Armed Leftists in AZ

[Recuperation]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc_lFjfs068

I came across this today but it looks like its from a couple days ago. What do you all think of this? I was pretty alarmed by the interaction between the guy filming and the groups leaders. To be blunt none of these folks look like they are prepared to deal with the consequences from actually firing off one of those expensive toys for real.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc_lFjfs068

I came across this today but it looks like its from a couple days ago. What do you all think of this? I was pretty alarmed by the interaction between the guy filming and the groups leaders. To be blunt none of these folks look like they are prepared to deal with the consequences from actually firing off one of those expensive toys for real.

Honestly, it's the first I've heard of it and it's an interesting development but obviously something that's arisen in the midst of a rise in hate crime and right wing bullshit. After watching a bit of that video (which seems more of a 'gotcha!' that the right wing like to use to denigrate people rather than offering any real appraisal of the group, seriously the camera guy was a complete douche at times) I watched a few other videos and checked out their website. You're right that they seem a little 'unprepared' but perhaps a better way of putting it will be that it's a movement in its infancy. It's obvious that they are somewhat emulating the traditions of the Black Panthers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwgi4O61NQ8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AG-bwPUv1s
https://www.redneckrevolt.org/principles

[Recuperation]

What makes you think it was a 'gotcha' video? The guy with the camera might have been a douche, but he also wasn't the one walking around with a loaded fire arm making subtle threats. I'm not sold on the wisdom of this. The militarization of popular struggles leads to a corrosion of solidarity and a proliferation of egocrats. We haven't even reached the event and already these roleplayers has come crawling out of their basements looking to do just that. Based on the dipshit with the beer gut and the sunglasses I would say they have more in common with the cops than the BPP. Who the hell walks up to someone demanding ID? Fuck these losers.

[willowtooth]

This kind of march might have been helpful at a large gathering like the women's march, the trump protests, anything where alot of leftists who aren't armed, who are against guns in general, who even say the 2nd amendment should be abolished, can be recruited, can be used as protection, can be educated, and convinced to come to a meeting, or something. What did they expect to come from this march?


this was them at the J20 trump protests you can see some of the same guys in the back ground.

+ YouTube Video

If the goal is to show other leftists not be afraid to own, brandish, and even march with an assault rifle. Then you cannot hide your identity like that. No face no gun, thems the rules. You can use a nickname, but thats all (and not some fake name you made up for the protest that day ) The black panthers had a huge debate just about wearing sunglasses because people say it was used to conceal their identity making them look like criminals.

Here is a recent armed march by the black panthers in North Carolina

+ YouTube Video

there's no masks, no sunglasses, people are generally upbeat they even bring their kids along. Why would you have a public demonstration at all, if your not going to let people film you? The only real situation I can think of is, if the police represent a genuine threat to peaceful protesters and these guys aren't protesting at all, but acting as security at which point you shouldn't engage with anyone, much less get into some verbose political argument. What would the secret service do if there was somebody shouting political talking points and filming them? Forget the secret service what would Britney Spears security guard do?

Here is the camera guy's opinion in his own words

I made a comment on the video that this entire event proved that the far left can be as hostile to the First Amendment as the far right.And that's coming from a big, fat liberal.
In hindsight, it occurs to me that if a left-wing militia and a right-wing militia, such as the ALG, cross paths at an future demonstration, there very easily could be bloodshed.
Both sides are loaded for bear. And I get the feeling both sides can rationalize their behavior after the fact, even if it comes down to killing someone.
I'm reminded of the 1979 shootout in Greensboro, North Carolina, when a "Death to the Klan" rally held by the Communist Workers Party was crashed by Klan and Nazi members.
Five people lost their lives, four of them CWP members.
It may be just a matter of time before history repeats itself.
However, this being Arizona, there's a lot more firepower on both sides, and I suspect, if it goes down, the body count will be higher.

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/...orizon-9192965

He's a real journalist, with the pheonix new times, a small local newspaper

For context here is another article of his covering a holocaust survivors comparison of Trump to Hitler.

In this issue, Phoenix New Times writers show the myriad ways that immigration touches us, enriches us and, sometimes, seems to threaten us. Aside from Knoblauch, you also will meet a Russian barber, an Ethiopian restaurateur, an acclaimed Copenhagen-born dancer and choreographer, a radio host from Côte d’Ivoire, an undocumented student, and a local mother who blames illegal immigration for the tragic loss of her son.Though many Americans agree that immigration is a positive force, with the election of a president who holds a dim view of Muslims and Mexicans, we are experiencing an ugly resurgence in nativism and white supremacy, often cloaked in the faddish nomenclature of the so-called alt-right.
For his part, Knoblauch perceives dark parallels between the era of Trump and the reign of the Nazis.
Personally, I am always shy of such analogies, but if anyone is allowed to go there, it is a Shoah survivor such as Knoblauch, one of 100 to 200 living in the Valley, according to the Phoenix Holocaust Survivors’ Association. In our new president, Knoblauch hears an echo of evil times past.

