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  1. #1
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    Ok, so after looking at some recent discussions on the internet I found some criticisms of marx's labor theory of value. I hope some people can help refute these points. Just be concise with it please.

    1)
    Production process only loosely determines price. Price is a function of customer preference, choice and negotiating power. In economic terms, elasticity somewhat explains this albeit on marginal change. Again, as I said earlier, things often start with the customer and not the resources.

    I recommend you read Michael Porter's "On Competition". Porter's 5 forces offer some good explanations for industry profitability and why some industries are more profitable than others. The key points are generally relevant at the company level as well.

    As an example, ask yourself why Gilead prices its drugs roughly 8x more than their wage costs while Accenture prices its services only 2x their wage costs, if not less (these are really rough estimates on my part but the magnitude of difference is a good ballpark estimate). Both companies employ expensive talent that delivers highly valued products or services (MBA's vs. PhD's). Yet Gilead generates roughly $4.7 million dollars of revenue per employee while Accenture generates roughly $119k of revenues per employee. If wages were a primary factor you would expect a reasonably similar result.

    The answer is that Accenture is a consulting group that, with some exception, bills out talent by the hour the way a law firm or accounting firm would. So wages directly determine their revenues. Gilead prices its drugs, most notably its Hepatitis C drug, relative to other treatments. The price of the drug has absolutely no relation to wages. Point being, the relationship between wage costs and price varies significantly across companies and industries and generic statements about the relationship between wages and revenues are flawed.
    2)
    the labor theory of value:

    1. All wealth must be created by labor (this is a fact, it takes some form of work to make anything)

    2. Commodities are wealth that is sold (creating value, a very limited idea)

    3. Therefor labor creates value (ie the money u get from selling stuff)

    Except when you're creating something that no-one will buy. Wealth isn't a fixed thing, it isn't objective. Something is valuable because somebody desires it, not because somebody spent time making it.

    To give a RL example, in the USSR, their was a factory that made jeans so terrible that nobody brought them. It wasn't creating wealth; heck it was destroying it. It was turning a useful material (fabric) into something nobody wanted.
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    Has neoclassical economics – sometimes called marginalism – destroyed the labor theory of value?
    http://rdwolff.com/content/has-neocl...r-theory-value

    Marginalism has not destroyed the labor theory of value except in the minds of fundamentalist marginalists. The marginalist school of economics that emerged in and after the 1870s in Europe – and nowadays usually called neoclassical economics - was an alternative to and thus a competitor for the labor theory of value. These were and are alternative ways to think about the market relationships - exchange values or prices - between commodities produced for sale.

    Marginalism focused on desire - how different people felt about/preferred one commodity to another, working and income versus leisure. It explained both the demand for goods and also the supply of labor that produced those goods as outcomes of people’s preferences. Their focus on preferences and demand made them disregard or simply ignore other factors shaping supply, demand and thus prices.

    In contrast, Marx's labor theory of value focused on the "toil and trouble" that went into producing everything and that shaped its exchange value or price [it is important to remember, by the way, that the chief expositors of labor theories of value before Marx were Smith and Ricardo]. Marx's focus on labor made preferences and demand secondary, although Marx explicitly kept them in the picture. To say that marginalism has destroyed Marx's labor theory of value is a little like saying that knives and forks destroyed chopsticks as ways of eating. It is far better to recognize that these are two different, alternative ways to eat; they are two different ways to experience eating.

    Marginalism and Marx's labor theory of value are different ways to think about economies; they contribute to different ways to act inside those economies and different ways to identify and solve those societies' problems. What matters are their differences and the social consequences of those differences. A debate over which manner of eating is “right” or “correct” – chopsticks or knife and fork – would strike most of us as absurd; the same applies to a debate over whether marginalism or the labor theory of value is “correct.” When advocates of one theory claim it has “disproved” or “destroyed” another, that is just a ploy to dissuade their audiences from inquiring about how the other works, what analyses it produces and what conclusions it reaches.
    Last edited by odysseus; 28th January 2016 at 19:47.
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    I often hear free-market advocates mention "marginal utility" as the alternative to labor theory of value but rarely explain why. Could you give a summary of marginal utility, and what its impact is on the labor theory of value and Marxism in general?

    Before offering a brief answer, you can get a better version by finding a copy of R. Wolff and S. Resnick, Economics: Marxian versus neoclassical. We are working on an updated new version which should by out later this year, but copies of the above are definitely available via Amazon etc.

