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Thread: Veganism

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  1. #1
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    Default Veganism

    What is your guys/girls stance on eating meat and animal products? and do you think that threating animals like shit is discrimination or not? Looking forward to see some opinions from the left on this issue
  2. #2
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    I was just thinking about how hard it is not to eat meat so Vegan Anarchists are some dedicated people.
    I am struggling to stop eating meat but its not easy for me.
    "It is only by the abolition of the state, by the conquest of perfect liberty by the individual, by free agreement, association, and absolute free federation that we can reach Communism - the possession in common of our social inheritance, and the production in common of all riches." ~Peter Kropotkin
    "Let us fight to free the world - to do away with national barriers - to do away with greed, with hate and intolerance. Let us fight for a world of reason, a world where science and progress will lead to all men’s happiness. Soldiers! in the name of democracy, let us all unite!" ~Charles Chaplin
    "Communism is Anarchy. You can't regulate or reform your way to communism; it can only be achieved by direct action against state, class and capital."
  3. #3
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    Thanks for your reply . any particular reason you want to stop eating it?
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    I cant stand caged animals; The environmental impact of the meat industry Is a large contributor to pollution and overall the industry is directly tied to capitalist imperialism.
    The food and water resources alone it takes to supply a diet high in meat products causes famine and deforestation. Our mean industry would be impossible if we wanted to end economic
    exploitation and to feed everyone on earth effectively.

    But mostly my love for our fellow animals.
    "It is only by the abolition of the state, by the conquest of perfect liberty by the individual, by free agreement, association, and absolute free federation that we can reach Communism - the possession in common of our social inheritance, and the production in common of all riches." ~Peter Kropotkin
    "Let us fight to free the world - to do away with national barriers - to do away with greed, with hate and intolerance. Let us fight for a world of reason, a world where science and progress will lead to all men’s happiness. Soldiers! in the name of democracy, let us all unite!" ~Charles Chaplin
    "Communism is Anarchy. You can't regulate or reform your way to communism; it can only be achieved by direct action against state, class and capital."
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  6. #5
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    I eat what's tasty and cheap, meat is tasty and cheap. The problems are structural, not eating meat would amount to nothing except maybe feeling good about myself for doing something "moral" /which now I wouldn't even feel good cause it doesn't mean much to me anymore), no thanks. It's like when I was a kid adults telling us that we should eat everything on the plate because there are people starving, like that doing that changes anything.
    Last edited by Full Metal Bolshevik; 24th October 2016 at 07:15.
  7. #6
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    Vegan Anarchists take food out of herbivorous animal's mouth, damned opportunists !
    Any anti-communist is a dog. - Jean-Paul Sartre.
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    I eat what's tasty and cheap, meat is tasty and cheap. The problems are structural, not eating meat would amount to nothing except maybe feeling good about myself for doing something "moral" /which now I wouldn't even feel good cause it doesn't mean much to me anymore), no thanks. It's like when I was a kid adults telling us that we should eat everything on the plate because there are people starving, like that doing that changes anything.
    Where did you get the idea that meat is cheaper than plant products? And do you like the taste of the meat or do you like the taste of the herbs you put on it for taste?

    About your "structural problem" don't you think structural problems can be solved by collective action? I.e if people get paid too little, they strike and force the industry to give higher wages. Or for example if clothes are made in china under bad conditions, dont you think it would help if the western consumers stopped buying these clothes?
    dont you think the same applies to meat and dairy industry where less demand will generate less supply = less suffering for animals.

    thanks for your reply! V
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    It is just another symptom showing complete and utter bankruptcy of the contemporary left. Why do these fuckers even identify with the left? It is well known who spoke of animal suffering and they were worst butchers of international proletariat and communism.

    "Animal suffering" LOL.
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  11. #9
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    It is just another symptom showing complete and utter bankruptcy of the contemporary left. Why do these fuckers even identify with the left? It is well known who spoke of animal suffering and they were worst butchers of international proletariat and communism.

