Do the Charlottesville Nazis deserve violence after the fact?

[TomLeftist]

We need a dictatorship of the proletariat exercising death Penalty for the members of the David Duke movement, for all the members of the nazi party,for all the members of the Republican Party, for all the members of the Tea Party. For Ted Nugent, Michael Savage, for all the workers of FOX news, for all the people who like NFL football, who drive hummers, who exercise violence in the highways (road rage), for all the members of the NRA, for all the members of Blackwaters, for all police workers of USA,for many church pastors, for Pat Roberttson, for all the members of the KKK, for all the people who are racists against blacks, latinos, lesbians and gays, immigrants, people with weight-gain problems (who also suffer from being hated) poor people

Ele: That's right, the revolutionary radical leftists, are literally warriors, and we are at war against the right-wing. We cannot feel any love, any pitty, any sadness, against any harm done against the right-wing. Reality is immoral, reality out there is not moralist, morality and religion and good intentions are very dangerous. We should be real violent and agressive against these pieces of human trash, the white european nazis.

I am not racist against european whites. But many people claim, that the northern european ethnicities, people who live in US and are blonde, white, have a sort of barbarian viking rude behavioujr script in their blood, in their DNA. These people cannot be reformed and turned into nice human beings. These king pieces of shits should be destroyed.

That's why I think that one of the best solutions for the anti-racism Malcom X, Martin Luther King, Fred Hampton, Black Lives Matter movement, the Immigration Reform movement, the gays and lesbians movement, along with other sectors who are hated by european whites xenophobic racists people is really to create an Ultra-Leftist Communist Labor Front composed of all the leftists of the USA who are far to the left. And who do not like Bernie Sanders, Green Party, Amy Goodman, Dennis Kucinich and the social-democrat leftists. But who are aware that only a left movement far to the left, once in power can destroy and even send to Death Penalty the racists nazis

There isn't really an 'after the fact' because they're still organizing. If some of them are crying about having their 'lives ruined' I'd have to ask which life? Their life as a fascist that they saw for themselves? If some of them didn't know this was real this is a great wake up call for them to fuck off and never ever go back.

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BIXX: But I think that even though I make a lot of mistakes in praising people who are not real marxists. But at least I have the intention of destroying racism, fascism, capitalism and replacing it with socialism, thru a unity of all the people who hate capitalism racism and who love communism.

It is very hard to offer scientific perfectionist solutions. I am a human and I am supposed to make mistakes. But at least I agree that fascism, nazism, racism capitalism should be destroyed and replaced by socialism and then by state-less communism

This all sounds like a fantasy that has no basis in the reality of what communism is and is more based around being some sort of superhero. And furthermore a lot of the people you reference as people we should respect as "warriors" are real shit and not communist in any way.

[TomLeftist]

GLF: I agree with you, we need a marxist party who would install a dictatorship, even against leftists who are too perfectionists, many utopian dreamers think that it is very easy to destroy a capitalist state and to replace it by a Disney World socialist Paradise real easy with wealth, health and beauty for everybody. But the best way to destroy capitalism and even utopian leftists, orthodox-marxists puritan-marxists is with a dictatorship. Because humans are evil and it is better to be feared than to be loved.

There are many leftists in wsws.org who are like that, they hate other leftists because when leftists try to be too orthodox, they become hateful people, full of hate, full of puritianism and they turn into worse enemies of communism, than right-wingers

The world is still capitalist, the whole world, because the whole world is full of a left that is divided as a result of group-narcissism, poilitical-party-narcissism, and as a result of the lack of unity and lack of love of many leftists. The left is divided into many tendencies and that's why the right-wing is so powerful and maybe will continue in power for many years, because the left suffers from an excess of group-narcissism, perfectionism, puritanism and sectarianism

I know that it is sort of hard to unite stalinists with anarchists, but the thing is that the left will need to do that, because if the left continues to be so divided into many tendencies, capitalism and imperialism, the KKK, racism, blonde european people trashing non-white people will continue for many years to come

I'm probably going to be ostracized from revleft for this, but I don't care. This is something that's been making me sad. I've been on youtube, twitter, and other sites and pretty much laughing at those silly little Nazis crying about how everyone's being mean to them. Sending them hatemail, threatening them and getting them fired and shit. It's pretty much them against the whole country at this point which I think is a very good and healthy thing. But then I started to kinda feel bad about that. We've never had anything like this before in Charlottesville with the doxing and shit, and I'm finding out that I don't really feel at all comfortable with it. Is it just my nature to not like seeing people who are outnumbered being attacked? I would never defend the far-right on the streets - I would kick their little asses no matter how "outnumbered" they were, but for some reason this just feels different to me.