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/...rvivor-9181256

So this wasn't just some weird guy with an iPhone and a crappy youtube account trying to get a rise out of them for views, he was a genuine member of the press, the local press no less someone they should be more than eager to talk to. The Phoenix new times is the Arizona equivalent of the village voice, so we aren't talking about some alt-neonazi or even CNN. You could not ask for a friendlier member of the press.

I really wonder what they would do if people were shouting racial slurs at them, spitting at them, throwing rocks at them. Would they fire back? Is that plan? Did they bring handcuffs to make citizens arrests? What was the plan? What if he had a gun? Apparently a camera is a more powerful weapon than an assault rifle these days lol, since people seem to freeze up at the sight of one, like they just had an assault rifle pointed in their face. Forget screaming "hands up, dont shoot" we need to start screaming "Facebook live, don't shoot" lol.

these guys are trying to be a legal group, in the sense that they are taking the time to educate other protesters in gun rights, and the benefits of using them, and what could be more revolutionary then that? But they should know then when its okay to shoot their weapons, when its okay to push someone aside, what you can and cant get away with. And if you don't feel threatened, if you dont plan on putting a bullet in that guy, then you should friendlier than anyone you can imagine. You should be singing songs and recruiting people being happy and asking to them join in and telling people not to be afraid of them. Otherwise you shouldn't be marching in the streets, unless you plan on showing up to a klan rally to shoot eveyrone with confederate flag t-shirt and you "have to" wear masks because your planning on getting away with some mass slaughter, if not then what the hell are you wearing a mask for?

Were they going to riot after? Were they planning on burning down city hall if some amendment or law didn't pass? Bringing guns to a rally is great because then cops are much less likely to start shooting randomly into the crowds. Which is not something that happens alot in america anymore. But if the guns weren't for the cops who were they for? When the panthers formed they were responding to violent reaction by the state against protesters and then immediate cover up by the media. they would shoot women and children, sick dogs on them, tear gas was the least of their worries. Police dont do that anymore largely it will be filmed on camera. The guns were a statement of "we are our own police" they were defending the black community and other civil rights protesters from the police themselves who seemed to be given permission to murder and lynch black people for protesting.

Are these people saying they are the new police, are they saying they will take up the job? Are they defending themselves from police brutality? No they are defending themselves from economic oppression, something I doubt they universally feel. I seriously doubt they couldn't have easily looked on their iPhones to find out who this reporter was. Nevertheless they call themselves "rednecks" ironically in solidarity with a miner's union strike. Something that has little to do with the term, the real first person to coin it, was James Vardaman, who led poor white southern farmers in a white supremacy movement called the wool hats, once saying "If it is necessary every negro in the state will be lynched; it will be done to maintain white supremacy." The term redneck was popularized by him, but it din't originate with him either, the term comes from slave drivers who were in the field with black slaves. It's synonymous with the term cracker as in "whip cracker". The farthest thing you could find away from a term for multiraciallaborers short of the term slave master itself.

[Recuperation]

Are these people saying they are the new police, are they saying they will take up the job?

This is specifically what bothered me enough to post it. All the main talkers in this video take on the same arrogant swagger that every damn sheriffs deputy I've ever interacted with has had. As soon as they've got numbers and power on their side they turn into the same jackbooted thugs they supposedly organized to oppose in the first place.

[TomLeftist]

Hi, wow I wish we have an armed communist revolution right now. But the thing is that an armed rebellion is literally a war, of one army against another army. And in order for an army to defeat an enemy army that army has to be powerful or stronger than the enemy is trying to defeat. I wish we had an armed revolution right now, but at the same time i am realist in the spirit of the book The Prince by Machiavelli and other realist thinkers, that claim that, power is very important, physical and military power is very important, unlike many idealists who claim that they can win a war with only ideas like Ghandi etc.
And that's why I think that Lenin said that in order for a revolution to be succesful there has to be an objective revolutionary situation. And from my own point of view, I think that there is still not a revolutionary situation in the USA. In USA most people are still too pacifists, and too anti-communism, too much anti-rebellion, too anti-protests, too reformists, too moralists and too pro-status quo electoral system.

Even in the left there are too many reformists who are anti-weapons, so from my own point of view an armed communist group in the USA wouldn't have too much success because most americans are too pacifists, too anti-politics and right now most americans are still not very worried about a radical change. So an armed leftist group would not be supported by the majority of low income people, who are right-wingers most of them

In the damn USA most people are too silent, after coming home from work, they shut their eyes and souls to the real world, like this song says from SoundGarden, so how can we expect an objective revolutionary situation if they shut their eyes to the outside world. Besides, the great majority of people might side a lot more with the US government, than with any rebellious armed group. The US government, along with the ruling class and its powerful mainstream media have the psychologic power to turn that armed rebellioust leftist group into a terrorist Al Qaeda or ISIS terrorist group. People in USA will then believe that they have links to any professional terrorist group and that might even scare people a lot more. That's why most parents in the USA try to get their children into sports and many other activities, in order to keep them busy and get them away from any type of radical revolutionary group




.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc_lFjfs068

I came across this today but it looks like its from a couple days ago. What do you all think of this? I was pretty alarmed by the interaction between the guy filming and the groups leaders. To be blunt none of these folks look like they are prepared to deal with the consequences from actually firing off one of those expensive toys for real.

