There is no state in communism, so the transformation that would take effect is the abolition of the state. Who knows how long it would take.
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The Birth of Communism
Can it happen? There have been attempts before, but they failed. If a revolution were to suddenly happen somewhere, could it be better than the previous ones? What about a different approach? Obviously, no attempt at communism has ever considered having no higher-ups making decisions. And, as most people here would agree, a state can't go from capitalism to communism without transition. How long would this transition take? What would it consist of?
Bonus question: If you were in a position with a lot of power (such as PM/President), what would you do? Just curious about this one.
There is no state in communism, so the transformation that would take effect is the abolition of the state. Who knows how long it would take.
If I'm the president something went unbelievably wrong.
"We have seen: a social revolution possesses a total point of view because – even if it is confined to only one factory district – it represents a protest by man against a dehumanized life" - Marx
"But to push ahead to the victory of socialism we need a strong, activist, educated proletariat, and masses whose power lies in intellectual culture as well as numbers." - Luxemburg
fka the greatest Czech player of all time, aka Pavel Nedved
Interesting questions. And nobody wants answer them because economic knowledge of the vast majority of this forum is very low. But the answer is simple. There must be a law that democratizes workplaces. All decisions should be made by workers in voting or workers should choose a manager who they could fire any time. And it should be supervised by militia transformed from police.
The rest should be decided by referendums. But it's only possible when whole world is dominated by revolution. When it's only in part, the capitalist states will destroy such attempts.
"Property is theft."
Pierre-Joseph Proudhon
"the system of wage labor is a system of slavery"
Karl Heinrich Marx
there's no such thing as "attempts of communism" since communism logistically is economics with the human invented concepts of money and capital removed.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one
~Spock
lowtech is right, there haven't been 'attempts at communism' that failed, there have been revolutions that failed.
the revoution is the beginning of a process that can lead to the creation of a (worldwide) communist society. They're not the creation of that society.
Until the revolution is susccesful worldwide, we're not going to get to communist society.
Critique of the Gotha Programme, Pt IV: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch04.htm
No War but the Class War
Destroy All Nations
Lucius Accius (170 BC - 86 BC): "A man whose life has been dishonorable is not entitled to escape disgrace in death."
Going along and agreeing with what everyone else has already said, certain revolutions have failed. This is due to one overarching reason: capitalism has always found a way to parasitically creep into even the purest hearted revolutions and instill corruption. This is primarily due to the strength of the capitalist western world. I personally think the next large scale attempt of revolution has to occur during a crisis, whether that be an economic or militaristic crisis. Crises are ways that allow the subjugated proletariat to see the perils of the system that is enslaving them. With that mindset, a revolution can be born. Furthermore the capitalist state is weakest during times of crisis protecting one thing or another. I also think a revolution must occur in a large western power, hopefully the USA. If the revolution does not occur in the USA, a sufficiently strong and sustainable resistance has to be present in the USA so that the capitalist juggernaut is occupied with quelling a domestic problem and in turn allows Marxist ideologies to spread and revolutionary strength in the world increase.
And what would even bring about a significant enough "economic or militaristic crisis" to form a revolution, but a revolution itself?
You are either speaking a tautology, or you're not fully convinced a revolution will ever actually occur.
I'd paint the White House red.
Where's my bonus?
Regards,
Alan OldStudent
The unexamined life is not worth living—Socrates
Gracias a la vida, que me ha dado tanto—Violeta Parra
The removal of money and capital implies a state of global and local affairs that are qualitatively greater than simply the removal of money and capital.
Communism is the non-existence of classes (which implies extreme socialization of the means of production) and a society where all exploitation and oppression has been eliminated. These are major social changes that communist revolutionaries worldwide have as the aim/goal of their movement. And this is what they are attempting to bring about as soon as possible.
Last edited by Tim Redd; 1st January 2015 at 03:26.
Yes, it is possible. It has been happening successful for over 5 decades now. I am talking about the mondragon corporation. Its from Spain. Look it up. In the US, silicon valley, every year hundreds of people quit Microsoft, dell, apple, google, etc, and get together with their friends in a garage and as equals decide what their little company does. This is where the ingenuity happens in American tech. If you ask them why they like it, they will tell you i feel better about myself, i am more productive, and my job is so great i don't even consider it work. The best part though is that these businessmen are republicans. Republican communists.
As a last thought though, at the beggining of capitalism, it started of small, and usually a Lord would tell men on horses with pointy long sticks to run these capitalists down. But people persisted because they wanted a better life. So will we.
