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My subjective view is that they'll say yes to anything, up to the point where they lose all legitimacy by continuing to do so. They exist to be the left alibi of syriza. Milios, who is somewhat of a 'marxian intellectual", the head of syriza's economics committee and who stands somewhere between Tsipras and the left platform (but who's also very pro-europe) said in a comment on facebook that this is not the time to whine or talk about how leftist you are because "the cause" is what's important.
There is it would seem an agreement in the eurogroup. No details yet.
...We shall never recognise equality with the peasant profiteer, just as we do not recognise “equality” between the exploiter and the exploited, between the sated and the hungry, nor the “freedom” for the former to rob the latter. And those educated people who refuse to recognise this difference we shall treat as whiteguards, even though they may call themselves democrats, socialists, internationalists, Kautskys, Chernovs, or Martovs.
V.I. Lenin
Greece Reaches Accord With European Officials to Extend Bailout
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/21/bu...ministers.html
Greece Reaches Accord With European Officials to Extend Bailout
By LIZ ALDERMAN and JAMES KANTER
FEB. 20, 2015
BRUSSELS — European leaders agreed Friday to extend Greece’s bailout for four months after weeks of tense negotiations.
The deal, reached at an emergency meeting of eurozone finance ministers here, paves the way for Greece to unlock further financial aid from a 240 billion euro, or $273 billion, bailout deal, provide the country meets certain commitments laid out by its creditors.
“I’m glad to report to you that the work has paid off,” Jeroen Dijsselbloem, the head of the Eurogroup of finance ministers, said at a news conference. “We have established common ground again.”
The deal is likely to give Greece breathing room. But it will hardly put the country past the worst of its economic and financial troubles.
Niki Kitsantonis contributed reporting from Athens.
It seems that the exact concessions/reforms are yet to be formally put forward by Greece on Monday so that the troika can evaluate how extensive they are.
The Guardian also reports that some greek analysts expressed deep dissatisfaction with concessions being made and "radicals" within the party as well as greeks themselves are likely to be dissatisfied by the development.
Morality is everything which contributes to the triumph of the revolution. Immoral and criminal is everything that stands in its way.
The agreement:
Important changes are imo:
This is included in regards to the loan agreement, the government's line was that the loan and the terms are different things
The "as assessed by the institutions" part was added
The deficit targets remain what they were, 3% and 4.5%, but this target is more relaxed for this year and the institutions will have the final say (as I said earlier because of the elections the budget execution was not going well at all this year).
Greece has until Monday to present the "reforms" it wants to enact based on the current arrangement, it then needs to specify them and won't receive money until April after a successful review.
PS Notice the use of the words arrangements and institutions. They replace the words memorandum/programme and troika.
It's probably the biggest difference but I'll let you be the judge.
...We shall never recognise equality with the peasant profiteer, just as we do not recognise “equality” between the exploiter and the exploited, between the sated and the hungry, nor the “freedom” for the former to rob the latter. And those educated people who refuse to recognise this difference we shall treat as whiteguards, even though they may call themselves democrats, socialists, internationalists, Kautskys, Chernovs, or Martovs.
V.I. Lenin
FSL, if you see any interesting development in the mood among greeks or greek media - let us know, I personally would massively appreciate that.
Morality is everything which contributes to the triumph of the revolution. Immoral and criminal is everything that stands in its way.
When Obama was elected in the US, it actually turned out to be a disaster for "liberal" movements in the country. What happened was that they basically said, "Hey look, one of us is in the White House now. We can finally go home." And so they went home, and nothing happened.
This is what is happening in Greece. Instead of seeing the election as "permission" for leftists to do what they've always wanted to do, they decide the "right" people are now in power, so they do nothing.
See also: http://reddit.com/r/socialism http://www.reddit.com/r/anarchistnews http://reddit.com/r/anarchism
The only slaves who are happy, are the crazy ones.
@cyu -- I hear you on that. Just for the sake of historical record -- the Obama victory was one of the most carefully scripted from the ruling classes, though they had their money on and McCain and Palin too.
When he got elected I was like wtf who cares -- got to work that day -- and all these black women I worked with -- in Canada! -- were saying they'd never been prouder of being Black than that day.
I really appreciate the contributions of all those who are discussing this seriously -- the world is at a turning point. I don't put any faith in silly institutions. I do respect leadership when it happens and folks who tell the truth. We don't need to agree on 17 zillion points.
Peace up to those who struggle.
Given how denigrated the black population has been in the North American continent for 4 some-odd centuries, this is, at least, an extremely understandable reaction. Especially when just a year prior to Obama's election, you had everyone -- even black folks, probably especially so -- saying that a black man would never be in the White House in their lives.
