Hong Kong union leaders arrested as police attack democracy occupation

[Sharia Lawn]

ckaihatsu, of course we shouldn't abstain from criticizing the Umbrella movement. We criticize its limitations within the context of supporting it against state repression and emphasizing the progressive nature of the struggle for the demands, as limited as those demands may be. You claim I am misrepresenting your position on the US bombing of IS. I am not. Your position is of a highly general and diffuse attitude of opposition to the US while staking a position of 'neutrality' about the specific campaign. How is anybody supposed to read that position and not immediately think of the betrayals of social democracy, who work hand-in-hand with the bourgeoisie under the similar guise of 'neutrality' against supposedly greater evils, while issuing similarly abstract and diffuse declarations of their support for socialism in the sweet by and by. Revolutionaries oppose capitalism and imperialism now in reality, not as a set of attitudes that will kick in at some point in the future under a different configuration of forces that will in reality never obtain.

[ckaihatsu]

ckaihatsu, of course we shouldn't abstain from criticizing the Umbrella movement. We criticize its limitations within the context of supporting it against state repression and emphasizing the progressive nature of the struggle for the demands, as limited as those demands may be.

Agreed.

You claim I am misrepresenting your position on the US bombing of IS. I am not. Your position is of a highly general and diffuse attitude of opposition to the US while staking a position of 'neutrality' about the specific campaign.

There is nothing 'diffuse' about this statement:

[I]t's good to have a *general* anti-U.S.-war line regarding Iraq and Syria, in the sense of not infringing on the national sovereignty of those countries, such as they are.

And, *of course* I'm neutral about inter-national -- such as the U.S. vs. the IS -- campaigns of mutual conflict, because the working class wouldn't benefit in the least from one or the other party emerging triumphant from any such rivalries.

How is anybody supposed to read that position and not immediately think of the betrayals of social democracy, who work hand-in-hand with the bourgeoisie under the similar guise of 'neutrality' against supposedly greater evils, while issuing similarly abstract and diffuse declarations of their support for socialism in the sweet by and by.

It's unclear what concrete political situation you're alluding to, and how that unspecified situation may conceivably relate to my position as just stated -- you're basically free-associating here.

Revolutionaries oppose capitalism and imperialism now in reality, not as a set of attitudes that will kick in at some point in the future under a different configuration of forces that will in reality never obtain.

Now you're implying that I'm vacillating and/or kicking-the-can-down-the-road, while not referencing any of my wording to corroborate your unfounded claims.