    Many factors combine to shape the price of a commodity: its quality, the intensity of desire for it, the labor needed to produce it, the profits sought by the capitalists in whose enterprises the commodity is produced, the weather on the day the commodity comes to market and countless other factors come into play. What different theories do is focus on one or a few factors since taking them all into account would be impossible since they are quite literally infinite. Theories differ according to which of the factors shaping price they focus on. Marx and Marxists, for example, focus on the labor needed to produce a commodity. They recognize the other factors, but believe that special insights into the economy and society become available if one uses a labor-focused approach. This approach was first used extensively by Adam Smith and David Ricardo, the founders of economics as a discipline and both avid supporters and even celebrators of capitalism. Marx borrowed (with fullsome praise for them) what they called the labor theory of value. But Marx used it in ways Smith and Ricardo had not done. Marx used it to show that the value added by the worker when he/she worked was always greater, in capitalism, than the value of the wage paid to the worker for his/her work. That difference between the value added by the worker (realized by the employer when the commodity is sold) and the value paid to that worker is, for Marx and Marxists, the source of profit. They call it a "surplus." Capitalism is thus an economic system founded upon the delivery of a surplus by workers to capitalists and that surplus delivery, Marx and Marxists show, has all sorts of consequences for capitalist societies. The production of surpluses by the majority and their receipt and use by a different group of people, indeed a minority, is what Marx and Marxists call exploitation. They find it unjust, they find its economic and social consequences unjust and wasteful of nature and human resources, and they work to change society in the belief that societies can and should do better than capitalism.

    Your "free market advocates" would be more precisely described as devotees of the major theoretical alternative to Marxian economics, namely the neoclassical economics that comprises the mainstream notion of what economics means today. Knowing where Marx's use of the labor theory of value took him and his followers (to an anti-capitalist politics), the neoclassical economists decided not to quarrel with how he used and developed the labor theory of value. Instead they decided to denounce it and not use it in any form. That's partly why they renamed the "classical economics" of Smith and Ricardo as "neoclassical economics" which was founded in the 1870s in Europe. They focused on a different set of factors shaping prices, namely supply and demand. That is, they focused on individuals' preferences - how much each person wants the different available commodities for sale (the "marginal utility" they derive from each unit of a commodity) and how much each persons wants income from work (the "marginal utility" of each dollar earned) rather than enjoyment from leisure (the "marginal utility" of each hour not having to work). They thought prices depend mostly or even entirely on preferences (marginal utilities) and the rules of technology int terms of how much we can get from the available productive resources. They preferred their approach and supply-demand theory over the labor and needed usually to bash the labor theory.

    However, in my view the theories are different ways of thinking about economics. Neither is right and the other wrong. Neoclassical theory leads to the sorts of conclusions advocates of capitalism like: prices reflect how much we all want commodities (they are in that sense sensitive and responsive to what consumers want); wages reflect how much work individuals want to do and what technology enables; profits reflect the demands and supplies of inputs and outputs. And above all, the economy (prices, wages, profits, etc.) is the outcome of all people pursuing the buying and selling they individually find advantageous. No one is ripping anyone else off. There is no exploitation. Its all a great harmony. Marxian theory sees things quite differently. Capitalists exploit workers, getting from them a total value added by their labor greater than what is given back to the workers for the labor they perform. Capitalism sits on a foundation of conflict. Workers resent delivering surpluses in exchange for nothing, seek to work less, join unions, declare strikes. Capitalists seek to save wages by substituting machines or moving production to other places where workers can be had more cheaply. Capitalists use the surpluses they take from their workers to buy politicians to make government favor them. Capitalists make investment decisions about using those surpluses that can and recurringly do produce business cycles that throw masses of workers out of their jobs. Capitalism, the Marxists conclude, using their labor theory of value, is an unstable and unjust system that modern society can and should move beyond.

    Which theory you end up using depends on who you are, how you have been educated, your family background and work experiences, and a million other facts about you. In the US, which theory you are likely to use also reflects the fact that the vast majority of schools, mass media, political, civic, cultural, and religious leaders either fear, reject or simply do not know Marxian theory and thus keep others from learning them and actually reaching conclusions on the basis of some actual knowledge of the available theoretical options. To rectify that situation is one goal of this website.
    Last edited by odysseus; 28th January 2016 at 19:46.
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    How did Marx treat the issue of who owns the means of production – such as the factory, tools, computers, and other equipment provided? Does ownership justify profit?