[John Nada]

They need spokespeople to deal with questions. Yeah, the reporter seemed to be going for the horseshoe theory angle from the get-go. But someone could've taken the opportunity to speak about socialism, [email protected] liberation and to denounce fascism. I mean serious revolutionary organizations use fucking court trials and funerals for propaganda purposes, surely you could do it at a planned march. Or at the very least, keep him busy while the show of force marches on.

I think of Socialism in the US as in an amateurist, spontaneous state. An initial phase before becoming an organized and purposeful force. Like what Lenin describes in What is to be Done?, particularly Chapter IV

If the goal is to show other leftists not be afraid to own, brandish, and even march with an assault rifle. Then you cannot hide your identity like that. No face no gun, thems the rules. You can use a nickname, but thats all (and not some fake name you made up for the protest that day ) The black panthers had a huge debate just about wearing sunglasses because people say it was used to conceal their identity making them look like criminals.

Red Guard Austin had some open carry protests with masks, though I think it was to counter armed fascists. But there's an alternative that the New People's Army uses, face paint: https://medium.com/@mattflorence/who...s-8c6c2dac9871 Although due to US culture, they'd need to be careful on the color scheme. People might either think you're in Black/Brown/Yellow/Redface, appropriating Native American culture or a bunch of Juggalos.

Here is a recent armed march by the black panthers in North Carolina

there's no masks, no sunglasses, people are generally upbeat they even bring their kids along. Why would you have a public demonstration at all, if your not going to let people film you? The only real situation I can think of is, if the police represent a genuine threat to peaceful protesters and these guys aren't protesting at all, but acting as security at which point you shouldn't engage with anyone, much less get into some verbose political argument. What would the secret service do if there was somebody shouting political talking points and filming them? Forget the secret service what would Britney Spears security guard do?

I think some had masks but yeah. Like Mao said, politics commands the gun, not the other way around.

these guys are trying to be a legal group, in the sense that they are taking the time to educate other protesters in gun rights, and the benefits of using them, and what could be more revolutionary then that? But they should know then when its okay to shoot their weapons, when its okay to push someone aside, what you can and cant get away with. And if you don't feel threatened, if you dont plan on putting a bullet in that guy, then you should friendlier than anyone you can imagine. You should be singing songs and recruiting people being happy and asking to them join in and telling people not to be afraid of them. Otherwise you shouldn't be marching in the streets, unless you plan on showing up to a klan rally to shoot eveyrone with confederate flag t-shirt and you "have to" wear masks because your planning on getting away with some mass slaughter, if not then what the hell are you wearing a mask for?

On one hand, masking up could intimidate regular people. It looks like you're going to jack somebody. But on the other, these fascists groups are armed, bosses are harsher towards being a leftist than rightist and it's another photo for LE.

Were they going to riot after? Were they planning on burning down city hall if some amendment or law didn't pass? Bringing guns to a rally is great because then cops are much less likely to start shooting randomly into the crowds. Which is not something that happens alot in america anymore. But if the guns weren't for the cops who were they for? When the panthers formed they were responding to violent reaction by the state against protesters and then immediate cover up by the media. they would shoot women and children, sick dogs on them, tear gas was the least of their worries. Police dont do that anymore largely it will be filmed on camera. The guns were a statement of "we are our own police" they were defending the black community and other civil rights protesters from the police themselves who seemed to be given permission to murder and lynch black people for protesting.

Are these people saying they are the new police, are they saying they will take up the job? Are they defending themselves from police brutality? No they are defending themselves from economic oppression, something I doubt they universally feel. I seriously doubt they couldn't have easily looked on their iPhones to find out who this reporter was. Nevertheless they call themselves "rednecks" ironically in solidarity with a miner's union strike. Something that has little to do with the term, the real first person to coin it, was James Vardaman, who led poor white southern farmers in a white supremacy movement called the wool hats, once saying "If it is necessary every negro in the state will be lynched; it will be done to maintain white supremacy." The term redneck was popularized by him, but it din't originate with him either, the term comes from slave drivers who were in the field with black slaves. It's synonymous with the term cracker as in "whip cracker". The farthest thing you could find away from a term for multiraciallaborers short of the term slave master itself.

Weren't like half the protesters from the Brown Berets?

I've heard redneck may have originally meant white indentured servants. They were fresh from Britain and Ireland, so they'd get sunburned. Similar to the Caribbean term Redleg.

[Recuperation]

Or at the very least, keep him busy while the show of force marches on.

A show of force for whom? These people are totally unaccountable to anyone in that community. This video is false consciousness on parade and the best you can offer are some worn out Mao quotes that aren't even fucking relevant. Are there any communists left on this site or have they all been banned?

