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Thread: Is Zizek in favor of animal rights?

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  1. #1
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    Default Is Zizek in favor of animal rights?

    “What about animals slaughtered for our consumption? who among us would be able to continue eating pork chops after visiting a factory farm in which pigs are half-blind and cannot even properly walk, but are just fattened to be killed? And what about, say, torture and suffering of millions we know about, but choose to ignore? Imagine the effect of having to watch a snuff movie portraying what goes on thousands of times a day around the world: brutal acts of torture, the picking out of eyes, the crushing of testicles -the list cannot bear recounting. Would the watcher be able to continue going on as usual? Yes, but only if he or she were able somehow to forget -in an act which suspended symbolic efficiency -what had been witnessed. This forgetting entails a gesture of what is called fetishist disavowal: "I know it, but I don't want to know that I know, so I don't know." I know it, but I refuse to fully assume the consequences of this knowledge, so that I can continue acting as if I don't know it.”
    ― Slavoj Žižek

    https://northernsong.wordpress.com/2...nt-of-animals/

    In the past people often brought up zizek to show me how much of a non-communist i was because this communist thinker said something about ecology. I think its therefore worth sharing these excerpts from what he said.

    Last edited by IbelieveInanarchy; 19th February 2017 at 20:22.
    "I am vegan because I have compassion for animals; I see them as beings possessed of value not unlike humans. I am an anarchist because I have that same compassion for humans, and because I refuse to settle for compromised perspectives, half-assed strategies and sold-out objectives. As a radical, my approach to animal and human liberation is without compromise: total freedom for all, or else."

    "It takes no more time to be a vegetarian than to eat animal flesh.... When non-vegetarians say ‘human problems come first’ I cannot help wondering what exactly it is that they are doing for humans that compels them to continue to support the wasteful ruthless, exploitation of farm animals."
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    He says himself he rejects the new age bullshit, where you empathize with animals, and you say even trees talk to each other or are intelligent. you seem to be under the delusion that vegetarianism and veganism are under attack by the left. W hen exactly the opposite is true, you should know better than anyone that if you bring up vegetarianism in right wing circles you would be laughed out of the room probably welcomed with jokes about how delicious steak wrapped in bacon stuffed with shrimp is. What you dont seem to understand however is that animal rights is not universally hated, it is almost worshiped by the bourgeoisie to the point that we cant find a wealthy city on earth that does not have a humane society or some charity dinners to raise money for the endangered spotted owl or some shit.

    I think there is really a hatred of human beings that creates a love for animals, because animals are lacking in all the human traits that they despise so much they dont steal, they kill, they dont break hearts, or cause nuclear war. In fact you would struggle too find a single dictator or emperor or mass killer who did not have a fond love of animals, who didn't have loving pets, or didnt have a passion for ending animal cruelty

    everyone has this to some degree it doesn't take some brilliant philosophy or ideology to say that its bad to torture small animals in your basement for fun. Its rare to find places where sports like cockfighting or buzkashi, where there isnt some community of people who say the sport should be stopped and it is cruel to the animals and blah blah blah. So really why bother telling people at all that you are vegan? I have certain dietary restrictions too i dont speak about them, ever, or try to convert my friends and family to eat like me or scold them like I would habitual a drug abuser for not eating the way I do. Do you know that there are vegetarians who eat meat? Who consider it to be a bigger offense to push vegetarianism on others or too even refuse the gift of free food from somebody because it happens to be meat, to be a worse crime than simply eating the meat themselves. Even though they would never kill an animal or cook meat in their own homes?.You may not find them in America or Europe but they exist

    Then we have to ask where is the line? the line where eating something becomes not okay. You have to define it in scientific terms or its just hocus pocus, religious people who refuse to eat pigs or cows, can very easily determine what animal is not a pig or a cow. Where does a vegan say the line is crossed? I know its wrong to eat human beings, (I do not go around telling people how wrong it is to eat humans though lol) but what is a human, is very easy to define. What about you? Are bugs considered meat what about plants? what if I could show you 20 or so plant species that can feel some kind of pain? What if could genetically engineer an animal that feels no pain would it acceptable to eat him then? who do I ask these question to? where are the vegan scientists?

