turkey shoots down russian fighter jet...

[John Nada]

The Turkish province the Russian plane allegedly strayed into is disputed territory. Hatay province was originally part of French Syria, called Sanjak of Alexandretta. However Mustafa Kemal Ataturk claimed that it was part of the Turkish homeland since 4000 years ago, even though Turks are a minority in Hatay and this is 3000 years before Turks even came to Anatolia. France agreed to give Hatay to Turkey before WWII to prevent Turkey from siding with Nazi Germany. In 1938 Turkey pulled a Crimea in Hatay, sending troops to occupy it and rigged an election in favor of an independent state that quickly joined Turkey. This technically violated France treaty granting Syria independence in 1936. To this day in Syria the maps still include Hatay within Syria's borders, though some of the Turkish-backed rebels put up the more internationally recognized borders in images of Syria.

[Burzhuin]

Turkey most certainly does not want ISIL militants in their borders or even near them. Turkey is a secular (debatable but true to an extent). The late thing Turkey wants is a destabilized neighbor taken over by a insane terrorist group.

edit: After thinking a little bit I think Sasha is saying the truth. Turkey is intentionally trying to put an illegitimate government in Syria in order to serve it's own geopolitical interests. This is really turning into a proxy war

If Turkey wants all that, then why they are attacking and bombing Kurds, the only other, than Syrian Army and Russians, force who REALLY fights ISIS.

[Sasha]

remember all those "local" rebel commanders in Donbass that turned out to be Russian citizens and "former" Russian regime employees? Turkey is playing that game too;
http://www.kurdishinfo.com/turkmen-c...sh-nationalist

[Guardia Rossa]

If Turkey wants all that, then why they are attacking and bombing Kurds, the only other, than Syrian Army and Russians, force who REALLY fights ISIS.

Regardless of fighting ISIS or not, they would attempt to f*ck Kurds.

While Daesh claims to "All the islamic territories in the world blablabla" is a fantasious claim, Kurdish claims to a big chump of eastern Turkey, wich is Kurdish-speaking, is as real as a claim can be.

Now, a possibly socialist, militarily experienced, internationally recognized and supported Kurdish state, is the worse thing that can border you, much worse than a group of lunatic fascists that can't even defeat ten thousand soldiers in a city...

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Erdogan hasn't done something 'stupid'. His move is entirely expected. The reason that ISIS still exists as an active military force in Syria is because Turkey at the very least turns a blind eye to their border crossings and weapons smuggling, and at most could potentially be an active participant in ISIS funding, training, and weapons distribution, as well as the Turkish state taking actions that hurt one of ISIS' main military enemies, the YPG.

Russia escalating its bombing in Syria against ISIS has led to a backlash - it appears that ISIS or groups sympathetic to it were responsible for downing the Russian passenger jet, and now we see Turkey playing the role of ISIS' ally by attacking Russia itself.

This has hallmarks of war that come dangerously close to re-producing the alliances, nationalism, and militarism of world war 1. All that is missing is the introduction of imperialism and you have the perfect storm: Turkey and ISIS in one corner, Assad and Russia in the other corner, and a third group loosely made up of the Kurds in Rojava and the rest of NATO. It's awkward and dangerous.

[Emmett Till]

Turkey most certainly does not want ISIL militants in their borders or even near them. Turkey is a secular (debatable but true to an extent). The late thing Turkey wants is a destabilized neighbor taken over by a insane terrorist group.

edit: After thinking a little bit I think Sasha is saying the truth. Turkey is intentionally trying to put an illegitimate government in Syria in order to serve it's own geopolitical interests. This is really turning into a proxy war

Turkey secular? Well, not if Erdogan has anything to say about it. He was elected in the first place to desecularize Turkey.

And that Turkey has more or less been backing ISIS is not exactly a secret. Turkey is just about the only country in the area I can think of that ISIS hasn't been calling for terrorist attacks against. Turkey had the last Caliphate after all. Hey, ISIS is even committing terrorist attacks against Saudi Arabia!

Granted, the terrorist attack against Kurds and leftists in Istanbul last month was probably ISIS, but nobody is quite sure whether or not Erdogan had a hand in it too.

