And the public ignorance here is a failure on the part of the left.

**TomLeftist** · 25th August 2017, 23:56

John Nada: Who or what gives you the right to order me what I should write or not, you piece of crap. If you were here I would force you to respect my arguments and opinions. But since you are not here, I am not able to punch you real hard and destroy your teeths and your ribs !!

Originally Posted by John Nada

TomLeftist is a sockpuppet of a user that's been banned repeatedly over years. I think they went by TrotskyistMarxist and AmilarCarbral . For some reason, they keep coming back with the same act and play ignorant each time. Not even an entertaining or original troll either.

- - - Updated - - -

ckaihatsu: We are doomed waiting for a change toward communism, because of the extreme hatred, extreme narcissism, group-narcissism, tendency-narcissism, party narcissism that exists within the radical left. I thought that creating a united ultra-leftist front made of the different ultra-leftist tendencies was easy. But the leaders of the ultra-leftist parties are arrogant and stuck-up and will not put away their ideological purities in order to destroy the capitalist system. They are too proud, too arrogant for that. So iam affraid that we will have to suck the free market capitalist system for a long time

Originally Posted by ckaihatsu

Yes, and well-said.

Personally I'd welcome any efforts in the here-and-now to 'hash-out' as much as possible -- meaning potential, realistic *logistics* -- for the time of proletarian revolution and beyond, since, as you're pointing out, it's also a 'selling point' so-to-speak. People should be given *options* as to *how* approaches may be done for taking the whole thing off of the market system, since that would leave a situational vacuum without alternatives being spelled-out. (That's been a major motivation for my efforts at diagrams, too, particularly the 'labor credits' formulation.)

This is a good point as well -- while time is always against us, we don't want to be too hasty, risking ending up in a *substitutionist* role "on behalf" of the working class, when it's supposed to be a whole-class thing.

**BIXX** · 26th August 2017, 02:17

Originally Posted by TomLeftist

John Nada: Who or what gives you the right to order me what I should write or not, you piece of crap. If you were here I would force you to respect my arguments and opinions. But since you are not here, I am not able to punch you real hard and destroy your teeths and your ribs !!

Lol, you sound like you have the "warrior spirit" TomLeftist, you sound very tough. You wanna see how tough I am?

Btw, anyone have the leftist version of this? I saw it posted here way back but couldn't find it.

**TomLeftist** · 26th August 2017, 02:22

I wanna be a communist superhero and not an utopian communist like you are, thinking that getting drunk on coffee, and soft drinks, while offending all right-wingers, while bashing and trashing Glenn Beck, Donald Trump from your bedroom will destroy capitalism.

I respect your choice of staying at home and relying only on theory because you can buy and read 1000 communist books but without weapons without military action you will not be able to overthrow any capitalist state

If you think you can overthrow capitalism with books and just theories, all out from the comfort of your air-conditioned bedroom. Try to do that, after you do that, call me so I can get free medical care from your new communist government

Originally Posted by BIXX

This all sounds like a fantasy that has no basis in the reality of what communism is and is more based around being some sort of superhero. And furthermore a lot of the people you reference as people we should respect as "warriors" are real shit and not communist in any way.

**BIXX** · 26th August 2017, 02:29

This is a theory forum, we aren't allowed to talk about weapons/militaristic organizing etc... for very valid reasons (legal concerns). If you were a "communist warrior" you'd know that, and keep your trap shut about weapons and military action. Why would you want to project what you were going to do in the first place if you were doing that sort of shit?

**TomLeftist** · 26th August 2017, 02:30

This song is for my brother BIXX, John Nada and some comrades-brothers that i might had differences here in theory, but in reality we should be together for ever and ever until the communist revolution !!

BIXX: You are my brother, my father, my cousin, my family !!

You and John Nada are my brothers, even if he might have offended me, and I offended youj and him.

Me and you fighting is not smart, is not good. You and me have to be united not enemies. The whole ultra-left is already too divided and the only powerful left right now is Bernie Sanders and The Green Party.

You, me John Nada just had some differences but you, me and everybody here is my family.

I LOVE YOU, JOHN NADA AND ALL THE PEOPLE HERE IN REVLEFT

Originally Posted by BIXX

Lol, you sound like you have the "warrior spirit" TomLeftist, you sound very tough. You wanna see how tough I am?

Btw, anyone have the leftist version of this? I saw it posted here way back but couldn't find it.

**BIXX** · 26th August 2017, 09:06

Originally Posted by TomLeftist

This song is for my brother BIXX, John Nada and some comrades-brothers that i might had differences here in theory, but in reality we should be together for ever and ever until the communist revolution !!

BIXX: You are my brother, my father, my cousin, my family !!

