Basque activists block fash demo with chainsaws

[Sasha]

so apparently some neo-fash wanted to march through a basque town protesting either for or against the reintroduction of the brown bear and the locals took them on crazy basque style...

+ YouTube Video

sod sit blockades, this is the antifa future

[Zoop]

Now that's what I call militant.

[Sasha]

First one to make a "good night white pride" badge version with a chainsaw wielding figurine will be a massive hero...

[QueerVanguard]

meh.... these basque nationalist types are quasi fascist in their own right, always going on about their ethnic bullshit and nationalist pride. fuck em both.

[Atsumari]

meh.... these basque nationalist types are quasi fascist in their own right, always going on about their ethnic bullshit and nationalist pride. fuck em both.

I never thought I would see someone who used the word "fascist" more lazily than Glen Beck.

[Zoop]

First one to make a "good night white pride" badge version with a chainsaw wielding figurine will be a massive hero...

Here you go

[LeninistIthink]

I'm getting a badge machine to make these. Actually, if anyone owns one of those PLEASE make it and take a photo.

[Comrade Marcel]

meh.... these basque nationalist types are quasi fascist in their own right, always going on about their ethnic bullshit and nationalist pride. fuck em both.

Really, you know who these guys are? Because the entire movement is Basque in homogeneous?

"Ethnic bullshit"? Are you saying ethnicity doesn't exist? Black people should just pretend they are colour blind? How about fuck your ultra-leftist dogma?

[RedWorker]

Really, you know who these guys are? Because the entire movement is Basque in homogeneous?

Anyone promoting a national flag should be criticized. And I see a Basque flag there. So yes, fuck this nationalist bullshit and also fuck the typical pseudo-left apologism for Catalan and Basque nationalism. Oh and before anyone here opens his mouth, I'm from and live in one of these "oppressed nations" myself, so also fuck all these chivalrous attitudes from people who dream of protecting little Catalans/Basque people.

"Ethnic bullshit"? Are you saying ethnicity doesn't exist? Black people should just pretend they are colour blind? How about fuck your ultra-leftist dogma?

Ethnicity is a social construct, and nationalism and its variant ethnic nationalism should be clearly opposed. The argument against "color blindness" is that people often ignore or refuse to analyze actually occurring racism by referencing that they are simply "color blind". Is that occurring here?

[Comrade Marcel]

Anyone promoting a national flag should be criticized. And I see a Basque flag there. So yes, fuck this nationalist bullshit and also fuck the typical pseudo-left apologism for Catalan and Basque nationalism.

Obviously you don't understand how in the context of fighting fascists this works. If you can't put aside your ultra-leftism and work with united fronts to keep fascism out of your community, good luck organizing your ultra-leftist brigades!

If you have the mass support, like say the German Communist Party did in the '30s or the Reds that held onto cities for months after Mussolini took power, sure. Even then it wasn't enough. The context is a bit different, but as a general rule you need numbers to fight fascists.

Oh and before anyone here opens his mouth, I'm from and live in one of these "oppressed nations" myself,

Oh, so surely this is a "check mate" argument and no one should dare question your wisdom. There are ultra-leftists in Quebec that doesn't mean no one else can possibly talk about the National question because they live in Toronto instead of Laval.

so also fuck all these chivalrous attitudes from people who dream of protecting little Catalans/Basque people.

Who exactly said any of that shit? Are you actually insinuating that it would have been better if the fascists marched through because they aren't leftist enough for your taste? Wow.

Ethnicity is a social construct,

Of course, I don't think I ever said ethnicity is made out of concrete. You have to have people agree it exists as a collective, or else it wouldn't. But this requires a shitload of people usually (ok I'm sure there could be tiny tribes). It requires historical relevance, linguistics, culture and to some degree genetics. There are material aspects to ethnicity; it's not simply imagined.

and nationalism and its variant ethnic nationalism should be clearly opposed.

