Greece's offer to the EU

[FSL]

That is what I said when I said when you are:

Quote:
favoring the option of internal KKE-advanced revolution in Greece at a similar time frame of a pan-European revolution

The pan-european revolution is something born our of your imagination.
Never did I say that a "pan-european revolution at a similar time frame" is a prerequisite and certainly not in that quote of mine. A revolution is the solution for Greece and it shouldn't sit around waiting for other countries, it should go for socialism.
Try to read people's answers.

Basically...like I said...in order for a revolution to succeed it needs to be pan-European, at the very least, or else there would be no real change.

Oh so it's you saying that and it's your stance that leaves everyone where Syriza currently is, not mine.
Glad we cleared that out.

[PhoenixAsh]

Actually those were your arguments in the past.

As it stands now you seem to be of the opinion that leaving the EU would devastate the Greek economy, unless the KKE leads a revolution in Greece alone. In that case you are under the impression that leaving the EU would be completely different because...socialism works in one country.

My position is that the KKE would be, and is, exactly the same as Syriza and has proven to be so in the past. My position in this thread is that KKE in the same electoral position as Syriza (remember that the KKE is a participant in the bourgeois parliamentary circuit) would have had no alternative than to co-opt capitalism and would have done so regardless of whether they chose to govern or chose opposition. I am openly wondering as to how you would argue when the KKE had been in that position.

This is not an endorsement of Syriza. It is simply wondering if you have more to offer than platitudes that come directly from the propaganda machine of the KKE.

It is also my position that a revolution in Greece alone would be similar in effect to its economy as would leaving the EU. Not only is it not possible to create socialism in one country to any meaningful extent unless the country is fully self sufficient, which Greece is not...not by a long shot, but the economy of Greece is entirely dependent on international trade and a revolution would result in its ejection from the EU. The revolutionary government in the Greek socialist utopian society would still have to mold itself to the international capitalist context in order to function...and would therefore not be socialist. Especially given the bureaucratic background of the party rooted in Stalinism...this will eventually result in at the very best...a state capitalist situation.

[FSL]

Actually those were your arguments in the past.

I'm 100% sure they weren't.

socialism works in one country

Of course it does.

My position is that the KKE would be, and is, exactly the same as Syriza and has proven to be so in the past. My position in this thread is that KKE in the same electoral position as Syriza (remember that the KKE is a participant in the bourgeois parliamentary circuit) would have had no alternative than to co-opt capitalism and would have done so regardless of whether they chose to govern or chose opposition. I am openly wondering as to how you would argue when the KKE had been in that position.

This is not an endorsement of Syriza. It is simply wondering if you have more to offer than platitudes that come directly from the propaganda machine of the KKE.

We've established that this is not an opinion, it is merely a fantasy.

It is also my position that a revolution in Greece alone would be similar in effect to its economy as would leaving the EU. Not only is it not possible to create socialism in one country to any meaningful extent unless the country is fully self sufficient, which Greece is not...not by a long shot, but the economy of Greece is entirely dependent on international trade and a revolution would result in its ejection from the EU. The revolutionary government in the Greek socialist utopian society would still have to mold itself to the international capitalist context in order to function...and would therefore not be socialist. Especially given the bureaucratic background of the party rooted in Stalinism...this will eventually result in at the very best...a state capitalist situation.

Saying a revolution has to happen "everywhere" is the easiest way of denying a revolution and not coming off as a reactionary.
Socialism isn't about "self-sufficiency" unless you agree with Kimilsungism. Ejection from the EU doesn't mean an embargo from the EU and if it did Greece would hope you can prevent it or stop it. Of course there would need to be trade and some uncertainty in production. But much less uncertainty than there is today. And also no capitalists.

[PhoenixAsh]

I'm 100% sure they weren't.

....

Of course it does.

Really? Because name one example.

We've established that this is not an opinion, it is merely a fantasy.

"we" have established nothing of that sort. In fact..."we" can establish objectively that the KKE has done so in the past. And while it says it won't ever do so again...the fact that they participate in the bourgeois parliamentary elections with the aim to gain seats will objectively lead to a contextual situation if they had the electoral results of Syriza where they would have no alternative than to co-opt capitalism one way or the other.