    "Animal suffering" LOL.
    can you explain how it shows bankruptcy of the left? isnt the left historically the political side who sticks up for the less powerfull?
    and can you please elaborate on your last sentence and the "animal suffering"?
  12. #10
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    can you explain how it shows bankruptcy of the left? isnt the left historically the political side who sticks up for the less powerfull?
    and can you please elaborate on your last sentence and the "animal suffering"?
    The left historically takes the side of proletariat in the existing social antagonism (which concerns solely human beings as society itself is a human category). Animals do not belong in this category, animals do not feel anything, are not actually even aware of themselves or their surroundings, they are nothing but biological machines (as another member put it earlier) "programmed" to elicit certain responses in contact with the environment. That is it. Their existence is totally congruent with nature. There is no social dimension in any animal habitat. Man conquers nature, while animal is in every sense subservient to it. This 'animal rights' thing ultimately rests on the superstition of late capitalism that there ultimately is some "balance" in the universe, some higher meaning that we are threatening with our insistence to manipulate natural world. The left needs to clearly and resolutely distance itself from this disgusting fetishization of all that is green and natural. Let fascists care about animals, we know who we fight for.
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  14. #11
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    The left historically takes the side of proletariat in the existing social antagonism (which concerns solely human beings as society itself is a human category). Animals do not belong in this category, animals do not feel anything, are not actually even aware of themselves or their surroundings, they are nothing but biological machines (as another member put it earlier) "programmed" to elicit certain responses in contact with the environment. That is it. Their existence is totally congruent with nature. There is no social dimension in any animal habitat. Man conquers nature, while animal is in every sense subservient to it. This 'animal rights' thing ultimately rests on the superstition of late capitalism that there ultimately is some "balance" in the universe, some higher meaning that we are threatening with our insistence to manipulate natural world. The left needs to clearly and resolutely distance itself from this disgusting fetishization of all that is green and natural. Let fascists care about animals, we know who we fight for.
    i cant tell if youre trolling or not, in case youre not:
    youre observation that animals are not self-aware is in direct contrast with modern science (Toward a general psychobiological theory of emotions, Author: jaak sankepp) There are hundreds of articles like this which prove self-awareness and pain sensation.
    They are biological machines only in the same exact sense as humans are, or do you think a brain and a nervous system works completely different in non-human animals? Unless you can give a definite difference between non-human and human animals, your remarks are purely discriminatory and not based on any facts.

    Not sure what you mean with no social construct in animal habitats, but in case i think i know what you mean there is this: Kin Selection, Social Structure, Gene Flow, and the Evolution of Chimpanzees. author: philipp A. Morin

    Your point about late capitalism isn't clear to me since i never invoked some "higher meaning". I only pose that to threat anyone as inferior purely based on their intelligence, class, race, species or social class is amoral.

    Im gonna ignore your facist-bait.
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    Where did you get the idea that meat is cheaper than plant products? And do you like the taste of the meat or do you like the taste of the herbs you put on it for taste?

    About your "structural problem" don't you think structural problems can be solved by collective action? I.e if people get paid too little, they strike and force the industry to give higher wages. Or for example if clothes are made in china under bad conditions, dont you think it would help if the western consumers stopped buying these clothes?
    dont you think the same applies to meat and dairy industry where less demand will generate less supply = less suffering for animals.

    thanks for your reply! V
    I got that idea from the supermarkets At least where I live I can get meat for a low price, and I actually don't put many herbs on my meat, my meat has just salt, sometimes garlic (which alone won't feed me).

    I can't choose for everyone, only for me, so my actions are indeed worthless unless I started campaigning and organizing to make people stop eating meat, which I won't because I don't care. In the end, most of those problems you mentioned are caused by capitalism, the center left likes to fight those problems individually through reforms, we recognize the bigger problem and it's that one we focus on, and if we have to recognize that reforms can help the working class in the short term and it's worth fighting for it leaving ideological purity aside, other leftists have to start recognizing that we need a complete change of the system and that their measures are not enough.

    Also animals can feel and do suffer, but they cannot explain it nor understand it.
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  17. #13
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    I got that idea from the supermarkets At least where I live I can get meat for a low price, and I actually don't put many herbs on my meat, my meat has just salt, sometimes garlic (which alone won't feed me).

    I can't choose for everyone, only for me, so my actions are indeed worthless unless I started campaigning and organizing to make people stop eating meat, which I won't because I don't care. In the end, most of those problems you mentioned are caused by capitalism, the center left likes to fight those problems individually through reforms, we recognize the bigger problem and it's that one we focus on, and if we have to recognize that reforms can help the working class in the short term and it's worth fighting for it leaving ideological purity aside, other leftists have to start recognizing that we need a complete change of the system and that their measures are not enough.