Symbolically, it was huge for the black community. No matter how radically we feel about it, or how radically fucked up Obama's tenure has been, that's not something that really should be questioned or trampled on, I don't think.
This shows how much the entire bourgeois electoral 'game' is glorified and celebrated, even to the point of it being *detached* from the underlying politics / economics itself.
Really this whole *system* of class-division just encourages everyone to come out of hibernation once in awhile and 'play politics' in the style of a junket at the casino.
It's too early for the reality to kick in I guess. There is disillusionment and the general idea is that this is "more of the same but maybe a bit better", for no real reason.
As I had said before, based on where we were in 2011-12 people turning to Syriza was a conservative turn exactly because they promised no clashes neither with the greek capitali class nor with the EU. They promised they would be better negotiators. Of course reality bites. Someone who thought that a better negotiation would be enough, will find out it isn't.
The greek media are supporting the outcome and interestingly I'm unaware of any concrete comments from the Left Platform. There is only one article late last night describing the new deal as an aenigma and saying "it leaves the room open for question marks, hopes and worries."
The way Syriza has tried to spin the news is disgusting. Last night Varoufakis shamelessly suggested that the greek government wants to do the reforms this agreement implies and that the only reason he is sending the letter on Monday is because the "institutions" are his buddies and he wants their opinion.
Today Syriza's paper came out with this front page:
which reads:
New era
without a memorandum and a troika
The austerity I get, the insult to everyone's intelligence though...
...We shall never recognise equality with the peasant profiteer, just as we do not recognise “equality” between the exploiter and the exploited, between the sated and the hungry, nor the “freedom” for the former to rob the latter. And those educated people who refuse to recognise this difference we shall treat as whiteguards, even though they may call themselves democrats, socialists, internationalists, Kautskys, Chernovs, or Martovs.
V.I. Lenin
Thanks, FSL, appreciated. The only comments that I can see in English are those of the Communist Tendency, but they are marginal as well as their position is very clear and unchanging and they don't tend to comment on the political dynamic within the party, so that's not of much use.
I remember seeing a screen-shot from Greek TV, which showed how many people support which party, i.e. "if election happened today, which one of these parties would you vote for?". How often do these come about in Greece nowadays? If it's frequent, it would be interesting to see how the support for Syriza is developing as the last time I saw that image, Syriza had 40%+ support from the electorate.
Morality is everything which contributes to the triumph of the revolution. Immoral and criminal is everything that stands in its way.
The Guardian reports Tsipras addressing Greeks:
"“We kept Greece standing and dignified,” said Tsipras adding that the deal had ended the unrealistic primary surpluses demanded by the previous bailout plan signed by his predecessor. “In effect it cancels austerity … In a few days we have achieved a lot but we have a long road. We have taken a decisive step to change course within the eurozone. Now negotiations enter a new, effective stage.”"
I am just not sure if he's that cynical or he actually believes it was some sort of victory for Greece. Consider, for instance, that Schaeuble, German finance minister, said after the negotiations that Syriza will have to explain this deal to its electorate. Confusing rhetoric, isn't it? But then again, Syriza's rhetoric has always been confusing.
Morality is everything which contributes to the triumph of the revolution. Immoral and criminal is everything that stands in its way.
He's that cynical.
The perpetually shocked communist tendency of Syriza (they're the greek section of the IMT and represent about 2% of the party) were the first -and so far the only ones- to voice their objection. They ask the MPs to not ratify the agreement and also for a congress to be held immediately to change the policies and party leadership.
I think they'll move their entryism elsewhere soon.
We get many polls, we'll have some tomorrow I bet but I think we need to get a glimpse of what the "reforms" will be on Monday before they matter. I think that the government has been somewhat dishonest about what these reforms would entail.
...We shall never recognise equality with the peasant profiteer, just as we do not recognise “equality” between the exploiter and the exploited, between the sated and the hungry, nor the “freedom” for the former to rob the latter. And those educated people who refuse to recognise this difference we shall treat as whiteguards, even though they may call themselves democrats, socialists, internationalists, Kautskys, Chernovs, or Martovs.