[Jimmie Higgins]

I really don't know much about this group other than a short statement I read (and didn't watch the vid coz I'm at work) so, you know, some speculative interneting out of my web-ass to follow here.

If there was a revival of labor militancy in the us, then in more rural areas there might be the formation of, and probably need for, armed left wing militias.

If the local middle class in your rural area is arming up and joining right-wing militias, it makes sense (and is necessary if the fascist militia takes action) for groups of poor Native Americans, rural whites or organized strikers to arm themselves in defense.

That is just US history for rural areas.

But armed groups are a weak and unreliable source of power for the working class. People in Phoenix or whatever have more potential power through multiracial labor militancy than any number of armed political groups.

But it's the lack of that kind of organizing that, in the context of more radicalization to the left, causes a lot of impatience and the desire to leap over deficits of the current situation. This kind of situation can lead to a lot of individualistic or sect-based approaches to organizing and fighting. These views are the starting point for

The BPP were not a gun club. More importantly they were part of a larger conscious and identifiable movement. The necessity of black self-defense was long debated before them, there were identifiable political trends, organizations, many people experienced protests or city rebellions.

Workers in the us have set up militias to defend against company thugs, police, and fascist vigilante groups intending to use force to break strikes. But again this was part of a larger movement that could debate-out the need for armed defense.

So in short this kind of thing seems like putting the cart before the horse. Luckily the far-right is still not that organized and do not actively confront our movements. But this might happen soon, but we will be better armed by building strong class movements.

Also, some random points on the discussion: there is no such thing as "friendly" mainstream press. Progressive weeklies in many places may have had a counter-cultural start, but they are generally just the voice of the progressive local middle class now (pot companies, fancy restaurants, etc are usually most of the ads in them). I generally give people the benefit of the doubt, but the press should not be trusted. We need to be savvy about the press. In this example, the reporter clearly wanted shots of someone pointing a rifle at them in order to prove his pre-determined conclusion that the far right and far left are equivalents. This is the same technique that Bribart
"Reporters" have used at events I have attended... I think in this case the reporter just got professionally offended when questioned about his motives and egged them on, whereas bribart people's only intention is to push people until they push back so they can show videos of the "thug-left". But even if the reporter didn't intended to get in an argument, he clearly wanted to make some kind of bullshit equivalency argument.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TomLeftist]

Jimmie: You are right. It seems like things never change in the USA, reality is always the same, the same Mcdonalds, the same lifestyles, the people behaving in the same way, the majority of people with their pacific attitude, their lazy conformist mentality, the excess of silence, most people in USA are ultra-silent, ultra-pacific, even the internet is getting boring for the radical left.


I had to quit Facebook, because the great majority of leftists of Facebook are too reformists, too centrist-leftists, the great majority of alternative leftist news websites have been moving toward the center reformist left, even World Socialist Website http://www.wsws.org/ Counterpunch.org alternet, commondreams, truthdig, democracynow.org;


Nothing new happens in most cities of the USA and in the presidential elections, things are aways the same, the same corporate political options, not even The Green Party gets a fair possibility of participating in the presidential elections, every 4 years.  This excess of boredom, sameness, nothing new happening in the country since 9-11-2001, can lead to a lot of mental tiredness, boredom in the radical leftists and passive nihilism, pessimism and physical and mental weakness.


This might lead lots of leftists to take desperate radical actions like the leftist armed militias. But like you said, they will really not lead to the overthrow of the capitalist state to be replaced by a socialist workers state. That's why FARC rebels failed in Colombia to overthrow capitalism in that country, armed leftist movements isolated from a revolutionary objective situation and without the support of the majority of poor people most of the time fail. That's why FARC failed because most poor colombians are too right-wingers, too conformists, too pro-status quo, like the great majority of poor people of the world who are too pro-status quo political parties and not radical enough. We need to see poor people turning into warriors, into fighters, but you know most poor people are sort of scared and/or too mind-manipulated by morality, religion etc. to fight for their right to live a good life.


Maybe a worse economic crisis is needed in USA and in the world in order for poor low income people to support a communist revolution

But it's the lack of that kind of organizing that, in the context of more radicalization to the left, causes a lot of impatience and the desire to leap over deficits of the current situation. This kind of situation can lead to a lot of individualistic or sect-based approaches to organizing and fighting. These views are the starting point for

[willowtooth]

They need spokespeople to deal with questions. Yeah, the reporter seemed to be going for the horseshoe theory angle from the get-go. But someone could've taken the opportunity to speak about socialism, [email protected] liberation and to denounce fascism. I mean serious revolutionary organizations use fucking court trials and funerals for propaganda purposes, surely you could do it at a planned march. Or at the very least, keep him busy while the show of force marches on.

well, protocol shouldve been to send one of the bigger guys out there to check the guy out make sure he didn't have a gun himself and wasn't crazy. Then when they got back to their cars (it looks like they were walking back to their carpool after an event) he could've interviewed whoever he wanted.