    I think this is the point behind labor theory of value, and the other guy you talk of simply doesn't understand what it's actually about.

    What a worker produces always has two sorts of value in it. The first sort is the value in the tools, equipment, and raw materials used up in production of the output. That value passes over into the value of the output much as the physical components of those used up materials do. For example, 100 units of value in hammers, nails, wood, and glue pass over as 100 units of value in the output of chairs made with those inputs. The second sort of value in the output - chairs in our example - is the value added by the labor of the worker, lets say 100 units as well. The chairs are then worth 200 units of value in the Marxian system of analysis/accounting. The worker might typically be paid, say, 50 units of value as his/her wage. This means that the capitalist, once the chairs have been sold at their value of 200, keeps for himself 150 units of value while paying the worker wages of 50 units. Out of the 150 units of value the capitalist receives, he spends 100 units to replenish the tools, equipment, and raw materials used up in production (100) and keeps 50 units of value as the capitalist's realized surplus: the fruits of capitalist exploitation. He then uses that 50 to buy more tools, equipment and raw materials to expand his business. Notice that the tools, equipment and raw materials accumulated by the capitalist ARE NOT the FRUITS of HIS labor but rather the surplus product of other workers' labor. Exploitation is what transforms means of production - made by workers - into the property of capitalists. To then reward capitalists for what "they contribute" to production nicely hides the fact that what they contribute to production they first stole from the workers who produced those means of production. That is what Marx meant by saying capitalism is a system in which the exploitation of workers in the past enables the exploitation of other workers in the present.
    Last edited by odysseus; 28th January 2016 at 19:45.
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    The first quote seems to assume that Marx's law of value proposes that price is determined by wages? That's simply not true.

    "To give a RL example, in the USSR, their was a factory that made jeans so terrible that nobody brought them. It wasn't creating wealth; heck it was destroying it. It was turning a useful material (fabric) into something nobody wanted."

    Right. So then it was socially necessary labour...

    Marxism doesn't say 'any creative physical activity = wealth'.
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    Ok, so after looking at some recent discussions on the internet I found some criticisms of marx's labor theory of value. I hope some people can help refute these points. Just be concise with it please.

    1)

    2)

    It's not just Marx's labor theory of value, but also Adam Smith's and David Ricardo's. What Marx discovered was that unpaid labor was the source of profit (surplus value.)

    In the manufacturing process, $10 is paid for wages, $2 for raw materials, $2 for depreciation, etc., That totals to $14. If the capitalist sells the product for $14 he makes no profit. But he can and does sell the product (on average) for its true value, $20, and makes a profit of $6. So where does the profit come from, where does it originate?

    It appears that the profit originates post-production in the selling of the product because that is where profit is realized. The capitalists, the entrepreneurs, the market gurus, the wealth creators and their apologists believe they have created the profit. In reality the profit/surplus-value is produced in the production process by the unpaid labor of the workers.

    Suppose you have a new car produced at GM. As it rolls off the assembly line what is it worth, what is its value? GM puts a sticker on the window telling you what it thinks the car can sell for. Everybody knows you don't pay the sticker price, but you do pay within a couple thousand dollars. The neo-classicals think that somehow a value, worth, is added to the car while it sits on a dealer's lot. What actually happens is that the value diminishes day by day as it sits on the lot, as everybody knows.

    The value of the car is fairly well estimated by GM. If you look at the sticker you see all of the things which go to make up the value: engine, transmission, shipping, etc. There is nothing on the sticker which says GM PROFIT. There is also nothing which says part of the price is the unpaid surplus labor performed by GM workers. The profit, in the form of unpaid labor, is already included in the price. The profit is not realized yet until the customer pays the price.

    So, why does GM keep the profit? Because it owns the means of production. In the same way a peasant from the 15th century owns his land, farm house, cow and horse, plows, chickens, etc., he owns all the means of production necessary for him to produce his and his family's life.He keeps all the value which he produced.
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    In the same way a peasant from the 15th century owns his land, farm house, cow and horse, plows, chickens, etc., he owns all the means of production necessary for him to produce his and his family's life.He keeps all the value which he produced.
    Not sure if this was a grammatical error or you are trolling. Peasants didn't "own" anything, they were bound to the land.
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    Ok, so after looking at some recent discussions on the internet I found some criticisms of marx's labor theory of value. I hope some people can help refute these points. Just be concise with it please.