    Also animals can feel and do suffer, but they cannot explain it nor understand it.
    hey thanks for your reply.

    Personally i never saw any place where meat is cheaper then vegetables. Im speaking in general terms here but on average vegetables have to be cheaper because they cost less energy and labor to produce in comparison to meat.

    Do you not care for environmental issues while there is still capitalism? i find it kind of ironic how a (i presume) communist can defend the most obvious case of exploitative capitalism, the meat and dairy industry, because they deliver relatively cheap products.
    I always had the impression that the left cares for the proletariat, and with that i mean the global proletariat. It is widely known that eating meat causes the poor to have less to eat (U.S. could feed 800 million people with grain that livestock eat, Cornell ecologist advises animal scientists, cornell university). How is it justifiable to 1. hurt animals for no good reason. 2 by extension hurt the worlds poor because there are preventable famines because of this. 3 hurt the environment for no good reason, hurting the proletariat of the future. (The Triple Whopper Environmental Impact of Global Meat Production, Time magazine)

    Of course i don't propose to just fight this direct symptom of capitalism and then just leave capitalism alone. But i think if you want to change something you have to change yourself first. Protesting and writing on a leftist forum alone wont change the world, i think leading by example does, for example doing volunteer work for the poor, or join strikes at a union will inspire other people to change to. The nihilist view that "my actions wont change anything" never caused any revolution.

    to your point of animals feel and suffer but cant explain this pain. I dont see how this makes it okay to hurt someone, a human infant does feel pain but cant explain it to, i dont see how it would be okay to hurt the infant.
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  19. #14
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    I'm probably going to repost this link in every thread on this subject. Forever.

    Tl;dr version:
    1. Animals are part of society. Seeing animals as "outside" society is ideological.
    2. Industrial animal agriculture is fucked.
    3. Veganism or other consumer choices are fine, but won't actually be in any way sufficient. Gotta overthrow capitalism.

    The only addition I'd make is that, in a colonial context, veganism can take on a deeply problematic character. White vegans lecturing indigenous folk about not hunting seals is fucked.
    The life we have conferred upon these objects confronts us as something hostile and alien.

    Formerly Virgin Molotov Cocktail (11/10/2004 - 21/08/2013)
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  21. #15
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    Tl;dr version:
    1. Animals are part of society. Seeing animals as "outside" society is ideological.
    2. Industrial animal agriculture is fucked.
    3. Veganism or other consumer choices are fine, but won't actually be in any way sufficient. Gotta overthrow capitalism.

    The only addition I'd make is that, in a colonial context, veganism can take on a deeply problematic character. White vegans lecturing indigenous folk about not hunting seals is fucked.
    Thanks for your response.

    of course i don't propose to directly make indigenous people stop hunting seals, but you should support them to do agriculture, if possible since seals dont seem to live in areas where you can really do agriculuture haha.

    But that of course is a very very small problem of the total exploitation done to non-human animals. It would be nice if indigenous people stopped killing endangered species though.
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    One simply has to wonder just what kind of ideas these people have in mind when they declare themselves Communists. Probably some garbage from John Lennon's "Imagine". Do they imagine that after we overthrow capitalism we will actually stop utilizing technology, that we will stop absolutely ravaging all that is green and natural on this planet because "animals are just like us, they are just weaker and we are on the side of the weak". No we won't, this process will accelerate enormously in communism. And i wonder where will you stand then, when due to geoengineering we start destroying countless ecosystems, habitats and millions upon millions of species, all for the sake of the reproduction of our society. The destruction these processes will cause will be on a scale so much greater than the sum total of all desctruction meat industry caused. When we technologize every single aspect of human existence, from physical reproduction to eventually immortality, do you think there will be place for animals in this world? No, they will be long forgotten by then, only remembered in history books as a testament to how shameful and pathetic our "natural" past was.