In stages. You don't go wrecking a progressive nationalist movement when you are say... fighting a monarchy, colonialism/imperialism or fascism.
That's just ultra-left sectarianism and I fail to see how it helps at all. If there was no bourgeois revolutions you would be likely toiling in some field right now.

The argument against "color blindness" is that people often ignore or refuse to analyze actually occurring racism by referencing that they are simply "color blind". Is that occurring here?

No, ultra-left blindness is occurring here. :d

For the record, I think separatism, at least in the 1st world is dead and has far outreached it's usefulness. But when it comes to fighting fascism the only people I won't work with are outright fascists (in that case you play them against each other like the time we got the JDL to clash with neo-nazis by making a phone call). I will work in some capacity with Quebec nationalists, social democrats and even some "conservatives" if it is useful.

Unless you can explain to me how these guys are pseudo-fascists just by waving a Basque flag, what exactly is useful about your criticism here?

This is what I see: someone actually willing to fight fascists in the street and stand in front of cops and some ultra-leftists on rev-left criticizing them for not being pure enough, though the latter is no surprise.

[RedWorker]

Obviously you don't understand how in the context of fighting fascists this works. If you can't put aside your ultra-leftism and work with united fronts to keep fascism out of your community, good luck organizing your ultra-leftist brigades!

I wouldn't stop a Basque nationalist from fending off fascists. Actually it is your 'ultra-rightism' that prevents actions (criticizing nationalism is an action) - my positions don't prevent any action.

Oh, so surely this is a "check mate" argument and no one should dare question your wisdom. There are ultra-leftists in Quebec that doesn't mean no one else can possibly talk about the National question because they live in Toronto instead of Laval.

No, I just find it freaking stupid when some pseudo-leftist states "You know nothing about Basque people/Catalan people" to anyone -- let alone a Catalan leftist. Not that that's explicitly happening here, though in such discussions such things often quickly start happening. Of course, this doesn't mean Catalan people are necessarily correct about positions on Catalonia.

Who exactly said any of that shit? Are you actually insinuating that it would have been better if the fascists marched through because they aren't leftist enough for your taste? Wow.

No, it's you who is making up strawmen, intentionally or not, and insinuating that I have positions that I evidently never stated. The point is that people with anti-nationalist positions being told that "they know nothing about the oppression of [group X]" by pseudo-leftists (and sometimes Catalan leftists are told they know nothing about the oppression of Catalans!) is a common phenomenon, embedded with a chivalrous attitude.

There are material aspects to ethnicity; it's not simply imagined.

Sure, but the actual social constructs are still arbitrary; I can say that people of black skin constitute a "race", someone else meanwhile could say that people of white and black skin constitute the same "race", etc. All these would be based on material aspects. And this isn't an extreme example; examples have previously been brought up in this forums about real situations and real social constructs, about how a certain country draws a distinction of "ethnicity/race A" and "ethnicity/race B", while people from another country see only one "race".

In stages.

No, we criticize nationalism here and now, no exceptions.

That's just ultra-left sectarianism and I fail to see how it helps at all. If there was no bourgeois revolutions you would be likely toiling in some field right now.

Sure, that's why the bourgeois revolution is supported by communists when comparatively progressive and also why bourgeois society is preferred to reactionary movements.

Unless you can explain to me how these guys are pseudo-fascists just by waving a Basque flag, what exactly is useful about your criticism here?

Pretty simple, apologism of Basque and Catalan nationalism has gone too far on the pseudo-left, people start developing romantic attachments to them, which should be crushed. It is a real problem.

This is what I see: someone actually willing to fight fascists in the street and stand in front of cops and some ultra-leftists on rev-left criticizing them for not being pure enough, though the latter is no surprise.

This is really a pointless statement. This is a discussion forum; the point is discussion, your position is your position and nothing more regardless of your real actions. Furthermore nobody here knows anything about anyone else's real actions, nor should it be assumed in a condescending fashion.

[Comrade Marcel]

I wouldn't stop a Basque nationalist from fending off fascists.