Saying a revolution has to happen "everywhere" is the easiest way of denying a revolution and not coming off as a reactionary.

I am not saying it has to happen everywhere. I am saying it needs to happen in an area large enough to be self sufficient and doesn't need to rely on trade with capitalist nations in order to bring some semblance to actual communism instead of the state capitalist bureaucratic perversion of something completely different except in name only.

Socialism isn't about "self-sufficiency" unless you agree with Kimilsungism.

No it isn't. But anybody with half a brain knows that when you need to trade with capitalist nations for things like...oil, vegetables and fruits...you need to have a profit and surplus oriented economic arrangement...which will invariably lead to exploitation....which is wholly unlike socialism as it is understood by anybody except the ones who promote bureaucratic state capitalism.

Ejection from the EU doesn't mean an embargo from the EU and if it did Greece would hope you can prevent it or stop it.

I can do anything when I feel like it....even change EU policy. It is just that I have been a bit lazy and preoccupied lately...

But I do get what you are saying. And you don't seem to get what I am saying. The fact is simply this...whether or not Greece has a revolution does not negate the necessity to adopt a system in which surplus value is created in order to be able to trade with the EU. This can't happen in a socialist country...leading to a trade deficit on import products. Resulting in a collapse of the economy. So a capitalist mode of production needs to be introduced to some extend. Similar to what would happen if Greece would leave the EU in its current state.

Of course there would need to be trade and some uncertainty in production. But much less uncertainty than there is today. And also no capitalists.

No. There would be capitalists. You would need to create surplus value in order to trade.

[FSL]

ut anybody with half a brain knows that when you need to trade with capitalist nations for things like...oil, vegetables and fruits...you need to have a profit and surplus oriented economic arrangement...which will invariably lead to exploitation

I'm not sure you know what you're talking about. To have imports you need to have exports. Greece would export vegetable and fruit (or tourist services) and import things like oil. Depending on the economy's state and on the need to not have a trade deficit -this is what's actually important- Greece might have to import less cars. Fine, more people would take the bus.
If that's our problem, than the improvement compared to today would be huge.

No. There would be capitalists. You would need to create surplus value in order to trade.

What? So olive oil from state farms and tourism services in hotels operated by the workers' state can't be traded? Why?

[PhoenixAsh]

You do not need exports to have imports. Although that would affect your trade balance.

The products I mentioned are in fact the current imports by Greece according to some site. But I'll settle for the category oil and food as well.

Oil is not only used for cars. Its main use is in industry and energy production. The solution is not as simple as "more people take the bus"...it would be more like...more people will stand in line for the bus which will only rarely be able to drive and suffer from rolling black outs at night and will have to use a whole lot more candles and fire wood....incidentally also two things Greece imports.

[FSL]

You do not need exports to have imports. Although that would affect your trade balance.

Exports give you foreign currency. You use foreign currency for imports.

The products I mentioned are in fact the current imports by Greece according to some site. But I'll settle for the category oil and food as well.

Oil is not only used for cars. Its main use is in industry and energy production. The solution is not as simple as "more people take the bus"...it would be more like...more people will stand in line for the bus which will only rarely be able to drive and suffer from rolling black outs at night and will have to use a whole lot more candles and fire wood....incidentally also two things Greece imports.

Why do imports go to 0 or near 0? Is there any economical reason?
Do you understand what you're saying?

[PhoenixAsh]

Exports give you foreign currency. You use foreign currency for imports.

Really? Because no. Usually foreign currency is bought and sold on the foreign exchange markets.

Why do imports go to 0 or near 0? Is there any economical reason?
Do you understand what you're saying?

Do they? And do you?

If Greece can't produce essentials like food, oil, fire wood, candles. This is a serious problem if there is no import of these products....which are needed by the population in order to maintain a living standard...or alive for that matter....or production capacity. This is not simply a matter of "Oh well...we do without it because look at our nice red flag".