    Veganism can really be described as a theology because it is these sort of backward rituals, and superstitious medicinal claims that serve only to define and place humans above every other animal. And puts the committed vegan above the human. Because that is what you are calling meat eaters uneducated barbaric animals. You dont want the bears and the wolves to stop eating meat, just humans, because we are special and we have the ability to not be like the animals.
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    "Animal rights are not under attack by the left you stupid vegan; where do we draw the line of food hahaha."

    Where does a vegan say the line is crossed?
    The line is pretty obvious.
    Perhaps you will be able to comprehend this chart.

    Scientists scientifically separate life into two groups. Plants and Animals. Vegans argue it is wrong to exploit animals for the same reasons it is wrong to exploit humans.
    Vegetarians say its wrong to eat animals for the same reason it is wrong to eat humans. Only Vegetarianism is Dietary. Veganism is not dietary but a struggle against all animal oppression; Hence Vegan-Anarchism.
    I know its wrong to eat human beings, (I do not go around telling people how wrong it is to eat humans though lol) but what is a human, is very easy to define.
    And if you where not so ignorant of science you would realize it is also very simple to define what is Animal. Your argument is really fucking stupid actually.
    The question is why is it wrong to eat or exploit a human? You say it is wrong; why?
    Before you answer you realize that the reasons for not eating humans are the same reasons for not eating animals. Because scientifically Humans are Animals.
    "It is only by the abolition of the state, by the conquest of perfect liberty by the individual, by free agreement, association, and absolute free federation that we can reach Communism - the possession in common of our social inheritance, and the production in common of all riches." ~Peter Kropotkin
    "Let us fight to free the world - to do away with national barriers - to do away with greed, with hate and intolerance. Let us fight for a world of reason, a world where science and progress will lead to all men’s happiness. Soldiers! in the name of democracy, let us all unite!" ~Charles Chaplin
    "Communism is Anarchy. You can't regulate or reform your way to communism; it can only be achieved by direct action against state, class and capital."
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    "Animal rights are not under attack by the left you stupid vegan; where do we draw the line of food hahaha."



    The line is pretty obvious.
    Perhaps you will be able to comprehend this chart.

    Scientists scientifically separate life into two groups. Plants and Animals. Vegans argue it is wrong to exploit animals for the same reasons it is wrong to exploit humans.
    Vegetarians say its wrong to eat animals for the same reason it is wrong to eat humans. Only Vegetarianism is Dietary. Veganism is not dietary but a struggle against all animal oppression; Hence Vegan-Anarchism.


    And if you where not so ignorant of science you would realize it is also very simple to define what is Animal. Your argument is really fucking stupid actually.
    The question is why is it wrong to eat or exploit a human? You say it is wrong; why?
    Before you answer you realize that the reasons for not eating humans are the same reasons for not eating animals. Because scientifically Humans are Animals.
    oh okay so scientists have decided whats different between a plant and animal i didn't know that because I am an uneducated barbaric animal... well thats good I ll go buy some tofu now lol

    this kind of self righteous moral dogma is why you get mocked. so now we are talking non violence and why violence is wrong. I have an idea maybe the pigs and chickens should take a nonviolent stance against their oppressors than maybe we will stop eating them
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    Fuck WOw.
    Am I the only one seeing this shit?
    "It is only by the abolition of the state, by the conquest of perfect liberty by the individual, by free agreement, association, and absolute free federation that we can reach Communism - the possession in common of our social inheritance, and the production in common of all riches." ~Peter Kropotkin
    "Let us fight to free the world - to do away with national barriers - to do away with greed, with hate and intolerance. Let us fight for a world of reason, a world where science and progress will lead to all men’s happiness. Soldiers! in the name of democracy, let us all unite!" ~Charles Chaplin
    "Communism is Anarchy. You can't regulate or reform your way to communism; it can only be achieved by direct action against state, class and capital."
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    Fuck WOw.
    Am I the only one seeing this shit?
    I know it's amazing right?
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    He says himself he rejects the new age bullshit, where you empathize with animals, and you say even trees talk to each other or are intelligent. you seem to be under the delusion that vegetarianism and veganism are under attack by the left. W hen exactly the opposite is true, you should know better than anyone that if you bring up vegetarianism in right wing circles you would be laughed out of the room probably welcomed with jokes about how delicious steak wrapped in bacon stuffed with shrimp is. What you dont seem to understand however is that animal rights is not universally hated, it is almost worshiped by the bourgeoisie to the point that we cant find a wealthy city on earth that does not have a humane society or some charity dinners to raise money for the endangered spotted owl or some shit.

