Is it different than asking if it's ever ok to buy anything because it supports capitalism?
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Is it ever okay to call the police?
We all know about how the police are an organ of the state, meant to suppress the proletariat. But, they also have the power to stop certain crimes (for example, they could arrest a fascist who assaults a worker). However, using the police may make them seem more legitimate. So, in the absence of an armed body of workers to protect certain communities, is there ever any situation in which it would be okay to call the police?
Is it different than asking if it's ever ok to buy anything because it supports capitalism?
Good question. This reminds me of an argument I had a while ago, where I said class conscious workers shouldn't get jobs as police officers because that's harmful to the proletariat, and the other comrade responded with, "But, aren't all jobs in capitalism harmful to the proletariat?" Even if that's true, I still think some jobs are significantly more harmful than others. For example, being a cashier would really only be detrimental to that one worker (as far as I know), because they would not be paid for all of the value they created. On the other hand, being a police officer would be harmful to many workers, since you would crush working class movements and rebellions. Given the choice between the two, I'd choose to be a cashier, because that's less harmful.
I suppose the "no ethical consumption under capitalism" thing is meant to make you realize that you must consume certain goods (like food) made under capitalism, so don't worry about those too much, but it seems like you could cut back on consuming goods that aren't necessary to keep living, and that would be more ethical. Perhaps that's the answer here? If your life is in danger, then call the cops, but otherwise don't? I don't know, I'd like a deeper discussion than a "proof by analogy," which, as Bjarne Stroustrup says, is fraud.
No, it is not. Snitching is not cool. The cops are violent enemies of the proletariat who deserve neither respect nor legitimacy. They'll probably jump in to help the fascist and give them a high five after. It is not comparable to not buying organic food or some shit. You will be collaborating with the state.
Lenin says it is stupid not to take advantages of any institutions the bourgeoise gives us, for example he wrote a significant amount about how people should take seats in parliament (and indeed the Bolsheviks sat in the 1907 duma). The police are a corrupt institution, but so are all institutions in bourgeoise society. And just because an institution is bourgeoise does not mean that the people or laws are even that bad, our societies are infinitely more liberal than others, again, this is not a good thing since capitalism still exists, and we must not fall into the trap of becoming 'the slave who is grateful to his master' but lets take advantage of any institutions the bourgeoise makes available.
However, I believe you have no obligation to follow bourgeoise laws, as per example the numerous bank robberies by the Bolsheviks to fund the revolution.
AFAIK the Bolsheviks didn't view Okhrana as something remotely progressive. There's a difference between using parliament as a platform for agitation(a crappy tactic alone at that) and informing the police. Representative democracy is a bourgeois-democratic right won by the struggles of the masses. Police are an instrument of repression. You could use legal work to aid an insurrection, but none have snitched their way to revolution. Socialist shouldn't help cops in their anti-worker counterinsurgency. Not just on ethical grounds but for good security culture.
1312!
"It is only by the abolition of the state, by the conquest of perfect liberty by the individual, by free agreement, association, and absolute free federation that we can reach Communism - the possession in common of our social inheritance, and the production in common of all riches." ~Peter Kropotkin
"Let us fight to free the world - to do away with national barriers - to do away with greed, with hate and intolerance. Let us fight for a world of reason, a world where science and progress will lead to all men’s happiness. Soldiers! in the name of democracy, let us all unite!" ~Charles Chaplin
"Communism is Anarchy. You can't regulate or reform your way to communism; it can only be achieved by direct action against state, class and capital."
Well i'd agree on the Okhrana but I think there is a distinction between an intelligence agency such as the CIA or MI6, and say, a local police force enforcing public order. If they happen to be abusing their power, or using it to enforce unjust laws i'd agree. There is also the point that police may be taken from the proletariat themselves, many soldiers for example joined the Bolsheviks. It's just a case of class consciousness.
I would disagree I would think that you should use police for whatever you can, don't worry about hypocrisy, also how do I change my profile pic?
The Russian army was a conscription force drawn from the workers and peasants. Cops are closer to a lumpenproletarian gang. There is no "good cops". They can't be class conscious proletarians because they're not proletarians.
Is lumpenproletarian even a relevant term nowadays?
The police perform duties that would most likely still be necessary in a socialist society, like conducting investigations, directing traffic, and other emergency services, like managing disaster or search and rescue situations, among other things. These duties could (should) and sometimes are conducted by other organizations, but the fact is that many are currently the sole or primary responsibility of the police. Therefore, as long as there aren't better options out there for the service required, you have something to lose by not involving the police -- especially in emergency situations. If you thought your daughter was kidnapped, for example, would you not call the police to help rescue her? Your choice is, would you rather have a group of well-meaning, but sorely inexperienced neighbors, friends, and relatives running around looking for her, or have that as well as a network of people with access to cutting-edge locating technology, years of experience dealing with similar situations, and dogs that can sniff her out.
Last edited by Riot; 22nd October 2016 at 05:09.