I talked to my partner about this and he agrees but says that "the people have a right to express themselves" in the fallout. He said that I shouldn't feel sorry for them no matter how outnumbered they are and that I should feel sorry the victims. And that they better learn a lesson.

Outnumbered has nothing to do with it, though. Trump is the most hated man on the planet and I don't feel any need to defend his dumb ass. The bourgeoisie is vastly outnumbered, too, and I dream of war on them. It's not that they're outnumbered - Nazis should always be outnumbered. Yet I don't have an explanation for it... I don't know what's wrong with me. Am I turning into Chomsky?

I can honestly say that outside the context of class-struggle, there isn't a single class of person or a single type of person that I hate. I wish that everyone of those deluded boys would've been rounded up in a padded wagon and sent to a reeducation facility. But we don't have that. And if we're being honest...we'll probably never have it. This is liberal rule, and we're going to be under it for the next thousand years and there's nothing that any of us can ever do to stop it.

I just hate that there's so much pain and hate in this world.

[Ele'ill]

We need a dictatorship of the proletariat exercising death Penalty for the members of the David Duke movement, for all the members of the nazi party,for all the members of the Republican Party, for all the members of the Tea Party. For Ted Nugent, Michael Savage, for all the workers of FOX news, for all the people who like NFL football, who drive hummers, who exercise violence in the highways (road rage), for all the members of the NRA, for all the members of Blackwaters, for all police workers of USA,for many church pastors, for Pat Roberttson, for all the members of the KKK, for all the people who are racists against blacks, latinos, lesbians and gays, immigrants, people with weight-gain problems (who also suffer from being hated) poor people

Ele: That's right, the revolutionary radical leftists, are literally warriors, and we are at war against the right-wing. We cannot feel any love, any pitty, any sadness, against any harm done against the right-wing. Reality is immoral, reality out there is not moralist, morality and religion and good intentions are very dangerous. We should be real violent and agressive against these pieces of human trash, the white european nazis.

I am not racist against european whites. But many people claim, that the northern european ethnicities, people who live in US and are blonde, white, have a sort of barbarian viking rude behavioujr script in their blood, in their DNA. These people cannot be reformed and turned into nice human beings. These king pieces of shits should be destroyed.

That's why I think that one of the best solutions for the anti-racism Malcom X, Martin Luther King, Fred Hampton, Black Lives Matter movement, the Immigration Reform movement, the gays and lesbians movement, along with other sectors who are hated by european whites xenophobic racists people is really to create an Ultra-Leftist Communist Labor Front composed of all the leftists of the USA who are far to the left. And who do not like Bernie Sanders, Green Party, Amy Goodman, Dennis Kucinich and the social-democrat leftists. But who are aware that only a left movement far to the left, once in power can destroy and even send to Death Penalty the racists nazis

I'm sorry, I don't understand much of what you've posted here and I'm not down with turning the thread topic into a discussion on the dotp or death penalty.

[Antiochus]

This site has become a bizarre dumpster fire with users people talking about being "warriors" and others feeling sorry for the nazis . This is just what happens when theoretical understanding grounded on thorough historical analysis is discarded and replaced by shit-tier "feelings" and identity politics.

I mean:

racists against blacks, latinos, lesbians and gays, immigrants, people with weight-gain problems (who also suffer from being hated)

Either TomLeftist is a brilliant troll or he might actually be the dumbest pile of shit I've seen alive. Fat people are gross, what are you going to do about it? ;D . Really though, comparing fat people's "plight" to racism? lmao. Again, if you are joking, go on, its more entertaining than reading some moron have arguments about ecology go over their pea-sized brains.

Oh, actually, I just read the 2nd part of that moron's rant.

I am not racist against european whites. But many people claim, that the northern european ethnicities, people who live in US and are blonde, white, have a sort of barbarian viking rude behavioujr script in their blood, in their DNA. These people cannot be reformed and turned into nice human beings. These king pieces of shits should be destroyed.

Let me guess admins, no ban/sequestering of someone calling for a bizarre genocide based on something he read on 4chan? K. Continue to permit this forum to go into the depths of hell and then complain about why people no longer use it.

[John Nada]

Let me guess admins, no ban/sequestering of someone calling for a bizarre genocide based on something he read on 4chan? K. Continue to permit this forum to go into the depths of hell and then complain about why people no longer use it.