    I think there is really a hatred of human beings that creates a love for animals, because animals are lacking in all the human traits that they despise so much they dont steal, they kill, they dont break hearts, or cause nuclear war. In fact you would struggle too find a single dictator or emperor or mass killer who did not have a fond love of animals, who didn't have loving pets, or didnt have a passion for ending animal cruelty

    everyone has this to some degree it doesn't take some brilliant philosophy or ideology to say that its bad to torture small animals in your basement for fun. Its rare to find places where sports like cockfighting or buzkashi, where there isnt some community of people who say the sport should be stopped and it is cruel to the animals and blah blah blah. So really why bother telling people at all that you are vegan? I have certain dietary restrictions too i dont speak about them, ever, or try to convert my friends and family to eat like me or scold them like I would habitual a drug abuser for not eating the way I do. Do you know that there are vegetarians who eat meat? Who consider it to be a bigger offense to push vegetarianism on others or too even refuse the gift of free food from somebody because it happens to be meat, to be a worse crime than simply eating the meat themselves. Even though they would never kill an animal or cook meat in their own homes?.You may not find them in America or Europe but they exist

    Then we have to ask where is the line? the line where eating something becomes not okay. You have to define it in scientific terms or its just hocus pocus, religious people who refuse to eat pigs or cows, can very easily determine what animal is not a pig or a cow. Where does a vegan say the line is crossed? I know its wrong to eat human beings, (I do not go around telling people how wrong it is to eat humans though lol) but what is a human, is very easy to define. What about you? Are bugs considered meat what about plants? what if I could show you 20 or so plant species that can feel some kind of pain? What if could genetically engineer an animal that feels no pain would it acceptable to eat him then? who do I ask these question to? where are the vegan scientists?

    Veganism can really be described as a theology because it is these sort of backward rituals, and superstitious medicinal claims that serve only to define and place humans above every other animal. And puts the committed vegan above the human. Because that is what you are calling meat eaters uneducated barbaric animals. You dont want the bears and the wolves to stop eating meat, just humans, because we are special and we have the ability to not be like the animals.
    I will not repeat the points (A) made which are sufficient. I will add however that you don't go around telling people its wrong to eat humans, because eating humans barely happens. Eating animals is happening on a large scale, thats why people talk about that. Communists don't constantly go around saying the system in the roman empire was immoral, because that system is not around anymore. That is why we speak of an actual problem, capitalism.

    Science is neutral, there are no 'vegan scientists' just like there are, or ought to be, no christian scientists. There are certainly scientists who are vegan or christian, but adding a prefix to 'scientist' is stupid. What do you want to ask a 'vegan scientist', this implies they have a position, veganism, and that they will support this position regardless of science, hence why they are a vegan scientist. Science however is indeed conclusive in showing that meat and animal products are bad for health, if that is what you are trying to ask.

    Your theology argument is boring as fuck, nobody ever says that animals are above humans and you just try to put up a strawman. Then you say i call meat eaters uneducated barbaric animals, i never said this and you just try to paint my person in a certain way to discredit me, but not the argument. Its interesting to see that logical fallacies are the last hope for your vigorous defense of killing animals for pleasure.

    And yes I don't want the bears and wolves to stop eating meat, since as you point out, they don't have our abilities and can't reason if something is immoral. We can reason that putting animals in cages and killing them long before their natural lives just because we like the taste of their dead bodies in our mouth is indeed wrong. What is the difference between torturing animals in your basement for fun(a sensory satisfaction) or torturing and then eating animals in your basement for fun(a sensory satisfaction)?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Fuck WOw.
    Am I the only one seeing this shit?
    Im seeing this, not any actual argument, just basic strawmans and misrepresentations.