At the same time. If you want to buy $100 worth of products then you need to have $100 to be able to do so. These $100 need to be produced. The $100 of products you are going to buy from a capitalist company has surplus value in its worth. How do you plan to get the $100 of production you need to buy the products with a socialist mode of production without creating either surplus value or a labor cost deficit and therefore scarcity and unequality.

[FSL]

Really? Because no. Usually foreign currency is bought and sold on the foreign exchange markets.



Do they? And do you?

If Greece can't produce essentials like food, oil, fire wood, candles. This is a serious problem if there is no import of these products....which are needed by the population in order to maintain a living standard...or alive for that matter....or production capacity. This is not simply a matter of "Oh well...we do without it because look at our nice red flag".

At the same time. If you want to buy $100 worth of products then you need to have $100 to be able to do so. These $100 need to be produced. The $100 of products you are going to buy from a capitalist company has surplus value in its worth. How do you plan to get the $100 of production you need to buy the products with a socialist mode of production without creating either surplus value or a labor cost deficit and therefore scarcity and unequality.

1) You can buy euros with dollars in the forex markets but other currencies aren't used as much or at all in the forex markets. The countries that have these currencies use a currency like dollar or euro for their foreign trade. They build foreign currency reserves through exports and use them for imports.

2) Products aimed to be exported are produced as commodities. A week's holiday could be free for every person in the country but tourists would need to pay obviously. Workers employed in the "export industry" would receive the same payment in kind or in labor vouchers that everyone else does. Of course these foreign tourist hotels would need to earn money and these money is used for imports. These imports are part of the "payment in kind or through labor vouchers" workers receive. No one is stealing the money these export companies make from them.

[cyu]

It's easy to make a nation obey once they replace mass politics with representative politics. Once they rely on representatives to do things, you have less people to deal with. If you can't bribe them, you blackmail them. If you can't blackmail them, you threaten their immediate family. Easy to do when you're the type to impose austerity on your own people and are willing to sacrifice half the Ukrainian population for NATO strategy.

On the other hand, a cynical citizenry is not a stable population.

[Kill all the fetuses!]

So there is deal, apparently. It's pretty much the same austerity, it's just that Greece now has a little bit more place to manoeuvre, at least theoretically. So for instance they agreed to not increasing pensions and public sector wages, but intend to take from higher earners and giving to the poorer ones thus leaving the bill as such not increased. They put more emphasis on tax evasion and soaking the oligarchs etc. They also claimed that minimum wage wouldn't be increased without consultation with the troika. Well, many things really, but ultimately little has changed apart from this theoretical space to manoeuvre, which will be quite different from practical space to manoeuvre.

Most notably, however, they agreed to go full speed ahead with privatisations, which was one of these red lines that the Left Platform drew. Apparently there is quite a bit of dissatisfaction within the ranks of Syriza, with at least 50 CC members requesting an urgent meeting, which would explain this deal (which just goes to show how autonomous the leaders are from the CC or the rest of the party). Most notable men from the Left Platform publicly condemned the outcome of the negotiation and ANEL doesn't seem too happy as well.

But as always, let's wait for FSL with his comments. I am particularly interested in how greeks themselves reacted to this and maybe some more details what's happening within the ranks of Syriza.

[FSL]

The government's promised programs for the very poor will go through in a "fiscally neutral manner" when prior to the elections they had predicted a cost of 1.9 billion euros. This means that they will either not go through at all, go through but with the addition of new taxes or just make it so that almost no one is eligible. In case you didn't know, there were benefits for the poor under the previous government as well (as I guess there are in every country under every government).


They also promise to
1) "rationalize" the value added tax, probably with increases in the islands where it's reduced
2) cut down on public employees "non-wage income" (overtime pay and stuff like that),
3) put barriers for getting pension early, they were told to do more
4) not protect residencies from auctions (instead they say they'll work with the bankers to avoid such phenomena),
5) Respect the privatizations and the ongoing competitions for further privatizations. Consider privatizations taking into account the valuations etc
6) Adopt the "best practices" for the labor market. No increase in the minimum wage without consultation with bussiness owners, the "institutions", the ILO and even a special committee that will be examining whether the increases in the minimum wage correspond to an increase in productivity.
IMF's head, Lagarde, asked for more specific reforms.
7) Remove barriers of entry for certain professions (again the IMF asked them to be more specific)
8) reduce the wages of high-earners in the public sector (for example people working in the finance ministry)
9) Fight tax-evasion and smuggling activities. I wouldn't get my hopes high.