It depends on the situation. Should you call the cops because you see your neighbors smoking weed in their backyard? Obviously not. Should an elderly person call the cops if someone is trying to break into their house? Yeah probably. Real life has a way of exceeding political expectations. If we were free to conduct our own affairs without fear of legal repercussion then yes it would always be stupid to call the police since you would be capable of dealing with any situation as it arises but that's not the world we live in. If you go around dishing out vigilante justice, you're bound to end up in jail yourself. Sometimes you have to buy a commodity, sometimes you can get away with stealing it. It's a question of self preservation. Perhaps others are willing to die for the sake of ideological purity and they should feel free to do so in that case, but imo it is sometimes OK to call the cops.
It is an extremely relevant term! As the capitalist mode of industry destroys small producers, many have fell under the radar and become dependent on welfare, this is not due to the lack of work or production, but the inefficiencies identified in capitalism by Marx. In the UK, Northern Areas in particular have been strongly damaged by global competition and cheap labour from countries with poor labour laws.
I get the impression that cops may be different in other posters' cities, or they have a different life experiences. The cops are fucking assholes IME and I'd be just afraid of getting the shit beat out of me and getting arrested calling them. Calling them was just something you didn't do growing up(or now for that matter).I think the actual proletariat and its "reserve army of labor" is often mislabeled "lumpenproletariat". It's misused and sometimes overused term. This seems more like rationalization from organization based on petit-bourgeois intellectuals and labor aristocrats that have failed to go deep into the masses. Fact is the proletariat(and other laboring classes like the peasantry) does experience unemployment, homeless, arrest, imprisonment and some turn to crime for support.
Often when discussing the lumpenproletariat, this section of the 18th Brumarie of Louis Bonaparte will be used as the definition:So people who commit crimes and the poor would appear to be the lumpenproletariat. However, if you look at the other sentences in the paragraph:Originally Posted by Karl Marxhttps://www.marxists.org/archive/mar...maire/ch05.htm
Marx is describing something closer to the AUC, Contras, Blackshirts, Pinkertons or Blackwater. Basically a mercenary strata. The lumpenproletariat's productive relations with the bourgeoisie is that of its paramilitary, in the form of the Society of December 10 in this case.
I'd say that cops are closer to organized crime and mercenaries in productive relations and not exploited like the proletariat. They do not engage in productive labor nor are they a reserve of labor, but are parasitic to the bourgeoisie. Often police are one and the same with organized crime. They aren't "workers in uniform" but enemies of the workers, and it's been proven time and time again with the union busting, attacks on protesters, infiltration of progressive and revolutionary movements and violent attacks on oppressed peoples.I don't think it's useful to think of the lumpenproletariat as people who need welfare. What Marx and Engels call pauperism was always a thing with the proletariat.Originally Posted by Bolshevik 180
Just going to reply to this point, as it seems partially directed at my comment. Yes, cops suck. We all can get behind you there. I wonder though -- it must be pretty bad where you are, if you wouldn't even call the police to use them for a service like search and rescue of a kidnapped child. I didn't think the corruption had gotten that bad yet in the US (where it sounds like you may be from) -- maybe in parts of Russia, but not in the West.
I get your point though -- the general effect a police battalion have on a city is mad. These "public servants" usually see their role as the hard-ass step-fathers of everyone except those who are visibly and obviously of the upper-bourgeoisie (and people like well-to-do preachers), who they simper and bow before. They are like an abusive alcohol, drunk on their little piece of power, yet at heart usually the utmost of cowards). These men and women truly constitute an abysmally reactionary institution.
One recent, worrying development I've seen with the police is the transformation of the most liberal public and private infrastructure (old buildings built in more democratic times, etc.) where things like parking garages are constructed, which are secretly police bases/watchtowers, and all private space (and books) in libraries are eliminated, in favor of open space, uncomfortable seating, and the overall design of a prison, except with brighter colors of paint on the walls, perhaps.
But the worst policeman is inside peoples' heads, as they used to say in the '60s. If you ever walk on your typical college campus in the US these days, for example, you can just feel the youths' insecurity and fear of each other emanating out of their every gesture, for whatever (largely unclear, imaginary) reasons. The institution of the police isn't just a problem of police violence and oppressiveness, but is an architectural/urban development and psychological problem as well. I'd even suggest that the police, as an institution, is primarily a psychological problem for revolutionaries and others who take Enlightenment principles seriously.
Honestly your example of a child kidnapping is probably one of the few examples that's understandable. You just won't catch me saying anything positive about pigs.
There's a contradiction, between the people's demand for protection from violent crime on one hand, or more commonly punishment after the fact, and the same repressive anti-people state institutions being the one with the power to provide this protection. Various grassroots restorative justice efforts aside, most aren't in a position(or forced into a position) for an alternative in many countries.It's like a big panopticon. I fear that as capitalism degenerates, it'll only get worse.Their fear aren't entirely without basis. 1/3 Americans will get arrested by 23. One in three! That has a chilling effect even on the other 2/3. Seems like it promotes an individualist outlook. Probably the fear is one of the biggest threats to subjective factors of organizing.
I nominate John's reply #15 for post of the year. This little comment by Marx popped out at me though:
Wait a minute...
Goddammit, organ grinders provide a *service* -- !!
x D
it depends on, whether or not you calling the police will result in you getting arrested yourself, and also if your able to solve whatever problem your having by yourself or not. the police aren't your friends and depending on what country you live in, might be corrupt and illiterate as fuck. The police are like any another human being, and usually terrified half the time theyre doing their job.