But I take it you wouldn't bother to help them either.

So how do you plan to win people over to your position, by criticizing something as emotionally, culturally and socially as important to them as their identity on rev-left?

Actually it is your 'ultra-rightism' that prevents actions (criticizing nationalism is an action) - my positions don't prevent any action.

I don't even know what to say to this. Sure, making a criticism is an action in the abstract sense. So is taking a piss an action (and possibly less abstract) but again I ask what is the usefulness of it here?

I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that I am the one preventing anything any more or less than you are by making rev-left posts. I am advocating for united fronts, it seems you're not. You tell me who's position is more limiting.

No, I just find it freaking stupid when some pseudo-leftist states "You know nothing about Basque people/Catalan people" to anyone -- let alone a Catalan leftist. Not that that's explicitly happening here, though in such discussions such things often quickly start happening. Of course, this doesn't mean Catalan people are necessarily correct about positions on Catalonia.

I didn't make any comments at all about the Basque/Catalan movement. In fact I asked questions. I asked simply to show me how these people are related to "pseudo-fascism". If I am missing something here, show me.

If you are trying to say anyone waving a nationalist flag is a pseudo-fascist then you are just spouting ultra-leftist dogma and you may as well just throw the term fascism out the window. It no longer serves a useful purpose.

No, it's you who is making up strawmen, intentionally or not,

Look, these are your words: "fuck all these chivalrous attitudes from people who dream of protecting little Catalans/Basque people."

Fuck these people ... who dream of protecting ...

This sounds like you are saying that because they don't share your ultra-left position they aren't worthy of protection from fascists. Either this was not your intention when you said this or else you are an ultra-left purist who will deserve what they get when the fash come and beat you up and no mass support will protect you in return because you didn't do it for them and, well fuck you to.

Sure, but the actual social constructs are still arbitrary; I can say that people of black skin constitute a "race", someone else meanwhile could say that people of white and black skin constitute the same "race", etc. All these would be based on material aspects. And this isn't an extreme example; examples have previously been brought up in this forums about real situations and real social constructs, about how a certain country draws a distinction of "ethnicity/race A" and "ethnicity/race B", while people from another country see only one "race".

I avoid the term "race" as much as possible for it implies there are significant scientific/biological differences between people and they can be categorized as such. For example a racist would say "Aryan race" whereas a more correct term might be "Caucasian ethnicity". Of course it is all muddled and socially constructed. We both agree on that; but it's still a reality.

No, we criticize nationalism here and now, no exceptions.

To what degree? Not helping people fight fascism because they are not leftist enough for us? This sounds like the kind of failed anarchist shit that ruined the movement in Spain against fascism in the first place!

Pretty simple, apologism of Basque and Catalan nationalism has gone too far on the pseudo-left, people start developing romantic attachments to them, which should be crushed. It is a real problem.

Sure that's fine. There is similar problems with Quebec Nationalism here. But I fail to see how abandoning people to fascists does anything but bankrupt your ideology in return.

This is really a pointless statement. This is a discussion forum; the point is discussion, your position is your position and nothing more regardless of your real actions. Furthermore nobody here knows anything about anyone else's real actions, nor should it be assumed in a condescending fashion.

Sure, this is a discussion but making a statement here should have a point even, don't you agree? If not, why would you bother? So again, I ask what was the point to criticize these people? So that they should be abandoned? Or you just felt that this was apparently the right time to bring it up?

[RedWorker]

But I take it you wouldn't bother to help them either.

I'm not about to start making distinctions in the midst of a demonstration.

So how do you plan to win people over to your position, by criticizing something as emotionally, culturally and socially as important to them as their identity on rev-left?

This is exactly the kind of position I dislike: respect for people's shitty identities. We wouldn't give a fuck if we hurt a Spanish nationalist's feelings, oh wait, if he was carrying the bourgeois-republic flag some people here would shed tears.