TomLeftist is a sockpuppet of a user that's been banned repeatedly over years. I think they went by TrotskyistMarxist and AmilarCarbral . For some reason, they keep coming back with the same act and play ignorant each time. Not even an entertaining or original troll either.

[Ele'ill]

than reading some moron have arguments about ecology go over their pea-sized brains.

the arguments you couldn't respond to because rafiq was offline at the time

[GLF]

I don't feel sorry for actual Nazis. People like Richard Spencer who is a little rich fuck from a privileged family ...do whatever you want to his ass and I don't give two shits. We need a unified working class and they work against that in perpetuation of the status quo. But I always had this idea of the fascists as these tatooed, excon types but many of the pictures that came out of Charolottesvile were of fresh faced young boys many of whom are proletarians and that just bothered the absolute hell out of me. Maybe it's because I'm older than I used to be and this shit effects me more now but I can't help but wonder if there is any hope at all for them. Are they what is meant by lumpenproles?

As for Tom, I agree with some of the stuff he says but I don't like the sound of "dictatorship" even of the proletariat - which is horribly named IMO. And outside the context of revolutionary war (which is inevitable that terrible no-win decisions must be made), I don't support the death penalty and never will...under capitalism, socialism, communism, whatever. No death penalty ever.

[ckaihatsu]

[I] don't like the sound of "dictatorship" even of the proletariat - which is horribly named IMO.

Really -- ?

I think 'dictatorship of the proletariat' cuts-to-the-chase and succinctly sums-up the idea that there *has* to be working-class *hegemony* over the bourgeoisie. Sure, it's not a *pretty* term, and for some may seem to conflate right-wing 'strongman' politics, with revolutionary-leftist goals, but at least it's technically *accurate* in description since it references a *collective* body, that of the proletariat.

[GLF]

Really -- ?

I think 'dictatorship of the proletariat' cuts-to-the-chase and succinctly sums-up the idea that there *has* to be working-class *hegemony* over the bourgeoisie. Sure, it's not a *pretty* term, and for some may seem to conflate right-wing 'strongman' politics, with revolutionary-leftist goals, but at least it's technically *accurate* in description since it references a *collective* body, that of the proletariat.

I understand your point and I agree with the Leninist conception of proletarian power absolute - it's just a really shitty name by today's standards because a lot of people don't know what proletariat means, then they hear the word "dictatorship" and think "oh shit, goosestepping commies" and it makes us look kinda bad. Just my opinion - it's something I believe in but not a term I'm apt to use myself unless necessary.

[ckaihatsu]

I understand your point and I agree with the Leninist conception of proletarian power absolute - it's just a really shitty name by today's standards because a lot of people don't know what proletariat means, then they hear the word "dictatorship" and think "oh shit, goosestepping commies" and it makes us look kinda bad. Just my opinion - it's something I believe in but not a term I'm apt to use myself unless necessary.

A more-palatable alternative may be 'workers power', or 'workers control over social production'.

[GLF]

A more-palatable alternative may be 'workers power', or 'workers control over social production'.

Absolutely. If I were giving a public interview, for instance, that's precisely the term I'd like to use.

A lot of terms and slogans have proved problematic for me. In my social life anytime certain words pop up (communism, Marx, etc) I find myself spending more time providing historical context on Stalin, the Holodomor, Pol Pot, Castro, etc and less time talking about the shit matters to common every day people. Other leftists on this site and other places disagree with me, but I do believe that if we're to have a new worker's movement, the terminology and aesthetics will have to be modified because we're already going to have an uphill battle breaking through both the liberal bureaucracy and conservative stronghold on rural America...having to rehabilitate terms that common people have been utterly poisoned against all their lives is an extra challenge that we can honestly do without...at least initially.

[Ele'ill]

imo more interesting than having to form anything at all is the inherent form the merging and separation of bodies and lives is taking in response to not just fascism but against the state, like in phoenix a night or so ago, and boston before that. It's action taken as life in the present, and not separate from it.

[ckaihatsu]

Absolutely. If I were giving a public interview, for instance, that's precisely the term I'd like to use.