[Kostador]

Everything was going well for Turkey, buying super cheap petrol from the jihadists while pretending to fight them. Profits were so big that even one of Erdogan's sons created a petrol company. Two months ago, Turkey even proposed to establish a no-fly zone 90km in Syria forbidden for Syrian aviation. And just at that moment Turkey's bright future was destroyed by the sound of departing russian planes. Bombs, cruise missiles flew over Turkey from the Caspian Sea, moreover, without being detected by the turkish AAW, then strategic warfare joined. Even France admits that ISIL gets rekt.
And apparently the Turkish authorities did not fray their nerves and decided just to intimidate Russia.
You should know that the massive bombardment of the Russian Air Force over the Turkmen opposition are for one simple reason - there are the most of the caucassian mercenaries.

There probably won't be a war. Such things have happened often enough and the world already worked some kind of regular procedure for similar incidents. Since the beginning of the civil war in Syria, Turkey itself suffered losses of its aircraft downed from the Syrian air defense and that did not serve as a reason for some major conflict.

[Antiochus]

ISIS did commit terror attacks within Turkey...More than once as well.

I just don't see the big deal. Its obvious Turkey has throw in its lot with the Islamists rebels but ANY fighter/bomber jet that strays into territory is immidietly shot down by the state whose territory has been violated (if their air defenses are solvent).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_2...rkish_aircraft

This is just standard modus operandi.

[Sasha]

Russian milltary aircraft invade dutch airspace all the time, dutch f-16 just escort them back over the border, they dont shoot them down.

[PhoenixAsh]

This is not standard procedure as Sasha already indicated. This is however a procedure that comes after several warnings when countries are on the verge of open hostilities. As was the case with Turkey and Syria in your link.

[Бай Ганьо]

Russian milltary aircraft invade dutch airspace all the time, dutch f-16 just escort them back over the border, they dont shoot them down.

Since March 2014, only one Russian aircraft entered Dutch airspace before being intercepted. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...4-9851309.html

And yeah, escorting back to the border is the standard procedure.

[Sasha]

Since March 2014, only one Russian aircraft entered Dutch airspace before being intercepted. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...4-9851309.html

And yeah, escorting back to the border is the standard procedure.

That article is from november 2014, since then it has happend a lot more times.

[Бай Ганьо]

That article is from november 2014, since then it has happend a lot more times.

What's your source? The website of the Ministry of Defence only mentions one more time in December 2014.

[PhoenixAsh]

It happened in april, august and again in November in 2014. After that....I don't know.

[Sasha]

numbers only up to the end of 2014; https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quick_Reaction_Alert
obviously most times we take them over from the danish or gemans who already scrambled when they fly into their airspace.
but this is all wildly off topic, i just made the point its not standard procedure to shoot at any aircraft invading your airspace even if they dont make themselves known when requested or listen to your directions, even in a situation as on the turkish border.
the only possibility they shot down that russian jet unplanned is if they thought is was syrian and they had standing policy to down all syrian planes

[Aslan]

According to Wikipedia:
''On 24 November 2015, a Turkmen rebel group under the command of Alparslan Çelik, a Turkish citizen and Grey Wolves member, shot the two pilots descending by parachutes from the Russian Sukhoi Su-24M that was shot down by Turkish F-16s near the Syria–Turkey border. In the result, one pilot, Lt. Col. Oleg Anatolyevich Peshkov, was shot dead, while the other pilot was rescued by Syrian Army commandos.''

I had previously thought that the Grey Wolves were involved in the 2015 Ankara bombing. But apparently the commander of the Turkmen who shot down the Russian jet was in fact a member of the Neo-fascist organization.

[ckaihatsu]

http://money.cnn.com/2015/11/26/news...ade-sanctions/


4 reasons Russia and Turkey can't afford a trade war

By Ivana Kottasova @ivanakottasova

Turkey will not apologize for downing Russian jet

A war of words has erupted after Turkey shot down a Russian warplane on Tuesday.

Russian President Vladimir Putin called the downing of the jet a "stab in the back by the terrorists' accomplices." His Turkish counterpart Recep Tayyip Erdogan accused Moscow of deceit, and described Putin's comments as a "huge mistake" in an interview with CNN on Thursday.