I don't even know what to say to this. Sure, making a criticism is an action in the abstract sense. So is taking a piss an action (and possibly less abstract) but again I ask what is the usefulness of it here?

The point is that I haven't stopped nor will stop any Basque nationalist from defending against a fascist, yet, your point is really nothing but trying to stop criticism of nationalism.

I didn't make any comments at all about the Basque/Catalan movement.

Which is why I said: "Not that that's explicitly happening here, though in such discussions such things often quickly start happening."

In fact I asked questions. I asked simply to show me how these people are related to "pseudo-fascism". If I am missing something here, show me.

Nationalism can commonly degenerate into reactionary expressions; even so, it should be criticized on its own right.

If you are trying to say anyone waving a nationalist flag is a pseudo-fascist then you are just spouting ultra-leftist dogma and you may as well just throw the term fascism out the window. It no longer serves a useful purpose.

Nationalists are nationalists. I attack nationalism.

This sounds like you are saying that because they don't share your ultra-left position they aren't worthy of protection from fascists. Either this was not your intention when you said this or else you are an ultra-left purist who will deserve what they get when the fash come and beat you up and no mass support will protect you in return because you didn't do it for them and, well fuck you to.

All I'm saying is that I'm tired of e.g. people saying "you know nothing about Basque's oppression, you should shut up and follow my view" (which in its chivalrous expression is summarized as: "trying to protect the little defenseless Basque man"), and that this is even more stupid when it's said to a Basque person -- which is extremely common. Again, you didn't explicitly say this, nor did I claim that you did. It's just that there are undershadows of such things commonly occurring in such discussions, so it's best to get rid of them before they start.

I avoid the term "race" as much as possible for it implies there are significant scientific/biological differences between people and they can be categorized as such. For example a racist would say "Aryan race" whereas a more correct term might be "Caucasian ethnicity".

The point is that it's the same thing, and "ethnicity" just tries to legitimize the same concept that has been completely discredited by "race". What we should do is expose the concept of "ethnicity" as being fundamentally the same as "race". Of course, some leftists prefer the term "ethnicity" to "race" with good intentions, not wanting to step into racism, but this is a naive attitude.

To what degree? Not helping people fight fascism because they are not leftist enough for us? This sounds like the kind of failed anarchist shit that ruined the movement in Spain against fascism in the first place!

Like I said I wouldn't suddenly ask other people if they're Basque nationalists in a demonstration against fascism.

Actually it's the Stalinist counter-revolution which ruined it, with their shitty attitude of promoting "unity" while destroying the revolutionary left. And even in the case that someone may ask for genuine "unity" - often that is done in an abusive way to ask leftist groups to respect counter-revolutionary bullshit.

What the Spanish revolution proves, and in a thorough fashion, is just how shitty the "unity" promoted by Stalinists is, and how this kind of rhetoric enabled their every abuse.

It was the kind of unity promoted by the P.O.U.M. that showed just how positive unity can be - but not an unity that is subjugated to the counter-revolution.

Sure that's fine. There is similar problems with Quebec Nationalism here. But I fail to see how abandoning people to fascists does anything but bankrupt your ideology in return.

Firstly, "we" don't protect people from fascists. The people protect themselves. Anyone can participate, but not from a paternalist attitude.

Secondly, like I said I haven't prevented any nationalist from fighting fascism.

Or you just felt that this was apparently the right time to bring it up?

Yes, it's the right time to bring it up whenever so-called "leftists" don't say anything in the face of nationalism as has become so common, sometimes even extending to apologism for anti-Semitism.

[Comrade Marcel]

I'm not about to start making distinctions in the midst of a demonstration.

"Would you bother to show up in the first place?" I think was pretty clearly my question.

This is exactly the kind of position I dislike: respect for people's shitty identities. We wouldn't give a fuck if we hurt a Spanish nationalist's feelings, oh wait, if he was carrying the bourgeois-republic flag some people here would shed tears.