    Can anyone actually explain how are animal rights compatible with Communism, which represents self-conscious domination and control of all natural processes at the hands of man? How can this be reconciled with belief that all species are of equal value or what have you. By believing in this, you are implicitly condemning all the progress brought by industrial revolutions, technologies etc.. Hard to imagine that someone who believes in this would be on the side of Jacobins 250 years ago, let alone actual Communists who succeeded them.
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  24. #17
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    One simply has to wonder just what kind of ideas these people have in mind when they declare themselves Communists. Probably some garbage from John Lennon's "Imagine". Do they imagine that after we overthrow capitalism we will actually stop utilizing technology, that we will stop absolutely ravaging all that is green and natural on this planet because "animals are just like us, they are just weaker and we are on the side of the weak". No we won't, this process will accelerate enormously in communism. And i wonder where will you stand then, when due to geoengineering we start destroying countless ecosystems, habitats and millions upon millions of species, all for the sake of the reproduction of our society. The destruction these processes will cause will be on a scale so much greater than the sum total of all desctruction meat industry caused. When we technologize every single aspect of human existence, from physical reproduction to eventually immortality, do you think there will be place for animals in this world? No, they will be long forgotten by then, only remembered in history books as a testament to how shameful and pathetic our "natural" past was.

    Can anyone actually explain how are animal rights compatible with Communism, which represents self-conscious domination and control of all natural processes at the hands of man? How can this be reconciled with belief that all species are of equal value or what have you. By believing in this, you are implicitly condemning all the progress brought by industrial revolutions, technologies etc.. Hard to imagine that someone who believes in this would be on the side of Jacobins 250 years ago, let alone actual Communists who succeeded them.
    This is a prime example of a God-complex communist.
    Man is god and above the material world. We are not complex animals but divine beings.
    "It is only by the abolition of the state, by the conquest of perfect liberty by the individual, by free agreement, association, and absolute free federation that we can reach Communism - the possession in common of our social inheritance, and the production in common of all riches." ~Peter Kropotkin
    "Let us fight to free the world - to do away with national barriers - to do away with greed, with hate and intolerance. Let us fight for a world of reason, a world where science and progress will lead to all men’s happiness. Soldiers! in the name of democracy, let us all unite!" ~Charles Chaplin
    "Communism is Anarchy. You can't regulate or reform your way to communism; it can only be achieved by direct action against state, class and capital."
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  26. #18
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    One simply has to wonder just what kind of ideas these people have in mind when they declare themselves Communists. Probably some garbage from John Lennon's "Imagine". Do they imagine that after we overthrow capitalism we will actually stop utilizing technology, that we will stop absolutely ravaging all that is green and natural on this planet because "animals are just like us, they are just weaker and we are on the side of the weak". No we won't, this process will accelerate enormously in communism. And i wonder where will you stand then, when due to geoengineering we start destroying countless ecosystems, habitats and millions upon millions of species, all for the sake of the reproduction of our society. The destruction these processes will cause will be on a scale so much greater than the sum total of all desctruction meat industry caused. When we technologize every single aspect of human existence, from physical reproduction to eventually immortality, do you think there will be place for animals in this world? No, they will be long forgotten by then, only remembered in history books as a testament to how shameful and pathetic our "natural" past was.

    Can anyone actually explain how are animal rights compatible with Communism, which represents self-conscious domination and control of all natural processes at the hands of man? How can this be reconciled with belief that all species are of equal value or what have you. By believing in this, you are implicitly condemning all the progress brought by industrial revolutions, technologies etc.. Hard to imagine that someone who believes in this would be on the side of Jacobins 250 years ago, let alone actual Communists who succeeded them.
    You seem to lack basic understanding of biology and ecology, to erase all animals from the planet as you propose would quikly lead to the destruction of the whole human population. Other than that you never gave any observable evidence of any of your claims so i think it is best you and i stop debating this topic.

    I also dont see how in your communist ideal world it would be somehow the best option to choose to eradicate everything except for humans themselves. Do you just see humans as worker-ants?
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  28. #19
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    Only humans give meaning to things, so I don't see why you should put anything above ourselves. We shouldn't destroy nature for the sake of destroying it but to use it for our own purposes, yes right now we are dependent on nature, but it's not inevitable, we should one day master the world around us.

    Rafiq has a few long posts about this issue, you should look for them.

    edit:: Here's a topic, http://www.revleft.com/vb/threads/19...gist-arguments
    I recall reading more posts, it's just a matter of searching for them.
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    Only humans give meaning to things, so I don't see why you should put anything above ourselves.

    Rafiq has a few long posts about this issue, you should look for them.

    edit:: Here's a topic,
    I recall reading more posts, it's just a matter of searching for them.
    In order not to necro that thread i will respond here and pm him if he is interested in joining the dicussion on this thread.

    I dont see why you think only humans give meaning to things, can you elaborate?

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