I think of Socialism in the US as in an amateurist, spontaneous state. An initial phase before becoming an organized and purposeful force. Like what Lenin describes in What is to be Done?, particularly Chapter IVRed Guard Austin had some open carry protests with masks, though I think it was to counter armed fascists.

Interesting i dont usually apply lenin to anything going on in wealthy nations, alot of what he said could be re-written to apply to nazi germany, "We have noted that the entire student youth of the period was absorbed in Nazism. Of course, these students were not only, or even not so much, interested in Nazism as a theory; they were interested in it as an answer to the question, “What is to be done?”, as a call to take the field against the enemy."

The red guard armed march was like 5 people wasn't it? these Phoenix guys could totally outgun them lol

But there's an alternative that the New People's Army uses, face paint: https://medium.com/@mattflorence/who...s-8c6c2dac9871 Although due to US culture, they'd need to be careful on the color scheme. People might either think you're in Black/Brown/Yellow/Redface, appropriating Native American culture or a bunch of Juggalos.

I dont get the face painting tactic at all, I mean I can still see your face plain as day. I dont even know if that would hold up in court, "your honor the person in the picture who looks exactly like me, has face paint on, so its impossible to tell if that's me or not" lol

I think some had masks but yeah. Like Mao said, politics commands the gun, not the other way around.On one hand, masking up could intimidate regular people. It looks like you're going to jack somebody. But on the other, these fascists groups are armed, bosses are harsher towards being a leftist than rightist and it's another photo for LE.Weren't like half the protesters from the Brown Berets?

yeah lol but none of the guys with guns have masks though, you know how these protests get, alot people bring first aid kits, masks for pepper spray, handcuff keys even for even the tiniest protest when a half dozen people show up.

But I haven't heard anything about the new brown berets I know there's a small sort of remembrance group in LA mostly made up of lawyers, but theyre not really active anymore. However, it is odd to see "redneck revolt" in a state thats 1/3rd hispanic, is 44th in the nation as far as union membership, and was only a state for 8 years when the the mining strike of 1921 happened, so there has never been "rednecks" in Arizona. If this was Idaho or West Virginia I could maybe understand, although they do have local branches elsewhere this appear to be their main state. The john brown gun club seems to be their main organization, and from a right wing state like arizona which has gone to the republicans every year since the civil rights act, except once for clintons 2nd term, has more retirees than any state except florida and is heavily involved with the NRA, it's not surprising to see a left wing gun club

I've heard redneck may have originally meant white indentured servants. They were fresh from Britain and Ireland, so they'd get sunburned. Similar to the Caribbean term Redleg.

Ive never heard the term redleg before? Redneck has always meant cracker, its an insult from both black people and wealthy white people. It could even mean just white people from the south. America has never really had a history of white indentured servants. When they first sent white serfs to america they would often run away to join the native americans. Which was alot harder to do in the Caribbean islands. By the time the country was founded the north Atlantic slave trade was already going full swing

[John Nada]

A show of force for whom? These people are totally unaccountable to anyone in that community. This video is false consciousness on parade and the best you can offer are some worn out Mao quotes that aren't even fucking relevant. Are there any communists left on this site or have they all been banned?

That reporter might not care about security culture(good for him), but they do. Not just for themselves, but family and friends. Not just about cops, but fascists in particular. Fascists are armed, violent and protected by the state(which is itself a threat). Doxxing and swatting is part of their MO. Which is probably why the asked him not to film their license plates. IIRC some pamphlets on security culture recommend asking for press credentials before answering questions. For all they knew, he could've be a fascist provocateur. He's either ignorant of this, or planned on putting out "The far-left is just as bad as the far-right" Cold War narrative.

Interesting i dont usually apply lenin to anything going on in wealthy nations, alot of what he said could be re-written to apply to nazi germany, "We have noted that the entire student youth of the period was absorbed in Nazism. Of course, these students were not only, or even not so much, interested in Nazism as a theory; they were interested in it as an answer to the question, “What is to be done?”, as a call to take the field against the enemy."

Theorist like Lenin or Mao may have been in a semi-feudal societies, but much of it is universally applicable. Hell, the Bolsheviks and CCP were taking what Marx and Engels theorized for Western Europe and applying it to the conditions of their country. The same could be done in the US, taking the lessons of other revolutions and applying it to the US. What I think is that the early period of Russian socialist being limited to local circles and initial outburst of strikes and riots by workers(disproportionately among the oppressed nationalities) protesting both economic and political oppression, has parallels to the US. It's more local circles rather than countrywide organizations, and though it's not strategic and explicitly socialist, there's outbursts of riots and protests(largely among oppressed peoples) against the injustice of capitalism.

Although you do have a point about certain aspects of Leninism(or at least how they perceive the aesthetics) being appropriated by the right. The Leninist form of organization and insurrection are textbook examples of insurgencies. Protracted people's wars are the most dreaded and difficult to defeat types of war. Bourgeois militaries and politicians study these, and reactionaries try to emulate its success. Because it worked, so they think the can just mimic what they think is useful. But because they come from reactionary classes and rely on obscurantism and ignorance, these bourgeois forces cannot replicate it. Like baking a cake without flour; you got icing on something, but it still ain't a cake.