I don't live in Spain, but obviously just to compare to here I think there would be a pretty big difference between someone carrying a Maple Leaf and someone with the Fleur dis lis, at say, an anti-war demo. One is saying "war is un-Canadian" which is bullshit and the other is convening an anti-Anglo, anti-imperialist oppressed nationality standpoint.

At an anti-fascist/racist demo if there was a huge turnout and some people brought Canadian flags it certainly might make some people feel uncomfortable (myself included). Certainly some of my First Nations comrades. But I think the better tactics would be to work with them and then win them over after we have beat the fascists together.

Again, there are some problems with nationalism in almost any context.

But where do you draw the line? Would you criticize 1st Nations people for waving a Mohawk flag now?

The point is that I haven't stopped nor will stop any Basque nationalist from defending against a fascist, yet, your point is really nothing but trying to stop criticism of nationalism.

Except for the fact I never said this or tried to stop anything. I think it's pretty clear that we both have similar views in terms of what sort of end game we envision (communism and as such no borders or nations) but we differ on what tactics should be used in the struggle to get there. I never said nationalism should be left unchecked I simply asked what was the usefulness of the railing against them in this instance; and further to simply criticizing nationalism (which I likely would have just snickered about and moved on) the poster went further and labelled it as "pseudo-fascism".

Nationalism can commonly degenerate into reactionary expressions; even so, it should be criticized on its own right.

I agree, but sometimes it's tactically wise to play along, even if it's just for a moment.

Nationalists are nationalists. I attack nationalism.

Nationalists are not nationalists anymore than all communists are communists. I think we both know nationalism can vary widely from the left as social-democracy to the right as fascism and many trends in-between.

The point is that it's the same thing, and "ethnicity" just tries to legitimize the same concept that has been completely discredited by "race". What we should do is expose the concept of "ethnicity" as being fundamentally the same as "race". Of course, some leftists prefer the term "ethnicity" to "race" with good intentions, not wanting to step into racism, but this is a naive attitude.

It is important to distinguish the two because race claims that it is scientific and biological, making claims about intelligence and the shape of people's skull, etc. whereas the closest ethnicity comes to defining people along these lines is appearance or possibly genetics.

Again you are taking a super-left position and I kind of like it. But in reality it doesn't work when dealing with material conditions. Just ask the Palestinians to forget about being Palestinian and Arab and to ask the Zionists nicely if they would forget about being "Jews" and Israeli.

Like I said I wouldn't suddenly ask other people if they're Basque nationalists in a demonstration against fascism.

But would you show up in the first place?

Actually it's the Stalinist counter-revolution which ruined it, with their shitty attitude of promoting "unity" while destroying the revolutionary left. And even in the case that someone may ask for genuine "unity" - often that is done in an abusive way to ask leftist groups to respect counter-revolutionary bullshit.

I'm just going to save this whole discussion for another time. In fairness I shouldn't have brought it up because it's almost a whole other matter. But I disagree, obviously.

Firstly, "we" don't protect people from fascists. The people protect themselves. Anyone can participate, but not from a paternalist attitude.

Secondly, like I said I haven't prevented any nationalist from fighting fascism.

Sure, but lots of people are not activists. Lots of people are not fighters. There are specific types of people that undertake antifa regularly and their presence or failure to be present during more "mainstream" counter-demonstrations can make all of the difference!

Again, I ask you would you show up in the first place, or just stay home because a certain group is too nationalist for you?

And if you are willing to make these criticisms on rev-left, are you saying you would not say it to their face (I guess I don't blame you if they are holding a chainsaw, obviously). What I am asking is, are you willing to show up, help them fight fascists and then have some sort of discussion about the national question after? Or do you just not show up and rant about it on rev-left?

Yes, it's the right time to bring it up whenever so-called "leftists" don't say anything in the face of nationalism as has become so common, sometimes even extending to apologism for anti-Semitism.

I don't understand how anti-Semitism is in context here, please explain.