Russian officials are drawing up possible retaliatory economic sanctions against Turkey. But a trade war would cost both sides dearly. Here's why:

1. Russia has few friends

Russia doesn't have many business friends on the international scene. Turkey was one of the few partners it could rely on.

Turkey did not join Europe, the United States and other Western countries in imposing economic sanctions on Russia over its role in the crisis in Ukraine. The NATO country was actually planning to boost the volume of trade with Russia threefold to $100 billion by 2020.

Escalating tension between the two countries could severely damage that relationship.

Russia said Thursday it was tightening controls on food and agricultural imports from Turkey. And the state consumer protection agency said it had concerns about the quality and safety of clothing, furniture and cleaning products originating in Turkey.



Friends no more? Putin and Erdogan discussed their countries' relationship at a G20 summit last week.

2. A strategic energy link

The two countries signed a series of strategically important energy deals just a year ago. Chief among them was the Turkish Stream project -- a plan to build a new pipeline to carry Russian gas to Turkey, and then to the huge European market. It is set to replace the South Stream project, which was supposed to run through Ukraine but was canceled last year.

Turkey is the second largest buyer of Russia's natural gas, behind Germany.

Russia is also building Turkey's first nuclear power station, located in Mersin on the south coast of the country. Construction started in April and is expected to be completed by 2020. Under the agreement, signed in 2010, Russia will finance the $22 billion project and then operate the plant.

Both projects could be subject to sanctions, Russian economy minister Alexey Ulyukaev said Thursday.

Related: Turkey's election rally could be short-lived

3. Tourist traffic

Russian visitors are crucial for the tourism industry in Turkey.

Around 4.5 million Russians visited the country in 2014, and official Turkish data show that more than 12% of all visitors were Russian, making them the second biggest group after Germans.

Putin has advised Russians not to visit Turkey in the aftermath of the downing of the plane, and Russia's Federal Agency for Tourism told travel agents to stop selling tours to the country.

And with Egypt out of bounds after a Russian airliner was blown up shortly after taking off from the resort of Sharm el Sheikh last month, Turkey may have won even more tourist business. That appears less likely now.

4. Both need all the help they can get

Both countries are already suffering huge economic turmoil and urgently need a boost, not another shock.
Russia's economy has been slammed by low oil prices and Western sanctions. The International Monetary Fund expects Russian GDP will shrink by 3.8% this year, and by another 0.6% in 2016.

Turkey is not in the best place either. Months of political deadlock after an inconclusive election in June weighed on activity. Growth has slumped in recent years. The IMF expects the economy to grow by just 3.1% this year and 3.6% in 2016 -- way below the 9% it experienced in 2010 and 2011.

The lira has fallen by about 20% against the dollar this year. That's making it more expensive for Turkey to service $125 billion in short term foreign debt.

Related: Markets dip after Turkey shoots down Russian warplane
CNNMoney (London) November 26, 2015: 12:57 PM ET

[Бай Ганьо]

I wouldn't be surprised if Gazprom were to announce the cancellation of gas deals with Turkey soon.

Dont know how dependent the turks are on russian gas but last thing russia would want is start an trade war with turkey, do not forget that turkey controlls the bosporus strait which would leave russia essentially landlocked for most of the year (only the black sea harbours and the kalinka enclave and the harbour on the other end of siberia near japan remain ice free). If russia wants to hurt turkey their best bet is is deciding the syrian war quickly in favour of the Assad regime. Whether they can force an desicive victory without boots on the ground is a big question though.

Apparently, Russia has frozen (but not cancelled) a pipeline project. https://www.rt.com/business/324230-g...-cancellation/

Another interesting article:

Erdogan Blackmails NATO Allies
by MIKE WHITNEY

You know the country has really gone to the dogs when Washington’s main allies in its war on Syria are the two biggest terrorist incubators on the planet. I’m talking about Saudi Arabia and Turkey, both of which are run by fanatical Islamic zealots devoted to spreading violent jihad to the four corners of the earth. Not that the US doesn’t have blood on its hands too. It does, but that’s beside the point.