    1)

    2)

    As an example, ask yourself why Gilead prices its drugs roughly 8x more than their wage costs while Accenture prices its services only 2x their wage costs, if not less (these are really rough estimates on my part but the magnitude of difference is a good ballpark estimate)...

    The answer is that Accenture is a consulting group that, with some exception, bills out talent by the hour the way a law firm or accounting firm would. So wages directly determine their revenues.
    On the one hand he says that Accenture's revenues are 2x its wage costs, yet a few sentences later he says wages directly determine its revenues. Which is it? Revenue = 2x wages or revenue = wages? If revenue is 2x wages then that is a clear description of the labor theory of value: labor and unpaid labor determine price.
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    Not sure if this was a grammatical error or you are trolling. Peasants didn't "own" anything, they were bound to the land.
    No. Those bound to the land were serfs. The peasants (some) "owned" the land not in the modern property sense, but in a tenure relationship under feudal law. That's why the landlords had to result to the brutality of clearancing. Ownership under feudalism was extremely complicated.

    But I'm pretty sure Marx referred to the ownership of land as part of the peasant's ownership of their own means of production.

    Besides, even today you see a few small farmers (formerly known as peasants) who own their own land and own the total value they produce.

    Trolling?
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    Peasants rented their land from feudal lords, they didn't "own" absolutely anything. They could be vacated at any time. A peasant and a serf are interchangeable. A serf is a peasant, but not all peasants were serfs; though for most of medieval history, they made up a majority of the peasants in most European localities.

    Regardless, your comment about peasants owning their land is abjectly untrue.
    Besides, even today you see a few small farmers (formerly known as peasants) who own their own land and own the total value they produce.
    A result of capitalist reforms. A non-noble (or clergy) owning land in 15th century Europe, or any time before that, was pretty rare; certainly not something endemic.
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    Peasants rented their land from feudal lords, they didn't "own" absolutely anything. They could be vacated at any time. A peasant and a serf are interchangeable. A serf is a peasant, but not all peasants were serfs; though for most of medieval history, they made up a majority of the peasants in most European localities.

    Regardless, your comment about peasants owning their land is abjectly untrue.


    A result of capitalist reforms. A non-noble (or clergy) owning land in 15th century Europe, or any time before that, was pretty rare; certainly not something endemic.
    Abjectly?


    Marx, Capital, Vol I Ch. 32:

    The private property of the labourer in his means of production is the foundation of petty industry, whether agricultural, manufacturing, or both; petty industry, again, is an essential condition for the development of social production and of the free individuality of the labourer himself. Of course, this petty mode of production exists also under slavery, serfdom, and other states of dependence. But it flourishes, it lets loose its whole energy, it attains its adequate classical form, only where the labourer is the private owner of his own means of labour set in action by himself: the peasant of the land which he cultivates, the artisan of the tool which he handles as a virtuoso.
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    First off, lets not get tied up with quotes, after all this is exactly what you said, this is abjectly false:
    In the same way a peasant from the 15th century owns his land, farm house, cow and horse, plows, chickens, etc., he owns all the means of production necessary for him to produce his and his family's life.He keeps all the value which he produced.
    He also does not "own" the means by which he produces said labor in any meaningful way, he does not own the land. He might "own" the plow, which without the land is essentially useless.
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    The original points are based on two fallacies.

    1 - Marx is talking about value not price. Perhaps the person who posted the arguments originally didn't know that, or perhaps they think that value and price are the same, but they aren't. Marx deliberately sets up a scenario were capitalism is running smoothly - where neither producer nor consumer is able to unduly influence price, where supply equals demand. Of course this is an abstract and idealised capitalism, that hardly ever appears in practice, because as we know capitalism is rubbish at aggregating and responding to demand;

    2 - Marx is talking about commodities, not any product of human labour. By definition, a commodity has a buyer; if it doesn't have a buyer, it's not 'a commodity' but 'an expensive mistake'. So mud pies or pointless holes in the road or useless pairs of jeans aren't commodities so fall outside the scope of the argument.

    There was a thread here about 3 weeks ago expressing exactly the same mistaken views of the law of value.
    Critique of the Gotha Programme, Pt IV: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch04.htm

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    So for Marx, profit is value obtained without any compensation. It follows that capitalist has already made profit before anything is sold. He has come in possession of a car, for example, while paying only for a part of the car. On marketplace he just exchanges his profit for money equivalent, which allows him to buy different things instead of the car.