[RedWorker]

1) I would probably have the same likelihood of participating in an united anti-fascist action whether there are 0, 5, 50, or 500 Basque nationalists.
2) Yes, I would criticize Basque nationalists to their faces, but probably not in the midst of such a heated event.
3) Some people here did apologism for anti-Semitic actions because "you have to distinguish between the nationalism of the oppressed of the oppressors" (e.g., random Jewish people being attacked for being Jewish throughout the world immediately after Israel started a war event against Gaza) This is independent of my position on the Palestinian-Israel conflict, which is fully against the actions of Israel - nay, I believe the positions are linked, my position against Jewish nationalism is linked with my position against anti-Semitism.

Just ask the Palestinians to forget about being Palestinian and Arab and to ask the Zionists nicely if they would forget about being "Jews" and Israeli.

Well, the Jewish and Palestinian workers should be united in trying to solve the situation, and the best likelihood of achieving this should be by throwing nationalism in the trashcan.

[QueerVanguard]

I never thought I would see someone who used the word "fascist" more lazily than Glen Beck.

I said quasi fascist, shitball. and with good reason. These Basque nationalist turds share with fascism a devotion to the nation state and ethnic separatism. The reason Basque nationalists and Catalan nationalists oppose fascism in these contexts is because they see Fascism as a "spanish thing" and hate it for not recognizing their little identities and separatist aspirations, not because they're committed anti-racists or anti-nationalists.

So yea, I say fuck em both and will keep saying it. they're no comrades of mine

[Cliff Paul]

I said quasi fascist, shitball. and with good reason. These Basque nationalist turds share with fascism a devotion to the nation state and ethnic separatism. The reason Basque nationalists and Catalan nationalists oppose fascism in these contexts is because they see Fascism as a "spanish thing" and hate it for not recognizing their little identities and separatist aspirations, not because they're committed anti-racists or anti-nationalists.

So yea, I say fuck em both and will keep saying it. they're no comrades of mine

1. don't talk to Senpai that way. 2. believing in nation states doesn't make you a "quasi" fascist.

[QueerVanguard]

1. don't talk to Senpai that way. 2. believing in nation states doesn't make you a "quasi" fascist.

oh but its cool for him to compare me to fuckin glenn beck? Sharing fascist premises makes you quasi fascist, and running around spreading nationalist shit and agitating for ethnic/national separatism fits the bill

[Comrade Marcel]

These Basque nationalist turds share with fascism a devotion to the nation state and ethnic separatism.

Emotional attachment to a nation alone doesn't make one a quasi/crypto/pseudo/whatever-fascist. If that was the case then I think we can safely say the world's majority fit this character. That would be downright depressing, don't you think?

By "ethnic separatism" do you mean they propose to "kick out" people who are not Catalan / Basque if they gained their own state?

If this is the case with some of them, what makes you sure this is the view of the people we saw in the video?

The reason Basque nationalists and Catalan nationalists oppose fascism in these contexts is because they see Fascism as a "spanish thing" and hate it for not recognizing their little identities and separatist aspirations, not because they're committed anti-racists or anti-nationalists.

How do you know this, as a fact, about the people in the video? I'm genuinely curious.

I could say that for example someone carrying the Canadian flag could be seen as pseudo-fascist from the eyes of 1st Nations people; from their prospective Canada is! But the average flag waving Canuck doesn't consciously have that connection... They intent and emotion of the individual does matter.

[DOOM]

Really, you know who these guys are? Because the entire movement is Basque in homogeneous?

"Ethnic bullshit"? Are you saying ethnicity doesn't exist? Black people should just pretend they are colour blind? How about fuck your ultra-leftist dogma?

Nationalism is never the answer to opression. Specifically black nationalism has always been a direct answer to white supremacy and only existed because of it. Even in their wildest dreams they weren't able to strip down remnants of white supremacy.

And lol at a moist calling someone an ultra-leftist
Everyone is an ultra-leftist from your viewpoint