All in all this is the same deal we had before. This list is a "starting point", these measures will need to be discussed with the institutions (and not the troika!), specified and then implemented. The final review will be in April as things stand.
The only thing that changed was that there is no definite commitment to reduce auxiliary pensions but that will probably change in a matter of weeks.


Many greeks are still in denial, they expect to see the "something better" part. Government's vagueness and doublespeak plays a part in this. The communist party brings a law to increase the minimum wage, reinstall collective labor agreements, pensions etc but it would seem that the "left majority" will refuse to vote it. There are also protests against the government scheduled for the next days by the communist party and antarsya (which until last week participated in pro-government rallies, encouraging them to be "tough" in the negotiations).

[Creative Destruction]

lol, bourgeois politics.

[cyu]

The New Obama

[FSL]

During the weekend, the government kept leaking that the list was only the program for the poor (without the "fiscally neutral" part) and point 9 about tax evasion and smuggling.
New Democracy and Pasok spoke out against syriza because according to them we have the same deal but we're in a worse situation (high bond yields, a rumored 3rd bailout in July), while to Potami has said it will support the reforms.

A government meeting took place earlier, afterwards Lafazanis (head of left platform) was asked by reporters if there had been any reservations and he replied "Objections as well".

[cyu]

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/02/s...up-kouvelakis/

to make it abundantly clear that the use of the term “institutions” instead of the term “troika” is window-dressing, the text specifically reaffirms the tripartite composition of the supervisory mechanism, emphasizing that the “institutions” include the ECB (“against this background we recall the independence of the European Central Bank”) and the International Monetary Fund (“we also agreed that the IMF would continue to play its role”).

whatever the electoral result, no reversal of austerity is feasible within the existing European framework. As European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker stated, “there can be no democratic choice against the European treaties.”

Syriza’s Manolis Glezos was therefore right to speak of “illusion” and, rising to the occasion, apologize to the people for having contributed to cultivating it.

Afraid to do what Glezos has dared to do — i.e. acknowledge the failure of its entire strategy — the leadership is attempting a cover-up, “passing off meat as fish,” to cite the popular Greek saying.

But to present a defeat as a success is perhaps worse than the defeat itself. it turns governmental discourse into a string of clichés and platitudes. it prepares the ground for the next, more definitive, defeats, because it dissolves the criteria by which success can be distinguished from retreat.

we must look reality in the face and speak the language of honesty. “The truth is revolutionary,” to cite the words of a famous leader who knew what he was talking about.

[FSL]

People like Kouvelakis who find themselves in that position should -if there is an ounce of honesty in them- retire from politics and lock themselves in their home to protect everyone else from their awful judgement.

Instead they will either continue to give a radical alibi to syriza or -if things come to that- break away to propose the same thing, another version of an imaginary humane capitalism.

[cyu]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-0...it-kiev-athens

The IMF and EU make a lot of noise about all the conditions Greece has to address to get even a mild extension of support, while the same IMF and EU keep on handing out cash to Ukraine without as much as a whisper – at least publicly.

Spare no expense capturing the slave, but once you've got him, make sure you get your return on investment.

[Kill all the fetuses!]

For those interested, a couple of days ago there was a debate between Stathis Kouvelakis, member of Syriza’s central committee, representing the Left Platform and Alex Callinicos, editor of International Socialism.

I was eagerly waiting for the debate, expecting some sort of a direct clash, complete disagreement etc., considering some critical articles that Callinicos has published in the Internal Socialism journal etc. But what I got was... meh. I mean, I will listen to it again as I was rather tired yesterday, but I didn't really enjoy the vibe of the debate nor I learnt anything that I didn't know before. But be the judge yourself, here's the debate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV2jCTBjlpQ

[Creative Destruction]

The socialist movement seems to be a joke.