    - - - Updated - - -

    oh okay so scientists have decided whats different between a plant and animal i didn't know that because I am an uneducated barbaric animal... well thats good I ll go buy some tofu now lol

    this kind of self righteous moral dogma is why you get mocked. so now we are talking non violence and why violence is wrong. I have an idea maybe the pigs and chickens should take a nonviolent stance against their oppressors than maybe we will stop eating them
    Holy shit yes scientists have determined what is different between plants and animals. Plants have a cell wall, plants have chloroplast, plant cells go into turgor. There are numerous differences wtf?
    "I am vegan because I have compassion for animals; I see them as beings possessed of value not unlike humans. I am an anarchist because I have that same compassion for humans, and because I refuse to settle for compromised perspectives, half-assed strategies and sold-out objectives. As a radical, my approach to animal and human liberation is without compromise: total freedom for all, or else."

    "It takes no more time to be a vegetarian than to eat animal flesh.... When non-vegetarians say ‘human problems come first’ I cannot help wondering what exactly it is that they are doing for humans that compels them to continue to support the wasteful ruthless, exploitation of farm animals."
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    I will not repeat the points (A) made which are sufficient. I will add however that you don't go around telling people its wrong to eat humans, because eating humans barely happens. Eating animals is happening on a large scale, thats why people talk about that. Communists don't constantly go around saying the system in the roman empire was immoral, because that system is not around anymore. That is why we speak of an actual problem, capitalism.
    But whether or not humans eat meat has absolutely nothing to do with workers' relationships to the means of production. In fact, I would argue that discussing the flaws and nature of the Roman Empire, a class society, would have more relevance to the goals of communism than discussing ethics of meat eating and the nutritional values of dietary choices.

    Science is neutral, there are no 'vegan scientists' just like there are, or ought to be, no christian scientists. There are certainly scientists who are vegan or christian, but adding a prefix to 'scientist' is stupid. What do you want to ask a 'vegan scientist', this implies they have a position, veganism, and that they will support this position regardless of science, hence why they are a vegan scientist. Science however is indeed conclusive in showing that meat and animal products are bad for health, if that is what you are trying to ask.
    To claim that science is somehow 'neutral' is not true. I could point you towards two independent peer-reviewed studies on climate change that would come to different conclusions just as I could point towards studies relating to the consumption of meat that would either show its benefits or its negatives. Science is ideological. I think overall doctors would argue that leading a healthy life is about balance, moderation and avoiding processed foods with high sugar contents.

    Btw - Zizek also claimed that all vegetarians are degenerates that would turn back into monkeys, he was obviously playfully joking but it's clear he has a lot of disdain towards the sort of 'lifestyle' activist who would eschew class struggle.
    Modern democracy is nothing but the freedom to preach whatever is to the advantage of the bourgeoisie - Lenin

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    One of Zizek's basic points is that today we want to 'have our cake and eat it too'. We want to have some particular part of something without the negative aspects which are constitutive of the thing itself.
    That is, we want love without the 'falling' in love, beer without alcohol, bacon without the knowledge of the processes of its production. Ultimately, we want capitalism without the social antagonisms which are its constitutive element.

    Is Zizek giving a moral argument against the consumption of animals? No.
    Elsewhere Zizek states that nature is a void, a welter of meaningless accidents without any meaning unto-itself. Nature acquires meaning only through the horizon of society, through the eye of man and woman, outside of which there is simply the pointless void, the natural world.

    Human beings are animals. But through an utterly accidental chance, human consciousness emerged, and with it the social order (language, thought etc.). Outside of the social order there is simply nothing. Natural objects colliding, evolving, dying etc. according to natural laws which are themselves the product of accident, catastrophe and so on.

    That means that the only controversy relating to the butchery of animals is one that concerns only human beings themselves, our social practice. The animals themselves being unable to symbolically register their so-called 'exploitation' because they are unable to symbolically register... anything whatsoever.

    So Zizek is illustrating a point regarding his idea of 'fetishistic disavowal' rather than making some claim to the truth of ecology. But from your post I think you know already.
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    But whether or not humans eat meat has absolutely nothing to do with workers' relationships to the means of production. In fact, I would argue that discussing the flaws and nature of the Roman Empire, a class society, would have more relevance to the goals of communism than discussing ethics of meat eating and the nutritional values of dietary choices.