V.I. Lenin
Obviously you have a much better understanding of the situation playing out within SYRIZA right now, but I would be quite surprised if that is the course of action the IMT takes. The Grantites are fairly renowned for their ability to repeatedly smash their head against a brick wall. Given the fact that, as an organization, they have a complete misunderstanding of the french turn, they have a fairly extensive history of liquidating themselves into outfits with some pretty despicable politics. I suspect that they'll continue to be the 'perpetually outraged' faction of SYRIZA, while repeating their mantra that when the workers move it will be through mass social-democratic parties.
for anyone who wants to read what this communist tendency of syriza has to say(in english), demands are at the bottom:
http://www.marxist.com/greece-no-mor...-offensive.htm
lets just ignore that nationalization as a concept has many problems on its own, everyone knows that none of these demands will even be considered by the leaders and leading tendencys in syriza, not even in their wildest dreams/nightmares.
i also think it is quite interesting to see what partys that saw/see syriza as a inspiring model, like podemos and left unity, would have to say about this, obvious betrayal. at least for podemos i assume if they actually will get power in spain they will go the same route as syriza in a heartbeat.
All i want is a Marxist Hunk.
It is true that labor produces for the rich wonderful things – but for the worker it produces privation. It produces palaces – but for the worker, hovels. It produces beauty – but for the worker, deformity. It replaces labor by machines, but it throws one section of the workers back into barbarous types of labor and it turns the other section into a machine. It produces intelligence – but for the worker, stupidity, cretinism.
Wer hat uns verraten? Sozialdemokraten!
I'll be honest, the idea of 'nationalizing a bank under worker's control' seems extremely confusing to me.
"He rather hated the ruling few than loved the suffering many."
Formerly known as Pragmatic-Punk / Right Hand Of Jah / Heinous Bifter
It's gibberish, purposeful at that; the bit about "workers' control" is to calm down some hotheaded radicals.
FKA LinksRadikal
“The possibility of securing for every member of society, by means of socialized production, an existence not only fully sufficient materially, and becoming day by day more full, but an existence guaranteeing to all the free development and exercise of their physical and mental faculties – this possibility is now for the first time here, but it is here.” Friedrich Engels
"The proletariat is its struggle; and its struggles have to this day not led it beyond class society, but deeper into it." Friends of the Classless Society
"Your life is survived by your deeds" - Steve von Till
Well, they are rather explicit about what they mean by workers' control in their original paper on the socialist programme of Syriza, which can be found here: http://www.marxist.com/ten-programma...for-syriza.htm
Morality is everything which contributes to the triumph of the revolution. Immoral and criminal is everything that stands in its way.
Ok, so there was a poll today but it took place between 12 and 17 of the month so no real importance. The only notable thing about is that while it was ordered by Syriza's paper, Aygh, it asked people whether they felt "national pride" during the negotiations. 81% said yes.
So far the government and media narrative was that the government would send a list of reforms "to fight corruption, tax evasion and the humanitarian crisis". Today was the first time I saw a news site mention that the institutions might also want to see prerequisites related to the programme.
Last and more interesting, Manolis Glezos, who you might know as one of the two men that took down the nazi flag from the Acropolis during the nazi occupation and who is currently a MEP for Syriza, came out and in pretty blunt terms apologized for the renaming of the memorandum and the troika, said he was sorry he helped in this deceipt and called for meetings of all syriza organizations to decide if they accept this. He leads a small group called "Active Citizens" but syriza always had him at the forefront to reap gains from his reputation.
Glezos' politics leave a lot to be desired but at his age he probably doesn't share the cynicism of a Tsipras or a Varoufakis who have decades of a wonderful career ahead of them.
...We shall never recognise equality with the peasant profiteer, just as we do not recognise “equality” between the exploiter and the exploited, between the sated and the hungry, nor the “freedom” for the former to rob the latter. And those educated people who refuse to recognise this difference we shall treat as whiteguards, even though they may call themselves democrats, socialists, internationalists, Kautskys, Chernovs, or Martovs.
V.I. Lenin
That is what I said when I said when you are:
My question was what should happen in the current context. I asked this question to lead to the following follow up question:
"what would the KKE have done had they had the same electoral results as Syriza"
The resulting position of the KKE would have invariably led them into a similar position where they were in Limbo between co-opting a capitalist mode of production heading a government or, if they chose the opposition, where they at the very least would have been in a position of shared responsibility to work within a capitalist frame work by being responsible for the resulting minority governments governing.
An internal revolution led by the KKE, even if possible and it currently is not, would have had no real effect on the situation in Greece unless you are of the opinion that Greece is self sufficient enough to support communism in one country. So the KKE would at the very least in the event of a revolution have to pay lip service to the capitalist mode of production. The situation would be more or less similar to the consequences of leaving the EU. Basically...like I said...in order for a revolution to succeed it needs to be pan-European, at the very least, or else there would be no real change.