You and John Nada are my brothers, even if he might have offended me, and I offended youj and him.

Me and you fighting is not smart, is not good. You and me have to be united not enemies. The whole ultra-left is already too divided and the only powerful left right now is Bernie Sanders and The Green Party.

You, me John Nada just had some differences but you, me and everybody here is my family.

I LOVE YOU, JOHN NADA AND ALL THE PEOPLE HERE IN REVLEFT

And for you, my communist brother TomLeftist, I have a song by as well.

**ckaihatsu** · 26th August 2017, 13:26

Originally Posted by TomLeftist

ckaihatsu: We are doomed waiting for a change toward communism, because of the extreme hatred, extreme narcissism, group-narcissism, tendency-narcissism, party narcissism that exists within the radical left. I thought that creating a united ultra-leftist front made of the different ultra-leftist tendencies was easy. But the leaders of the ultra-leftist parties are arrogant and stuck-up and will not put away their ideological purities in order to destroy the capitalist system. They are too proud, too arrogant for that. So iam affraid that we will have to suck the free market capitalist system for a long time

Well, I *hear* you, and I certainly tend to agree -- many, once they find themselves in and around politics, take on the *celebrity* culture / 'community' that attaches-itself-to / accompanies the realm of politics. In this way the political culture *devolves* from being about revolutionary politics and goals, to a diffused-interest spectacle of personages and hangers-on, because people of this sort are more interested in themselves in the here-and-now rather than moving society past this stubborn status-quo, to a world where social life would be entirely unencumbered and directly-supportive for all.

Radicals, yourself excepted, tend to face towards the nationalist 'middle' of the political spectrum, and copy its privileged social dynamics for their own enclaves, imitating its personal-power status structures and patronage networks, as a lifestyle 'alternative' to the everyday capitalist economy -- understandable but disastrous.

I myself tend to call this dynamic 'tribalism', though semantically it's not the best term to use because of obvious default racial associations and historical baggage, but it's tough to find a better-descriptive term, unfortunately.

G.U.T.S.U.C., Individualism - Tribalism

**GLF** · 26th August 2017, 16:29

Originally Posted by TomLeftist

I dont understand how can many people, even leftists be so anti-fighting, anti-warrior spirit. Maybe the excess of moralism, religious education, family values education, social ethics, institutional educational systems, laws etc. All that have made people hate violence. I don't understand why people think that violence is wrong.

Violence is wrong because it hurts people, Tom. Our fight is against institutions and conceptions, and extends into the physical arena only when absolutely necessary.

If as communists we go around hurting people whose lives we ourselves arbitrarily deem forfeit or a hindrance to our 'cause', then by imposing our own authority we actually invalidate our authority in the cause for which we fight (the elimination of authority itself). In other words, we lose any moral high-ground and end up with nothing better to offer society than the present status-quo. Which leads me to the next point:

Originally Posted by TomLeftist

I wanna be a communist superhero

Being a communist isn't about personal strength or will to power - hyper individualistic and fascistic processes of thought. It's about inspiring mass-action through political agitation and the fostering of class-consciousness. The great vanguard of the people educate and agitate first and foremost - it's not our prerogative to lash out in violence nor rule. It's the great masses themselves whose strength and power we embrace, and it's the great masses themselves that must play the leading role in the coming changes.

**GLF** · 28th August 2017, 04:55

Since we're talking about nazis, I have a question: why do people differentiate between white separatism, white nationalism, and white supremacism? Has anyone noticed people doing this?

I don't understand it. Why would you want segregation (white separatism) if not for believing whites to be superior? Why would you want a whites only nation (white nationalism) if not for believing whites to be superior? It's obvious that the only reason these people would want these things is if they feel that something of great value is lost through miscegenation. Even opposition to multiculturalism and immigration are products of white supremacist thinking, if not outright white supremacism.

Yet more and more, people are giving in to the white supremacists and calling them by their chosen designation. I've seen interviews where a white supremacist takes exception to being called a white supremacist yet the interviewer just concedes the point when they should challenge them immediately. I believe it's a big mistake to make any sort of distinction between white supremacists, white separatists, white nationalists. And that more and more people are doing it - even Wikipedia makes these distinctions - is very dangerous.

**ckaihatsu** · 3rd September 2017, 13:48

Jacksonville fight to remove the Confederate statues continues

By Mike Todd

Jacksonville, FL - Around 200 people gathered for six hours at the August 22 city council meeting to speak about removing Confederate monuments and names from public spaces. The week before, in response to the white supremacist terrorism in Charlottesville, Virginia, Jacksonville City Council President Brosche said she wanted to inventory all Confederate monuments, markers, and memorials so they can be moved off public property and into museums or other settings, where they can be “historically contextualized.” When her press release went public, death threats started flooding into her email from Confederate sympathizers.