    To claim that science is somehow 'neutral' is not true. I could point you towards two independent peer-reviewed studies on climate change that would come to different conclusions just as I could point towards studies relating to the consumption of meat that would either show its benefits or its negatives. Science is ideological. I think overall doctors would argue that leading a healthy life is about balance, moderation and avoiding processed foods with high sugar contents.

    Btw - Zizek also claimed that all vegetarians are degenerates that would turn back into monkeys, he was obviously playfully joking but it's clear he has a lot of disdain towards the sort of 'lifestyle' activist who would eschew class struggle.
    I know very well that veganism has not much to do with class struggle, it has some overlap, but for now i think it is irrelevant. It is of course an objection to the total objectification of living beings under capitalism. It should be clear that I think liberation of labor goes above animal liberation. But that is if i have to choose, i don't have to choose, we can achieve both. I think its a moral obligation to fight against any exploitation human or non-human. This is also why i post this in science and environment, and not like i used to in discrimination. I do think animal exploitation is discrimination, but that is besides the point for now.

    about the science part i did not mean it in such hard terms. I mean that science is not based on ideology in such a strong sense. Finding evidence that sport is good for your joints for example is not ideology. And then promoting people to sport more is not ideology? Just because science can have conflicting results is not a product ideology, i think. If you think im missing something i would appreciate if you could explain further
    "I am vegan because I have compassion for animals; I see them as beings possessed of value not unlike humans. I am an anarchist because I have that same compassion for humans, and because I refuse to settle for compromised perspectives, half-assed strategies and sold-out objectives. As a radical, my approach to animal and human liberation is without compromise: total freedom for all, or else."

    "It takes no more time to be a vegetarian than to eat animal flesh.... When non-vegetarians say ‘human problems come first’ I cannot help wondering what exactly it is that they are doing for humans that compels them to continue to support the wasteful ruthless, exploitation of farm animals."
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    Hold on Veganism is a class struggle; you just dont acknowledge the class.
    Animals that we have breed are members of our society in the fact that they are sentient beings that serve a function in society just as we are.
    To the capitalist exploiting class; the working class are nothing more then beasts of burden; We treat animals in the same way.
    Veganism logically argues that if we dont want to be oppressed we must end oppression; we can not ourselves be oppressors if we seek freedom of oppression.

    Vegetarianism is dietary.
    Veganism is social.

    Vegetarians only dont eat meat and this can be for a myriad of reasons.
    Vegans stand against Animal oppression in all forms; not just eating them.

    A Vegetarian would say its wrong to eat humans; A Vegan would say its wrong to oppress humans.
    You can be Vegetarian and still be a Reactionary shit (Hitler);
    but to really be a Vegan you MUST be a Socialist. Veganism is about fighting the oppression of Animals (including humans).

    Close down the zoos for the same reason we will burn down the prisons.
    Stop massacring livestock for the same reason we would stop the massacre of children.
    Stop the consumption of animals for the same reason we would stop the consumption of humans.

    Because we respect non-human animals existence in the same way we respect the Human animals existence.
    "It is only by the abolition of the state, by the conquest of perfect liberty by the individual, by free agreement, association, and absolute free federation that we can reach Communism - the possession in common of our social inheritance, and the production in common of all riches." ~Peter Kropotkin
    "Let us fight to free the world - to do away with national barriers - to do away with greed, with hate and intolerance. Let us fight for a world of reason, a world where science and progress will lead to all men’s happiness. Soldiers! in the name of democracy, let us all unite!" ~Charles Chaplin
    "Communism is Anarchy. You can't regulate or reform your way to communism; it can only be achieved by direct action against state, class and capital."
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    Hold on Veganism is a class struggle; you just dont acknowledge the class.
    Animals that we have breed are members of our society in the fact that they are sentient beings that serve a function in society just as we are.
    To the capitalist exploiting class; the working class are nothing more then beasts of burden; We treat animals in the same way.
    Veganism logically argues that if we dont want to be oppressed we must end oppression; we can not ourselves be oppressors if we seek freedom of oppression.

    Vegetarianism is dietary.
    Veganism is social.

    Vegetarians only dont eat meat and this can be for a myriad of reasons.
    Vegans stand against Animal oppression in all forms; not just eating them.

    A Vegetarian would say its wrong to eat humans; A Vegan would say its wrong to oppress humans.
    You can be Vegetarian and still be a Reactionary shit (Hitler);
    but to really be a Vegan you MUST be a Socialist. Veganism is about fighting the oppression of Animals (including humans).