But I haven't heard anything about the new brown berets I know there's a small sort of remembrance group in LA mostly made up of lawyers, but theyre not really active anymore. However, it is odd to see "redneck revolt" in a state thats 1/3rd hispanic, is 44th in the nation as far as union membership, and was only a state for 8 years when the the mining strike of 1921 happened, so there has never been "rednecks" in Arizona. If this was Idaho or West Virginia I could maybe understand, although they do have local branches elsewhere this appear to be their main state. The john brown gun club seems to be their main organization, and from a right wing state like arizona which has gone to the republicans every year since the civil rights act, except once for clintons 2nd term, has more retirees than any state except florida and is heavily involved with the NRA, it's not surprising to see a left wing gun club

There's Brown Berets in a lot of cities with large Chicanx population. And I believe that Redneck Revolt was founded in Kansas and is sort of emulating the Young Patriots(who did shit that would not fly today like shout 'white power' and used a Confederate flag, but were anti-racist and anti-fascist ). There's probably people from "redneck" states that moved to Phoenix for college or work too.

Ive never heard the term redleg before? Redneck has always meant cracker, its an insult from both black people and wealthy white people. It could even mean just white people from the south. America has never really had a history of white indentured servants. When they first sent white serfs to america they would often run away to join the native americans. Which was alot harder to do in the Caribbean islands. By the time the country was founded the north Atlantic slave trade was already going full swing

Apparently Red Legs also referred to pro-Union guerrillas during the American Civil War. I wonder if there's a connection?

Actually I think for most of the colonial period most white people were indentured servants. But they would eventually be freed and given (stolen) land, vs. perpetual slavery for Black people.

[TomLeftist]

We have to beware of right-wingers. Right-wing people in America are very intolerant, they might attack and harass those armed leftists, and even un-armed leftists

[willowtooth]

That reporter might not care about security culture(good for him), but they do. Not just for themselves, but family and friends. Not just about cops, but fascists in particular. Fascists are armed, violent and protected by the state(which is itself a threat). Doxxing and swatting is part of their MO. Which is probably why the asked him not to film their license plates. IIRC some pamphlets on security culture recommend asking for press credentials before answering questions. For all they knew, he could've be a fascist provocateur. He's either ignorant of this, or planned on putting out "The far-left is just as bad as the far-right" Cold War narrative.Theorist like Lenin or Mao may have been in a semi-feudal societies, but much of it is universally applicable. Hell, the Bolsheviks and CCP were taking what Marx and Engels theorized for Western Europe and applying it to the conditions of their country. The same could be done in the US, taking the lessons of other revolutions and applying it to the US. What I think is that the early period of Russian socialist being limited to local circles and initial outburst of strikes and riots by workers(disproportionately among the oppressed nationalities) protesting both economic and political oppression, has parallels to the US. It's more local circles rather than countrywide organizations, and though it's not strategic and explicitly socialist, there's outbursts of riots and protests(largely among oppressed peoples) against the injustice of capitalism.

but that's just it the revolution wasn't against capitalism they were fighting for capitalism in order to bring russia and the surrounding republics into capitalism out of feudalism. if this were tunisia i might agree with you but in America, the UK, Singapore etc its just not applicable. again early periods of german nazism and italian fascism were "limited to local circles and initial outburst of strikes and riots by workers(disproportionately among the oppressed nationalities) protesting both economic and political oppression" germans and italians described themselves as oppressed nationalities in their own land. they defined themselves as the workers, and made membership in nationalized labor unions like the the german labor front practically mandatory for all citizens. They were protesting the political and economic oppression of the British and the Jews. They would literally stand in front of jewish owned business' and claim that they wouldn't pay their german workers a fair wage. While it was littered with anti-semetic conspiracies they released a lot of propaganda against capitalism. Just because we can see similarities between now and 1917 russia does not mean thats good thing, it does not mean it will lead to socialism. What's to be done like a lot of lenin's writing is a theory of praxis, any similarities should not be considered automatically socialist, anymore than a soviet military tank regiment's tactic be considered a socialist tank tactic

Although you do have a point about certain aspects of Leninism(or at least how they perceive the aesthetics) being appropriated by the right. The Leninist form of organization and insurrection are textbook examples of insurgencies. Protracted people's wars are the most dreaded and difficult to defeat types of war. Bourgeois militaries and politicians study these, and reactionaries try to emulate its success. Because it worked, so they think the can just mimic what they think is useful. But because they come from reactionary classes and rely on obscurantism and ignorance, these bourgeois forces cannot replicate it. Like baking a cake without flour; you got icing on something, but it still ain't a cake.

but they do it because it is just that, its an example of insurrection and insurgencies tactics it can and should be studied free of political ideology just like any military tactic.