The point is that if you’re trying to sell your fake war on terror to the public, then you might want to think twice about lining up with Grand Sultan Erdogan and King Chop-Chop of Riyadh. The optics alone should have sent the White House PR team running for cover. I mean, couldn’t they have hired squeaky-clean Iceland to join the fray just to persuade the public that the ongoing proxy war wasn’t a complete sham. Which it is.

It all goes to show that no one in the administration really gives a rip about appearances anymore. Obama is going to do what he wants to do, and if you don’t like it: Tough!

Isn’t that the message?

Of course it is. But just look how that apathy transfers itself into other areas of governing like, let’s say, strategic planning. Take Syria for example, where the think tank pundits were given the task of coming up with a plan to topple a secular regime without: 1–triggering a violent insurgency. 2–igniting massive antiwar demonstrations around the world and, 3—producing hundreds or thousands of US casualties. In other words, our esteemed leaders didn’t want another Iraq which is understandable.

Anyway, that was the basic assignment. So the think tankers came up with this brilliant plan to enlist Sunni militants that the CIA would fund, arm, train and deploy into Syria to shoot the place up, raise holy hell, and then topple the regime of Syrian President Bashar al Assad. That was the plan, at least.

Four and half years later, the place is a worse mess than Iraq. Half the population is either dead or internally displaced, the civilian infrastructure is a shambles, and nothing has been achieved. Nothing. Assad is safely tucked away in Damascus, the jihadi proxies are on the run, and everyone hates the US more than ever.

Great plan, eh? Where’s the downside?

The downside is that now Washington finds itself backed against the wall with precious few options that don’t involve a direct confrontation with Moscow. Of course, all of this could have been avoided had the White House been more eager to negotiate a settlement to the conflict months earlier in Vienna. But, instead, the bullheaded Obama team decided to stick with its dreary “Assad must go” mantra which put the kibosh on any long-term agreement or ceasefire proposal. So now, the Russian-led coalition has made significant gains on the ground, retaking numerous key cities, highways and airbases in the west and south while sending US-backed terrorists fleeing eastward towards Raqqa. These developments have forced Washington into a fallback position that will likely entail air-support for Turkish ground forces who will be deployed to Northern Syria to take and hold area sufficient for a “safe zone”, which is an innocuous sounding moniker the media invokes to conceal the fact that Turkey plans to annex sovereign Syrian territory which, by the way, is an act of war.

Now fast-forward to last week:

Some readers may have noticed disturbing headlines like this in the Wall Street Journal: “U.S. Urges Turkey to Seal Border”

Or this Reuters piece that popped up on Monday: “NATO allies act to strengthen Turkey’s air defenses”

Why, you may ask, does Obama want Turkey to close the border now when the horse has already left the barn? What I mean is that the White House has known for over 3 years that the bulk of the jihadis were transiting Turkey on their way to Syria, just like they knew that ISIS’s oil was being transported across Turkey. They knew it all because they have their damn spy satellites and AWACs circling overhead. In fact, they could probably tell you how many bumblebees crossed the border at any given time, so they sure as heck saw the throngs of bearded roughnecks moving southward in droves. So why is it so urgent to close the border now, after all, the damage is already done, right?

Could it have something to do with the fact that Putin’s legions are moving north to seal the border? Could there be an alternate objective, for example, could the US and Turkey be setting the stage for an incursion into Syria that would secure the land needed for the glorious safe zone?

That’s what most of the analysts seem to think, at least the ones that haven’t been coopted by the mainstream media. But why is NATO suddenly getting involved? What’s that all about? After all, Putin was reluctant to even commit his airforce to the Syrian conflict. It’s not like he’s planning to invade Turkey or something, right?

Of course he’s not thinking of invading Turkey. That would pit Russia against NATO in a planet-incinerating fight-to-the-death. That might please some of the crackpots in Washington, but just about everyone else would rather avoid the mushroom cloud scenario.

So, what’s really going on?