    Close down the zoos for the same reason we will burn down the prisons.
    Stop massacring livestock for the same reason we would stop the massacre of children.
    Stop the consumption of animals for the same reason we would stop the consumption of humans.

    Because we respect non-human animals existence in the same way we respect the Human animals existence.
    Yes i agree with all that i'm just not sure on using the world class because normally this is used to describe proletarians and bourgeouise etc. But i think that it is a true comparison.
    "I am vegan because I have compassion for animals; I see them as beings possessed of value not unlike humans. I am an anarchist because I have that same compassion for humans, and because I refuse to settle for compromised perspectives, half-assed strategies and sold-out objectives. As a radical, my approach to animal and human liberation is without compromise: total freedom for all, or else."

    "It takes no more time to be a vegetarian than to eat animal flesh.... When non-vegetarians say ‘human problems come first’ I cannot help wondering what exactly it is that they are doing for humans that compels them to continue to support the wasteful ruthless, exploitation of farm animals."
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    Hold on Veganism is a class struggle; you just dont acknowledge the class.
    Animals that we have breed are members of our society in the fact that they are sentient beings that serve a function in society just as we are.
    To the capitalist exploiting class; the working class are nothing more then beasts of burden; We treat animals in the same way.
    Whilst the metaphor is certainly apt, 'animals' (which is a broad term basically encompassing every living being on earth that is a heterotroph) do not act as a class and do not have 'class interests'. This is just ridiculous, my friend.

    about the science part i did not mean it in such hard terms. I mean that science is not based on ideology in such a strong sense. Finding evidence that sport is good for your joints for example is not ideology. And then promoting people to sport more is not ideology? Just because science can have conflicting results is not a product ideology, i think. If you think im missing something i would appreciate if you could explain further
    Just taking the example that you put forward, I feel proves how bound by ideology science is. Why research 'sport'? Why do humans differentiate working activity and leisure activity in the first place? Ideology is the reflection of the ideas and beliefs of society and, more clearly, it is the reflection of the ideas and beliefs of the ruling class of society. Science under capitalism very clearly reflects this - it is a part of the reproduction of the ideal conditions for production.
    Modern democracy is nothing but the freedom to preach whatever is to the advantage of the bourgeoisie - Lenin

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    Whilst the metaphor is certainly apt, 'animals' (which is a broad term basically encompassing every living being on earth that is a heterotroph) do not act as a class and do not have 'class interests'. This is just ridiculous, my friend.


    Just taking the example that you put forward, I feel proves how bound by ideology science is. Why research 'sport'? Why do humans differentiate working activity and leisure activity in the first place? Ideology is the reflection of the ideas and beliefs of society and, more clearly, it is the reflection of the ideas and beliefs of the ruling class of society. Science under capitalism very clearly reflects this - it is a part of the reproduction of the ideal conditions for production.
    Oh yes that makes sense. I did not understand you well before.
    "I am vegan because I have compassion for animals; I see them as beings possessed of value not unlike humans. I am an anarchist because I have that same compassion for humans, and because I refuse to settle for compromised perspectives, half-assed strategies and sold-out objectives. As a radical, my approach to animal and human liberation is without compromise: total freedom for all, or else."

    "It takes no more time to be a vegetarian than to eat animal flesh.... When non-vegetarians say ‘human problems come first’ I cannot help wondering what exactly it is that they are doing for humans that compels them to continue to support the wasteful ruthless, exploitation of farm animals."
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    Being normal in use does not make something true or correct.
    Hetero and Mono normality being an example of ideology seen as normal yet completely fabricated and detrimental to the lives of sentient beings for the benefit of others (oppression).