A lot of terms and slogans have proved problematic for me. In my social life anytime certain words pop up (communism, Marx, etc) I find myself spending more time providing historical context on Stalin, the Holodomor, Pol Pot, Castro, etc and less time talking about the shit matters to common every day people. Other leftists on this site and other places disagree with me, but I do believe that if we're to have a new worker's movement, the terminology and aesthetics will have to be modified because we're already going to have an uphill battle breaking through both the liberal bureaucracy and conservative stronghold on rural America...having to rehabilitate terms that common people have been utterly poisoned against all their lives is an extra challenge that we can honestly do without...at least initially.

I'd say that *the economy* is doing our work *for* us -- just ask anyone why there's so much unemployment, income inequality, and people having to 'scrape by'. Ask them what they think about capitalism as it's operating now, and if they've ever thought about some kind of *alternative* to it....

[GLF]

imo more interesting than having to form anything at all is the inherent form the merging and separation of bodies and lives is taking in response to not just fascism but against the state, like in phoenix a night or so ago, and boston before that. It's action taken as life in the present, and not separate from it.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'action taken as life in the present, and not separate from it'.

I'm probably being dense. Just the same, can you please elaborate?

I'd say that *the economy* is doing our work *for* us -- just ask anyone why there's so much unemployment, income inequality, and people having to 'scrape by'. Ask them what they think about capitalism as it's operating now, and if they've ever thought about some kind of *alternative* to it....

I find it very encouraging. I would probably guess that if they did a poll right now and the only options were, "Do you like Capitalism, Yes or No", over 50% would say no.

The only problem is that these people think that there are already solution in the works and/or being pushed for in the form of mixed-economical reforms. What they don't know is that because these so-called "solutions" have no LTV basis, fundamental inequality will just morph along accordingly persisting in different forms. And the public ignorance here is a failure on the part of the left.

[BIXX]

Is it a failure of the left or is it a success by the spectacular left, liberals and radicals alike?

Or, does it even matter? I mean, look at what's happening in the US at the moment- people are engaging in actions as their new lives, emerging just long enough to provide solidarity and attack against the state and capital, then retreating into their "normal" lives, only to emerge again later to repeat the process of attack. Do we need a program? I don't think so- these people certainly don't. So why should we push ourselves into the same limited capacity, and enjoy our positions as the conscious elements of the communist project and act as the conscious, or as we might call it a vanguard, should- being the one's on the front line of action.

[TomLeftist]

You can be a theorist here on Revleft and on Facebook. But outside if you go out, because maybe you have to go out to buy food, or to any other activity you have to be a Rambo, a warrior, what's wrong with being a warrior. Communists are not a church, are not The Dalai Lama, the whole world is not a church. If you love life a lot, and if you are black, latino, a poor white a gay, lesbian or any other oppressed sector, you better be brave, and get into a program of either weight-lifting and-or personal defense. Malcom X and many other leaders of the black left and even social-democrats like Thom Hartmann have stated that when blacks, latinos, muslims go out in any city of USA they better be prepared and take defensive measures in order not to be killed. Because dying is not cool, being a life is cooler than dying

I am not trying to be contrarian with you, about the need of theory. Of course we need a marxist theory, the creationg of a proletarian party, a united ultra-leftist party that would unite the leftists of USA who are far to the left and willing to support an ultra-leftist political program, a workers government

This site has become a bizarre dumpster fire with users people talking about being "warriors" and others feeling sorry for the nazis . This is just what happens when theoretical understanding grounded on thorough historical analysis is discarded and replaced by shit-tier "feelings" and identity politics.

I mean:


Either TomLeftist is a brilliant troll or he might actually be the dumbest pile of shit I've seen alive. Fat people are gross, what are you going to do about it? ;D . Really though, comparing fat people's "plight" to racism? lmao. Again, if you are joking, go on, its more entertaining than reading some moron have arguments about ecology go over their pea-sized brains.

Oh, actually, I just read the 2nd part of that moron's rant.




Let me guess admins, no ban/sequestering of someone calling for a bizarre genocide based on something he read on 4chan? K. Continue to permit this forum to go into the depths of hell and then complain about why people no longer use it.

[TomLeftist]

I dont understand how can many people, even leftists be so anti-fighting, anti-warrior spirit. Maybe the excess of moralism, religious education, family values education, social ethics, institutional educational systems, laws etc. All that have made people hate violence. I don't understand why people think that violence is wrong. In this world nothing is right or wrong, violence is not evil, it is good if used in the right way, like in order to protect the weak and oppressed against the rich oppressors.

The excess of moralism within the left can also be dangerous. In a movie Clint Eastwood was fighting against a karate guy, and the karate guy, told Clint Eastwood that he knew karate, and Clint Eastwood said: "I know winchester" and pulled out a winchester rifle and killed the karate guy.