For that, we turn to Moon of Alabama that provides this excellent summary in a recent post titled: “The Real “Terrorist Sympathizers” Want To Wage War On Syria … And Russia”. Here’s an excerpt:

“Who initiated this sudden rush within major NATO governments to get parliamentary blank checks for waging a long war on Syria? Not only in the UK but also in France and Germany?

The German government turned on a dime from “no military intervention in Syria ever” to “lets wage a war of terror on Syria” without any backing from the UN or international law. .. Who initiated this? A simple, medium size terror attack in Paris by some Belgians and French can not be the sole reason for this stampede.

Did Obama call and demand support for his plans? What are these?

I smell that a trap is being laid, likely via a treacherous Turkey, to somehow threaten Russia with, or involve it in, a wider war. This would include military attacks in east-Ukraine or Crimea as well as in Syria. Obama demanded European backing in case the issue gets out of hand. No other reason I have found explains the current panic. The terrorists the “west” supports in Syria are in trouble. The real terrorist sympathizers need to rush to their help. It is a start of all-out war on Syria and its Russian protectors.” (“Terrorist Sympathizers” Want To Wage War On Syria … And Russia“, Moon of Alabama)

Is that what’s going on? Has Turkish President Erdogan figured out how to hoodwink the NATO allies into a confrontation with Russia that will help him achieve his goal of toppling Assad and stealing Syrian territory?

It’s hard to say, but clearly something has changed, after all, neither France, nor Germany nor the UK were nearly as gung-ho just a few weeks ago. Now they’re all hyped-up and ready for WW3. Why is that?

Ahh, Grasshopper, that is the mystery, a mystery that was unraveled in an op-ed that appeared in the Tuesday edition of the Turkish newspaper Hurriyet Daily News. Here’s the excerpt:

“The increase in military cooperation within NATO countries against ISIL and the piling up of NATO forces near Turkey’s border with Syria take place in parallel with the recent deal between Ankara and the Brussels over Syrian refugees and the re-activation of Turkey’s EU accession bid.” ….(“Western forces pile up on Turkey-Syria border“, Hurriyet)

Okay, so Erdogan worked out a deal with the other NATO countries. Why is that such a big deal?

Well, check out this blurb from the Today’s Zaman: “Erdogan’s advisor, Burhan Kuzu, summed it up even more succinctly saying: “The EU finally got Turkey’s message and opened its purse strings. What did we say? ‘We’ll open our borders and unleash all the Syrian refugees on you,’” Kuzu stated in his controversial tweet… ” (“EU bows to Turkey’s threat on refugees says Erdoğan advisor“, Today’s Zaman)

Blackmail? Is that what we’re talking about, blackmail?

It sure sounds like it.

Let’s summarize: Erdogan intentionally releases tens of thousands of Syrian refugees into Europe to put pressure on EU politicians who quickly lose the support of their people and face the meteoric rise of right wing parties. And then, the next thing you know, Merkel, Hollande and every other EU leader is looking to cut a deal with Erdogan to keep the refugees in Turkey.

Isn’t that how it all went down? Except we’re missing one important factoid here, because according to the first op-ed “The increase in military cooperation within NATO… and the piling up of NATO forces near Turkey’s border”…took place in parallel with the deal between Ankara and the Brussels.”

Get it? So there was a quid pro quo that no one wants to talk about. In other words, Germany, France and the UK agreed to support Erdogan’s loony plan to conduct military operations in Syria, risking a serious dust-up with Russia, in order to save their own miserable political careers.

Boy, if that doesn’t take the cake, than I don’t know what does.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/12/...s-nato-allies/

[Hexen]

Apparently, Russia has frozen (but not cancelled) a pipeline project. https://www.rt.com/business/324230-g...-cancellation/

Another interesting article:

Well first of all the former is Russia's Fox News and the latter is a conspiracy mongering site dressed up as 'leftist' due to the WW3 hype apparent there which is popular among conspiracy nuts since it links to their main basis (biblical prophecies).

[Бай Ганьо]

Well first of all the former is Russia's Fox News and the latter is a conspiracy mongering site dressed up as 'leftist' due to the WW3 hype apparent there which is popular among conspiracy nuts since it links to their main basis (biblical prophecies).

Oh right, so everything they publish must be nonsense.