    But if you insist on normality look up the definition of Class and you will see how it applies to all animals who are part of our society.
    "It is only by the abolition of the state, by the conquest of perfect liberty by the individual, by free agreement, association, and absolute free federation that we can reach Communism - the possession in common of our social inheritance, and the production in common of all riches." ~Peter Kropotkin
    "Let us fight to free the world - to do away with national barriers - to do away with greed, with hate and intolerance. Let us fight for a world of reason, a world where science and progress will lead to all men’s happiness. Soldiers! in the name of democracy, let us all unite!" ~Charles Chaplin
    "Communism is Anarchy. You can't regulate or reform your way to communism; it can only be achieved by direct action against state, class and capital."
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    I will not repeat the points (A) made which are sufficient. I will add however that you don't go around telling people its wrong to eat humans, because eating humans barely happens. Eating animals is happening on a large scale, thats why people talk about that. Communists don't constantly go around saying the system in the roman empire was immoral, because that system is not around anymore. That is why we speak of an actual problem, capitalism.

    Science is neutral, there are no 'vegan scientists' just like there are, or ought to be, no christian scientists. There are certainly scientists who are vegan or christian, but adding a prefix to 'scientist' is stupid. What do you want to ask a 'vegan scientist', this implies they have a position, veganism, and that they will support this position regardless of science, hence why they are a vegan scientist. Science however is indeed conclusive in showing that meat and animal products are bad for health, if that is what you are trying to ask.

    Your theology argument is boring as fuck, nobody ever says that animals are above humans and you just try to put up a strawman. Then you say i call meat eaters uneducated barbaric animals, i never said this and you just try to paint my person in a certain way to discredit me, but not the argument. Its interesting to see that logical fallacies are the last hope for your vigorous defense of killing animals for pleasure.

    And yes I don't want the bears and wolves to stop eating meat, since as you point out, they don't have our abilities and can't reason if something is immoral. We can reason that putting animals in cages and killing them long before their natural lives just because we like the taste of their dead bodies in our mouth is indeed wrong. What is the difference between torturing animals in your basement for fun(a sensory satisfaction) or torturing and then eating animals in your basement for fun(a sensory satisfaction)?

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    Im seeing this, not any actual argument, just basic strawmans and misrepresentations.

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    Holy shit yes scientists have determined what is different between plants and animals. Plants have a cell wall, plants have chloroplast, plant cells go into turgor. There are numerous differences wtf?
    you dont worship animals anymore than jews worship pigs, you expect humans to have morals because they are better than the animals. if my argument was boring as fuck, as you say you'd think you'd be able to understand it. Did you think marx never heard of vegetarians before? Do you think that leftists in other cultures where religions that enforce vegetarianism give a fuck about your moralist dogma? Do you think they haven't heard this argument as much as your Christian community has told you to keep your legs closed until marriage? your rebelling against modern Christianity, if you were raised Hindu or even Quaker you wouldn't consider yourself such a rebel

    Are you a vegan because it makes you feel special? because your not
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    you dont worship animals anymore than jews worship pigs, you expect humans to have morals because they are better than the animals. if my argument was boring as fuck, as you say you'd think you'd be able to understand it. Did you think marx never heard of vegetarians before? Do you think that leftists in other cultures where religions that enforce vegetarianism give a fuck about your moralist dogma? Do you think they haven't heard this argument as much as your Christian community has told you to keep your legs closed until marriage? your rebelling against modern Christianity, if you were raised Hindu or even Quaker you wouldn't consider yourself such a rebel

    Are you a vegan because it makes you feel special? because your not
    What did i just read... You keep on making stupid claims about moralist dogma and how i feel special. You just keep on rambling without a trace of coherency.

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    Being normal in use does not make something true or correct.
    Hetero and Mono normality being an example of ideology seen as normal yet completely fabricated and detrimental to the lives of sentient beings for the benefit of others (oppression).

    But if you insist on normality look up the definition of Class and you will see how it applies to all animals who are part of our society.
    i know it doesnt and i dont disagree with you, i was just refraining from using those words so i would not create confusion or misunderstanding. In a strict sense it is of course right to use these terms.
    "I am vegan because I have compassion for animals; I see them as beings possessed of value not unlike humans. I am an anarchist because I have that same compassion for humans, and because I refuse to settle for compromised perspectives, half-assed strategies and sold-out objectives. As a radical, my approach to animal and human liberation is without compromise: total freedom for all, or else."

    "It takes no more time to be a vegetarian than to eat animal flesh.... When non-vegetarians say ‘human problems come first’ I cannot help wondering what exactly it is that they are doing for humans that compels them to continue to support the wasteful ruthless, exploitation of farm animals."
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    What did i just read... You keep on making stupid claims about moralist dogma and how i feel special. You just keep on rambling without a trace of coherency.