The left, the black liberation left should be armed, should be immoralist, violent and brave. The whole world, the hisotyr of the world is really a history of a permanent war, and we should be warriors, 24 hours a day, 365 days per year until we destroy capitalism in the whole world. The paradise lies at the shadows of the swords

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'action taken as life in the present, and not separate from it'.

I'm probably being dense. Just the same, can you please elaborate?



I find it very encouraging. I would probably guess that if they did a poll right now and the only options were, "Do you like Capitalism, Yes or No", over 50% would say no.

The only problem is that these people think that there are already solution in the works and/or being pushed for in the form of mixed-economical reforms. What they don't know is that because these so-called "solutions" have no LTV basis, fundamental inequality will just morph along accordingly persisting in different forms. And the public ignorance here is a failure on the part of the left.

[TomLeftist]

BIXX: You are right, when I said that leftists should be strong and brave warriors. I didn't mean to support any organized battle against the present nazis of the Republican Party and of the Donald Trump movement. What i mean is for leftists to be brave and warriors, in order to protect themselves when they are doing their regular activities, like buyin good, working and going out.

I am like you, I really think that what the left needs is an orderly rational marxism program, to create a United Marxist Ultra-Leftist Front, composed of all the leftists of the USA who are not social-democrats, who are willing to support a left program that is far to the left.

I am all for that, with orderly organized book-reading of leftist scientific literature in most working class communities. But there is a problem, the problem I see is that the ultra-leftists lack the necessary economic resources for that. While social-demorat leftists have more economic power. But maybe we can plan a system to get the necessary dollars we need for that

Don't worry, Donald Trump is making americans hate capitalism

Is it a failure of the left or is it a success by the spectacular left, liberals and radicals alike?

Or, does it even matter? I mean, look at what's happening in the US at the moment- people are engaging in actions as their new lives, emerging just long enough to provide solidarity and attack against the state and capital, then retreating into their "normal" lives, only to emerge again later to repeat the process of attack. Do we need a program? I don't think so- these people certainly don't. So why should we push ourselves into the same limited capacity, and enjoy our positions as the conscious elements of the communist project and act as the conscious, or as we might call it a vanguard, should- being the one's on the front line of action.

[ckaihatsu]

I find it very encouraging. I would probably guess that if they did a poll right now and the only options were, "Do you like Capitalism, Yes or No", over 50% would say no.

The only problem is that these people think that there are already solution in the works and/or being pushed for in the form of mixed-economical reforms. What they don't know is that because these so-called "solutions" have no LTV basis, fundamental inequality will just morph along accordingly persisting in different forms. And the public ignorance here is a failure on the part of the left.

Yes, and well-said.

Personally I'd welcome any efforts in the here-and-now to 'hash-out' as much as possible -- meaning potential, realistic *logistics* -- for the time of proletarian revolution and beyond, since, as you're pointing out, it's also a 'selling point' so-to-speak. People should be given *options* as to *how* approaches may be done for taking the whole thing off of the market system, since that would leave a situational vacuum without alternatives being spelled-out. (That's been a major motivation for my efforts at diagrams, too, particularly the 'labor credits' formulation.)

Is it a failure of the left or is it a success by the spectacular left, liberals and radicals alike?

Or, does it even matter? I mean, look at what's happening in the US at the moment- people are engaging in actions as their new lives, emerging just long enough to provide solidarity and attack against the state and capital, then retreating into their "normal" lives, only to emerge again later to repeat the process of attack. Do we need a program? I don't think so- these people certainly don't. So why should we push ourselves into the same limited capacity, and enjoy our positions as the conscious elements of the communist project and act as the conscious, or as we might call it a vanguard, should- being the one's on the front line of action.

This is a good point as well -- while time is always against us, we don't want to be too hasty, risking ending up in a *substitutionist* role "on behalf" of the working class, when it's supposed to be a whole-class thing.

[TomLeftist]

JohnNada: wow how smart are your comments. Do you think that by hating other leftist comrades you will overthrow capitalism and racism? Do you think that if you are attacked by a hoarde of nazis thugs, you can destroy them with a book of Karl Marx and Lenin?

What a piece of trash you are

TomLeftist is a sockpuppet of a user that's been banned repeatedly over years. I think they went by TrotskyistMarxist and AmilarCarbral . For some reason, they keep coming back with the same act and play ignorant each time. Not even an entertaining or original troll either.