TakeEmDownJax has led the way in the fight to remove the Confederacy from Jacksonville, uniting multiple local groups, including the Jacksonville Community Action Committee, Veterans for Peace Jax, Young Workers of Jacksonville, and the Women’s March Jacksonville Chapter. The Tampa TakeEmDown coalition drove four hours to join the fight. This united effort was successful in outnumbering their opposition.

The arguments in support of keeping the monuments came from people repeatedly trying to convince everyone in the room they personally weren’t racist. One woman informed the council, “My daughter’s best friend is black, I’m not racist, but I am of my heritage and these monuments should stay.” This was easily refuted by point out what the white supremacists did in Charlottesville defending those monuments.

Syd Eastwin let everyone know, “Just the fact that this is still something up for debate in the year 2017 by this city council, is a clear sign people care about dead racist statues more than Black lives.” The heated statements continued with the opposition involved until the last quarter of the night when the pro-Confederates were outnumbered byTakeEmDownJax’s supporters.

This united effort to remove the symbols of the Confederacy from public spaces continues to fight in the form of direct action events and call-in days to the mayor and city council members. The next open forum Jacksonville City Council meeting is on will address this issue Sept. 12.

Read more News and Views from the Peoples Struggle at http://www.fightbacknews.org. You can write to us at [email protected]

**redz** · 5th September 2017, 01:16

Multiracial working class must fight the Alt-Right

6_3-img_RAN_Portland-Labor-Against-Fascists-Painters-Union-banner-20170604_Painters-n-Drywallers.jpg

https://realityanalysisnotes.wordpre...the-alt-right/

From the link ...

Revolutionary Marxists are convinced that to carry forward an effective – and ultimately successful – struggle against fascism, white supremacy, and the emergent Alt-Right requires waging a vigorous effort to mobilize the multiracial, multi-ethnic working class.

This means, say Marxists, reaching out not only to organized workers in trade unions, but also unorganized workers in non-unionized worksites as well. In this regard, it’s critical for militant socialists, Antifa activists, and other radical leftists, where possible, to seek unionized jobs themselves. This opens opportunities to pursue efforts to win union members’ support for anti-racist, anti-fascist, class-struggle, and pro-revolutionary positions and actions by such unions.

An influx of radical leftists into organized labor could also help build support among multiracial unionized workers for a fighting class-struggle program.

**Ele'ill** · 5th September 2017, 01:33

what does that article have to do with the thread

**perardua** · 11th September 2017, 09:43

TomLeftist: You speak as though fascism is some sort of mental disease. More likely, reactionism is the default position of ordinary people - in the abscence of class consciousness that is where you will land usually. And if you do believe this, why is marxist theory of concern to you? If reactionaries cannot be reasoned with, why assume that anyone else can - including other leftists?

Meaning: It must be assumed of every person one meets that you both have the same capacity for reason and comprehension. Indeed if this is not the case, it very soon bears itself out in the discussion itself. But it is the actual discussion that is the point, the particularities of your persons are secondary. A fascist does not think like this, they will say "He's a jew, so naturally everything he says secretly serves jew interests." or "He has low IQ, so everything he says is disqualified by default, regardless of what he is actually saying."

Obviously, fascist violence should be confronted and subdued uncompromisingly wherever it turns up, but that is a different situation. A difference in degree, at least.

The way you frame this sounds way too much as if wearing the right colors is enough to guarantee that you can trust others' opinions are on the level.

I know many communists hate to talk about "human nature", but human nature is only nonsense when it is used to mean something that determines us and rules over us. Again, a racist will say "Well, we're all a bit racist, it's just the way we evolved." A radical will admit that yes we probably are a bit racist by default, but that this is no more an inevitable part of us than anything else, it can start to be critiqued and transformed. But to begin transformation, one has to admit the problem exists. And racism is just an expression of what we might call the primal level of in-group/out-group mentality. Which again is obviously not something fixed, the in-group can be expanded and so on. But the tendency is with us always, in every situation. It's just a way that our nervous systems conceptualize the world, that we have to learn to manage and work with. I often see a curious blindness among leftists that they are as prone as anyone to tribethink, vanity, personal pettiness and so on, even though the history of their own movement bears this out more than well. But I digress.

I agree to an extent that revolutionaries need to cultivate a warrior spirit. But remember that "politics is war by other means". Actual carnage results from an escalation of a conflict that could and should have been solved several steps beforehand. I'm not saying that such things should be avoided at any cost, but it seems that you immediately seek this conclusion. There are more ways to be a warrior than in a fistfight or in the trenches. The reason why The Art of War is such an enduring text is that its principles are applicable in any area of life.