There's Brown Berets in a lot of cities with large Chicanx population. And I believe that Redneck Revolt was founded in Kansas and is sort of emulating the Young Patriots(who did shit that would not fly today like shout 'white power' and used a Confederate flag, but were anti-racist and anti-fascist ). There's probably people from "redneck" states that moved to Phoenix for college or work too.Apparently Red Legs also referred to pro-Union guerrillas during the American Civil War. I wonder if there's a connection?

well there is always connection between darker or burnt skin and laborers in alot of countries. in asia darker skinned asians are considered lower class because theyve been out in the sun all day working. This was happening in europe long before they crossed the atlantic. in fact the term blue blood, comes from medieval europe, it might being light skinned enough to see the veins in your arm which meant you weren't a lower class field worker because your skin wasn't darker

Actually I think for most of the colonial period most white people were indentured servants. But they would eventually be freed and given (stolen) land, vs. perpetual slavery for Black people.

indentured servitude wasn't that bad, it wasn't nearly as bad as race based slavery. indentured servants were arguably better off than free immigrants. They received land, farm animals a years worth of food after their contract were up usually lasting only 5 years. Many became wealthy landowners faster than a college student would today. the freed servants land of course was owned by native americans many of whom these newly freed indentured servants would happily execute or enslave themselves. Many times contracts were offered for dead Indians $500 for a regular indian $2000 for chief (adjusted for inflation)

[John Nada]

Here's an article on the protest. https://itsgoingdown.org/phoenix-az-...h-report-back/ The John Brown Gun Club and Brown Berets were protesting a Make America Great Again(MAGA) rally. Turnout for the MAGA march was lower than expected and it ended early, most the journalist showed up when it was already over. They gave the other journalists contact info, no problems. The video was them leaving, not the protest. Actually sounds like they had it under control. "No investigation, no right to speak"

but that's just it the revolution wasn't against capitalism they were fighting for capitalism in order to bring russia and the surrounding republics into capitalism out of feudalism. if this were tunisia i might agree with you but in America, the UK, Singapore etc its just not applicable.

They were two revolutions in Russia, the February Revolution(bourgeois-democratic) followed by the October Revolution(proletarian-socialist). The first anti-feudal revolution paved the way for the second, socialist revolution.

Obviously places like the US, UK, France, ect. are imperialist bourgeois-democracies and not agrarian, military-feudal imperialist regimes. It'd be foolish mechanically copy early 20th century Russia. They've already completed the democratic and industrial revolutions. So there would need to be an analysis of these countries, the objective and subject conditions, and adapt.

again early periods of german nazism and italian fascism were "limited to local circles and initial outburst of strikes and riots by workers(disproportionately among the oppressed nationalities) protesting both economic and political oppression" germans and italians described themselves as oppressed nationalities in their own land. they defined themselves as the workers, and made membership in nationalized labor unions like the the german labor front practically mandatory for all citizens.They were protesting the political and economic oppression of the British and the Jews. They would literally stand in front of jewish owned business' and claim that they wouldn't pay their german workers a fair wage. While it was littered with anti-semetic conspiracies they released a lot of propaganda against capitalism.

They were oppressed nationalities like white Americans experience "reverse racism", not at all. Jewish people and rival nations were scapegoats, not oppressors. It's bourgeois ideology, smoke and mirrors. In fact, the fascists didn't come to power through insurrections like the Bolsheviks or a people's war like the CCP, but coups. This reflecting their class character, a reactionary petit-bourgeois movement backed by the big bourgeoisie.

Just because we can see similarities between now and 1917 russia does not mean thats good thing, it does not mean it will lead to socialism. What's to be done like a lot of lenin's writing is a theory of praxis, any similarities should not be considered automatically socialist, anymore than a soviet military tank regiment's tactic be considered a socialist tank tactic

Actually, the conditions are far more favorable for revolutionary education, agitation and organization, there's even less of an excuse. In Marx and Lenin's day just printing a newspaper without getting busted was a big deal, and there was holdouts of feudalism. Such thing are not a concern in the modern US. It's late capitalism and there's the internet for propaganda purposes.

Lenin's theories are inherently socialist, because the proletariat under the leadership of his party made the first sustained dictatorship of the proletariat. Marxism for the imperialist era. He wasn't writing about launching coups and unjust wars that leave society fundamentally the same, but of a coming social revolution. Now I don't think that the US is identical to Tsarist Russia, nor do I think it's preordained that socialism will win(could always be barbarism). But much of Lenin's ideas are applicable to the US, just like Marx and Engels's theories.

One major difference between bourgeois and proletarian armies is the former does not give a fuck about the masses and theoretical awareness of the troops. The US military doesn't have commissars and agitprop explaining why imperialism is good because Locke, Smith and the Federalist Papers. It can't, it'd be a joke and waste of money. Its 'hearts and minds' PR is just bullshitting, it's no mass line. The bourgeois militaries expect soldiers to follow orders and shoot, and the masses to get the fuck out of the way, that's it.

but they do it because it is just that, its an example of insurrection and insurgencies tactics it can and should be studied free of political ideology just like any military tactic.