Please detail the ideology of Republican communism. I seriously doubt that it's possible to have such an ideology....In the US, silicon valley, every year hundreds of people quit Microsoft, dell, apple, google, etc, and get together with their friends in a garage and as equals decide what their little company does. This is where the ingenuity happens in American tech. If you ask them why they like it, they will tell you i feel better about myself, i am more productive, and my job is so great i don't even consider it work. The best part though is that these businessmen are republicans
I have observed that a good many of these people are liberals, liberal Democrats. They are still very much wedded to capitalist ideology and values, but are left center rather than right center. That means they are potentially closer to adopting radical left politics than being extreme rightists. Let's be clear, liberalism must be attacked in order to have a successful socialist revolution, however I'm noting simply that a good many venture capitalists are liberals rather than Republicans.
Last edited by Tim Redd; 10th January 2015 at 08:15.
Its not an ideology, its just irony. Many of these people are republicans, and they have no concept of class. They still think they are capitalist. Just a little fun to point out. Its something we should point out. That "these democratic workplaces are where the ingenuity happens, where innovation happens, where people are happier. Oh, btw, many of these people happen to be republicans. Lol." Its a talking point we could use to help take some support away from the republican establishment in a possible near future.
So ingenuity only happens in bourgeois capitalist firms? Tell that to the masses who show ingenuity in their New Orleans carnival groups, in the fund drives to get medical car to poor and working class kids, to the teacher and parent PTA's drives that supplement school spending, to workers who scheme to shut down assembly line speedups. How about the ingenuity protestors are showing in opposing police brutality and murder. Or how the ingenious tactics shown by protestors around Occupy Wall Street. Ad infinitum.Originally Posted by Vogel
Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of people around the world, who come up with ingenuity that assists and leads the masses of people in their struggle against the blood sucking worldwide capitalist system.
Tell the masses that they'll be "happier" working in and for bourgeois capitalist firms.
I think you'll get plenty of opposition to your "be a capitalist tool and be happy" take on things. Are you really a leftist? You sound more like a Republican.
Last edited by Tim Redd; 11th January 2015 at 23:53.
If capitalist firms were the only place ingenuity occurs, which is a rediculous notion, we'd have gone exstinct tens of thousands of years ago. Did money invent fire? Did fire become intelectual property? and if such a notion existed those many milenia ago, would it have been conducive to survival at all?
Ingenuity is innate and harcoded in our DNA. Its not a benefit of plutocratic benevolence.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one
~Spock
Goodness gracious, I did not say in bourgeois capitalist firms. In cooperatives, worker self directed enterprises. The workers of apple and Microsoft, etc., leave, start a co-op. They are not capitalist. They just THINK they are (important for you to understand), because they don't know a thing about classes.
My bad, though, for skipping out on explaining the difference between workers managing their own company together; and top down, hierarchical exploitative companies.
I pointed out the bit about being republican because I thought the irony was funny.
Of course they're capitalist. Capitalism is generalised wage labour + commodity production. These are wage-paying businesses that produce commodities, that exist in a capitalist system, ergo they are capitalist.
Co-operatives also have some of the worst ratyes of worker-exploitation of all businesses. In a standard small-business model, the owner typically works loads of 'extra' hours - maybe 80 hours a week, because s/he's committed to the business and desperate not to let it fail. Meanwhile, the workers tend not to be so dedicated and work a normal week - say 40 hours. If they're lucky, the owner can convince some of the workers to work unpaid overtime 'just while the business gets established'.
In a co-op, most if not all of the workers tend to work unpaid overtime. So while they might be paying themselves 40 hours' wages (maybe even at a slightly higher rate than their 'single owner model' equivalents) they're all working 80 hours per week. As a result, hour-for-hour, they're only being paid a little more than half what other workers in the same industry are being paid. Co-ops are more likely to be running after 5 years than 'standard' businesses, but they manage it by getting the workforce to agree to terrible working conditions.
Now; go and check out Mondragon's 122 subsidiary companies in other countries, and tell me how many of them are 'co-operatives' and how many of them are traditional businesses where Mondragon as a corporation employs workers directly.
Critique of the Gotha Programme, Pt IV: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch04.htm
No War but the Class War
Destroy All Nations
Lucius Accius (170 BC - 86 BC): "A man whose life has been dishonorable is not entitled to escape disgrace in death."
Blake's Baby has just said precisely what I was going to say. Mondragon is a terrible example.