**ckaihatsu** · 21st September 2017, 18:59

Originally Posted by ckaihatsu

I think we should *want* the socialist state to have that power, but I'm more concerned with the real-world *logistics* of such -- 're-education facilities' sounds a lot like *jail*, and the *staffing* of such jail-like facilities would be an inherently *political* task, and not a material-productive one. The revolutionary workers would have to set up a social *institution* of some kind for the organization of personnel to staff these facilities, and there would have to be a collective, but decisive, decision-making process over who is sent to re-education programs, and who isn't, and why.

So basically it would be 'messy', but I could readily see that worldwide conditions of protracted open class struggle could objectively *call* for such impositions of revolutionary 'authority', as for the use of re-education facilities. I just don't feel confident that such fixed-institution-type practices would be logistically clean or worth the socio-political organization that such institutions would require for their functioning.

Maybe more-of a 'quarantine'-type approach would be better, but that, too, would be a fixed institution of sorts, with various kinds of messy overhead, as well.

After some additional thought on this topic I came up with a possible approach: Counterrevolutionaries could be 'quarantined' inside of existing *skyscrapers*, with an outer wall and a motion-detecting *perimeter* well within the exterior wall. There could be a conical-shaped *netting* around each skyscraper (and within the motion-detecting perimeter), flared outward, so that anyone falling on the outside of each skyscraper -- for whatever reason -- would have a soft landing and would slide downward and outward, triggering the perimeter. (And/or they could just re-enter the building and resume "regular" life there.)

The idea is that this measure would be *temporary*, with all of the amenities of life and living provided-for daily inside such a structure, so that such people under 'collective house-arrest' would feel relatively comfortable in the interim until the proletarian revolution would be completed. Doubtlessly there would also be maintenance-type tasks within each building, as well, to keep people busy if they wanted.

Security cameras on every floor could broadcast their live video feeds out onto the Internet, so that informal voluntary revolutionary participation could be done by anyone, watching the various feeds to keep track of things there. And, derived from such Internet-based involvement could be the makings of an organic mass voluntary participation -- an 'emergent' 'institution' overseeing and tending-to each given skyscraper, with proceedings ongoing on a RevLeft-type discussion board for cooperation and decisive actions given whatever situation.

Perhaps the most complex aspect of this approach -- as with the whole revolution itself -- would be keeping policy *consistent* across each and every skyscraper facility, so that any possible discontinuities would be solidly ironed-out. The overall idea here is to be as humane as possible to as many class enemy personnel as possible so that they're excluded from active real-world politics, but without antagonizing any of them personally so that they could claim an inherently messy *social* situation and treatment. Once the revolution is completed all such prisoners could then be released because they and their reactionary ideas would no longer have any traction in such a fully post-capitalist social order.

**Ele'ill** · 21st September 2017, 20:12

Originally Posted by ckaihatsu

After some additional thought

lol

**Nah Revisionism** · 21st September 2017, 22:03

Know that if they were strong, if the entirety of America weren't against them. It would be communists, it would be leftists, it would be women, racial and ethnic minorities that would be crying. Because nazis threaten and usually take actions against their targets for no reason other than individual acts of terrorism. Many a times skinheads will go up to a minority and beat them up with a club late at night for absolutely no reason. (Search Mulugeta Seraw)

**Ele'ill** · 22nd September 2017, 23:46

Originally Posted by Nah Revisionism

Know that if they were strong, if the entirety of America weren't against them. It would be communists, it would be leftists, it would be women, racial and ethnic minorities that would be crying. Because nazis threaten and usually take actions against their targets for no reason other than individual acts of terrorism. Many a times skinheads will go up to a minority and beat them up with a club late at night for absolutely no reason. (Search Mulugeta Seraw)

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. It has been largely anarchist and communist action that has driven their organizing out, while the rest of those in opposition to them are still caught in the spell of processes that do more to enable fascist organizing than eject it. It is anarchists and communists suffering the consequences of state collusion with fascists and of fascist attacks, in confrontation, although not exclusively by any means. That's not to discredit a possibly large liberal body that has been on the fence regarding anti-politics, disillusionment with civil order and process etc..that has come to face and understood the necessity of direct action and a diversity of tactics. I think a portion of fascist followers in the US had their conviction challenged when they finally came outside and realized that the lowest common denominator stereotype of what they see as opposition, who they could intimidate without response, was harder and more experienced than they were and they felt themselves drowning. Their self delusion of clout and entitlement sank hard, the reality of war surfaced.

Thread: Do the Charlottesville Nazis deserve violence after the fact?

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