War is a continuation of politics. It can't be separated, they're dialectical unity between the two. Since politics part of the superstructure, it has a class character. This is reflected in the organization, doctrine, ect. So while the Mujahadeen or Contras might've aped some aspects of people's war, or the Maidan and guarimbas were insurrections, it cannot be the same as the proletariat building socialism. I mean could the proletariat overthrow capitalism through a putsch or "color revolution"? No, because those are methods of a rival faction of the bourgeoisie dethroning another faction, if not a counterrevolution. Those two methods have only resulted in fascism or neoliberalism.

[willowtooth]

They were oppressed nationalities like white Americans experience "reverse racism", not at all. Jewish people and rival nations were scapegoats, not oppressors. It's bourgeois ideology, smoke and mirrors. In fact, the fascists didn't come to power through insurrections like the Bolsheviks or a people's war like the CCP, but coups. This reflecting their class character, a reactionary petit-bourgeois movement backed by the big bourgeoisie.

this is exactly what i disagree with there was legitimate concerns surrounding Jews and foreigners and their control of wealth in germany and more importantly Italy. I really think you should read up on the early beginnings of fascism in italy because you are dismissing legitimate concerns and conditions of history as bourgeoisie propaganda and "smoke and mirrors"

+ YouTube Video

[John Nada]

this is exactly what i disagree with there was legitimate concerns surrounding Jews and foreigners and their control of wealth in germany and more importantly Italy. I really think you should read up on the early beginnings of fascism in italy because you are dismissing legitimate concerns and conditions of history as bourgeoisie propaganda and "smoke and mirrors".

That video contradicts that there was 'legitimate concerns". For example, I might genuinely believe that the source of society's problems is space aliens and Satan, but it's not "legitimate concerns" about space aliens and Satan. Large swaths of society may agree, but it's still not the real problem. Rather it's real concerns, capitalism in crisis, warped through the prism of nationalism, jingoism and bigotry. This is the Ideology that Zizek spoke of.

On fascism being a reactionary revolution, Hammerquist's Fascism and Anti-Fascism and Sakai's The Shock of Recognition discusses this. They go over may of the points you've brought up, such as the anti-capitalist characteristics of fascists, that it could take advantage of a crisis and win the support of sections traditional regarded as reliable supporters of the Left, such as workers and oppressed peoples. These were written 15 years ago, after the Anti-Globalization Movement and then 9/11, but a lot of this is relevant with the rise of the alt-right. It's interesting if you compare their predictions to The Silicon Ideology.

[willowtooth]

That video contradicts that there was 'legitimate concerns". For example, I might genuinely believe that the source of society's problems is space aliens and Satan, but it's not "legitimate concerns" about space aliens and Satan. Large swaths of society may agree, but it's still not the real problem. Rather it's real concerns, capitalism in crisis, warped through the prism of nationalism, jingoism and bigotry. This is the Ideology that Zizek spoke of.

well what you had was italians working and scraping along to feed wealthy british and french tourists and financiers it was a lot like Caribbean culture except with a huge military infrastructure sitting there going to waste. hotels restaurants tourist spots that were using italian labor, who were in constant growing competition with immigrant labor, who were all being run by a handful of Italian aristocrats who had more in common with Londoners than where they owned land. Anti antisemitism wasn't even apart of fascism in italy, until it made its way to berlin and wealthy brits were replaced with jews, something like 40% of the wealth in berlin was owned by jews. They replaced the wealthy foreigners. The brits owned 90% of Rome, the entire italian involvement in WW1 was paid in full by the british. there were strikes and unionizing and protest but the aristocrats used this to further control not just over the workers but over the same foreign powers. By blaming them and by getting rid of the British and the french and the whoever, and saying the working class italians would be better off, by also getting rid of the poor immigrant laborers whoever they are, the italian workers would be better off.

It doesn't matter if from an intellectual level this wasn't true, in that their solution wouldn't work for the problem they were solving, it was the historical reality that the problem itself was real. Not to go too off topic but this also why you see a kind of neo fascism arising the middle east.

On fascism being a reactionary revolution, Hammerquist's Fascism and Anti-Fascism and Sakai's The Shock of Recognition discusses this. They go over may of the points you've brought up, such as the anti-capitalist characteristics of fascists, that it could take advantage of a crisis and win the support of sections traditional regarded as reliable supporters of the Left, such as workers and oppressed peoples. These were written 15 years ago, after the Anti-Globalization Movement and then 9/11, but a lot of this is relevant with the rise of the alt-right. It's interesting if you compare their predictions to The Silicon Ideology.

the silican ideology is an interesting thing for a comparison, because it has the same sort of aristocrats joining together with its new laborers in a sort of moralist modern futurist philosophy, but its lacking the brute force factor in that these new laborers were grunt workers, iron workers, fisherman, railworkers, the silicon ideologies army is a bunch of the most out of shape people imaginable. You're lucky if you can kind find a single software programmer who can pass a simple military fitness test. lol It's just different to me