    But even when he cannot do that, he still has this resource he hasn't produced - the car.

    The question is how consumers who do not produce cars know the labour value of a car. I guess the true value information spreads through society, since no one wants to pay more than people who know what the car is actually worth. So even when you inflate the price with advertising (also a type of labour), after a while it comes back to labour value. Because information just spreads.
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    So for Marx, profit is value obtained without any compensation. It follows that capitalist has already made profit before anything is sold. He has come in possession of a car, for example, while paying only for a part of the car. On marketplace he just exchanges his profit for money equivalent, which allows him to buy different things instead of the car.

    But even when he cannot do that, he still has this resource he hasn't produced - the car.

    The question is how consumers who do not produce cars know the labour value of a car. I guess the true value information spreads through society, since no one wants to pay more than people who know what the car is actually worth. So even when you inflate the price with advertising (also a type of labour), after a while it comes back to labour value. Because information just spreads.
    I think another point that Marx made is that, in fact, people, on average, do pay the real value of the car, which includes the unpaid labor. It is competition between sellers and buyers which "regulates" the selling price, so that a buyer does not have to know how much unpaid labor is in the car.
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    First off, lets not get tied up with quotes, after all this is exactly what you said, this is abjectly false:


    He also does not "own" the means by which he produces said labor in any meaningful way, he does not own the land. He might "own" the plow, which without the land is essentially useless.
    OK. I'll stick with Marx.
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    I am no expert on Marx, but in your quote nowhere does he says a peasant owns all of his labor production. He just seems to be saying that a peasant is a unit that is independent of a master; in the sense that he isn't bonded to the master per say, which really seems like an analysis of rent (the basis of feudalism).
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    Some new ones from my continued conversation
    1.
    Notice that the tools, equipment and raw materials accumulated by the capitalist ARE NOT the FRUITS of HIS labor but rather the surplus product of other workers' labor.
    Course, without the capitalist to provide the original tools, and materials the worker wouldn't have done anything? And what if the capitalist had developed a faster or better way of making the chairs, say his quality improvements in the process or design meant they could be sold at 200 rather than 150? How would that not be fruits of his labor?

    It's all irrelevant since the theory that labor gives an object value is meaningless. I cannot knit well, and it would take me months to produce a sweater of half quality as could be produced in a minor fraction of the time by a machine. Would my half-finished, nigh unwearable jumble of thread be worth the same?
    2.
    Marx's labour theory of value is also known as the law of value - something different to the labour theory of value. The law of value may have some merit behind it, especially intuitively, though I am aware it isn't perfect. However I'm not an expert on it The labour theory of value is generally no longer adhered to and conceptually admitted the subjective theory of value - as marginalism supports - was the reason for value.
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    My reply to this comment #2, any thoughts on what I said?

    ( this is me talking)1. I'm not sure what you mean in the first few sentences, the means of production are still the capitalist's but it is just being used by the worker to produce the product. What you're describing about the chairs is what is called socially necessary labor time, which means that any capitalist production must be done as quickly as possible. So in your case, the capitalist wouldn't have done the labor, the workers did it in order to create the product. The capitalist must give a minority amount of the profit to the worker, therefore being exploited by the system for what the his labor is truly worth, its labor.

    2. Wut? It's definitely not irrelevant that material labor put into a system is so called ''meaningless''. And a mud-pie argument isn't going to help you either. Since you aren't going to sell any unwearable sweater in the market, your efficiency means that if you started a business from it you would be mowed down from your competition. Capitalists need* workers to do labor for them, as they are the most efficient and cheapest way to do it compared to your manual work.

    *you may argue that robots will eventually produce products, however that will in turn lead to the capitalists finding no use in the proletarian class. And either they're advanced to a system like the US (which has it's own deviated version of Marx's oppression) or a revolution occurs due to the proles being alienated.

    Further reading: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSP-crYjeoE
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    And what if the capitalist had developed a faster or better way of making the chairs, say his quality improvements in the process or design meant they could be sold at 200 rather than 150? How would that not be fruits of his labor?
    Then capitalist gets more profit (as long as he can keep it a trade secret) and his research department that actually came up with the better way of making the chairs gets the same shitty wage.

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