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    i know it doesnt and i dont disagree with you, i was just refraining from using those words so i would not create confusion or misunderstanding. In a strict sense it is of course right to use these terms.
    how can you compare the workers struggle to that of the chicken? how can you claim to support violent revolution but claim you wouldn't hurt a fly? Again your not alone most vegans are leftists in fact I know atleast one of the moderators here are vegans (although they have been around much since the purge).

    your not converting anyone to veganism, your not raising awareness for animals rights, your not protesting corporate owned farms. your asking why aren't all marxists vegans, by saying see look Zizek said something about animal rights once, so why do you dicks give me such hard time. I dont know what you expected to achieve with this thread.

    so please explain before I start posting pictures of barbecued pig skulls just to mock you
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    how can you compare the workers struggle to that of the chicken? how can you claim to support violent revolution but claim you wouldn't hurt a fly? Again your not alone most vegans are leftists in fact I know atleast one of the moderators here are vegans (although they have been around much since the purge).

    your not converting anyone to veganism, your not raising awareness for animals rights, your not protesting corporate owned farms. your asking why aren't all marxists vegans, by saying see look Zizek said something about animal rights once, so why do you dicks give me such hard time. I dont know what you expected to achieve with this thread.

    so please explain before I start posting pictures of barbecued pig skulls just to mock you
    When did i ever say i would not hurt a fly, im not against hurting animals or humans per se, i just dont want to do it when it is unnecessary, thats the difference between you and me.You think violence is something to be cheered on in any case, even when not legitimized by class struggle or self-defense etc. You force yourself in all kinds of turns to justify yourself eating animals just for pleasure. And then you go on how "youre not effective" bla bla bla.

    So please explain before i start posting pictures of children working in factories to mock you. How fucking pathetic would you find a bourgeoisie for saying shit like that? You're arguments are so infantile and not even worthy of serious evaluation.

    Why do you think its ethically justifiable to feed grain to pigs instead of to starving children? You're not showing your compassion for humans. Vegans take their principle of human liberation to the extreme and actually live their life according to their ideals. You just want to have a cool edgy communist image and keep on living like an entitled westerner.
    "I am vegan because I have compassion for animals; I see them as beings possessed of value not unlike humans. I am an anarchist because I have that same compassion for humans, and because I refuse to settle for compromised perspectives, half-assed strategies and sold-out objectives. As a radical, my approach to animal and human liberation is without compromise: total freedom for all, or else."

    "It takes no more time to be a vegetarian than to eat animal flesh.... When non-vegetarians say ‘human problems come first’ I cannot help wondering what exactly it is that they are doing for humans that compels them to continue to support the wasteful ruthless, exploitation of farm animals."
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    how can you compare the workers struggle to that of the chicken? how can you claim to support violent revolution but claim you wouldn't hurt a fly? Again your not alone most vegans are leftists in fact I know atleast one of the moderators here are vegans (although they have been around much since the purge).

    your not converting anyone to veganism, your not raising awareness for animals rights, your not protesting corporate owned farms. your asking why aren't all marxists vegans, by saying see look Zizek said something about animal rights once, so why do you dicks give me such hard time. I dont know what you expected to achieve with this thread.

    so please explain before I start posting pictures of barbecued pig skulls just to mock you
    There's no reason to do such things or be so frustrated. Earlier in the thread, IbelieveInanarchy wrote, "It should be clear that I think liberation of labor goes above animal liberation.". I think you should take them at their word in this case.

    I'm of the opinion that the agricultural industry and the food industry in general are, obviously, run in capitalism on a profit-basis and thus have practices that are both harmful to the environment as a whole and inherently wasteful and excessive. But change in these industries can only come through the sort of collective planning and organisation of society that will only be possible in communism. I give the benefit of the doubt and think IbelieveInanarchy understands this - if they have differing ideas of what that 'change' will be is irrelevant when taking into account the realisation that it can only happen once capitalism has been destroyed. Maybe I'm just being too charitable or whatever but regardless there's no need to castigate them, perhaps
    Modern democracy is nothing but the freedom to preach whatever is to the advantage of the bourgeoisie - Lenin

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