Problem of Tendency.

[ℂᵒиѕẗяᵤкт]

To RevLeft,

We're all familiar with the epidemic of intra-left bickering, and a crisis of theory is no small concern when it is a central question in the organization of the proletariat to destroy systemic oppression of working people.

However, I know I'm not the only one who's noticed that the left, in broad terms, is hamstrung by petty sectarianism based on "tendency." When we say "tendency," we tend to mean to what school of anti-capitalist thought someone adheres. People of the same tendency may have different ideas when approaching the same issue, but, generally, a tendency is a general label for adherence to a given tradition.

The problem we're facing, though, is that this label is being used by comrades as a shortcut around substantial political analysis. It's basically a way for leftists to tell who they ought to hate and who they ought to like. This is just as much a problem for me and my fellow "Stalinists" as it is for Trotskyites, syndicalists, anarchists, left communists, Third Wave Neo-Ceaușescist-Avakianists, etc. ad infinitum.

It has all the same potential benefit and serious thought put into it as hating someone who likes a sports team you don't like.

Being a "Stalinist" open about his interest in the Juche Idea, I've been on the receiving end of this many times over the past week alone, here. Back when I was a more orthodox "Stalinist" of the Hoxha-aligned school of "anti-revisionism," I did more than my fair share on the giving end of it, too. But my interest in doing so withered away when I got off Facebook (where my only "activism" was trolling libertarian pages and bickering with Maoists) and got involved in actual activism, particularly through the new S.D.S., the Jacksonville Progressive Coalition, and DreamDefenders.

The Gainesville and Tallahassee chapters of the S.D.S. organized a campaign of agitation and protest in favor of passing a tuition equity bill that allowed undocumented students to pay in-state tuition, as opposed to the out-of-state rate that is triple the in-state rate. I was part of the protest within the state capitol building that took place during the deliberation of the bill, a drop in a sea of progressive working people who came out to put the pressure on the politicians to make this concession. Despite the best efforts of the Democratic "supporters" of the bill to utterly gut the thing, it passed in the desired form.

Now, the S.D.S. people I know are pro-Stalin and sympathetic to north Korea. In fact, many of them are affiliated with the Freedom Road Socialist Organization (Fight Back!). Despite this "Stalinism," not one of them is in favor of establishing an autocracy or criminalizing homosexual relations or promoting nationalism. I found "Stalinism" to be very inclusive along all lines, although I need to admit people of non-binary gender and trans gender individuals were underrepresented.

Even so, the undocumented students who now have an improved chance at education, a chance to escape the vicious school-prison pipeline established to disfranchise them, never came up to me or any of my comrades and told us that we were "lowlife scum" or that our politics were "shit."

I've received both those sentiments, plus the imperative to die in a gutter, in an email of fewer than two sentences here, though.

My experience has been that the kind of "leftist" who engages in this childish practice begins and ends their political activism on the computer doing exactly that. Sure, they may "support" various struggles, but this tends to amount to little more than a verbal expression of allegiance rather than any substantive action. I once brought this up in response to a bizarre tirade insisting I had no political experience beyond the computer, and when I brought up my recent activism and asked him if he had any such experience, his crony told me I was being "ableist." Barring disabilities that hamper cognitive functioning or induce catatonia or something, people can still can make substantive contributions to projects about which they are passionate. Criticism of Stephen Hawking aside, I don't think anyone considers him incapable of work due to his paralysis.

My point is that, even if you can't stand north Korea and you feel your politics are diametrically opposed to "Stalinism," using a label as a shortcut to get right to coming down on a comrade for having "shitty politics" has no benefit to anyone -- not to the working class, not to your comrade, and not to you. I have asked this question of people critical of my Leninism and interest in Juche: how has Leninism/Juche hindered my politics in actual practice?

The only answers I've received have been non-sequiturs about "serving the interests of their tendency" or about how I must favor autocracy, how I must be homophobic, racist, etc. No examples of anything I've said or done demonstrating these have been forthcoming.

Let me reiterate that this is just as much a problem for my tendency or tendencies, as well. "Those Trotskyites like Trotsky! Why, they'll hamstring the dictatorship of the proletariat! Oh, damn those idealistic Luxemburgists and their ... idealism!" It's worth noting that this has never benefited anyone in any way even by accident.

Don't get me wrong. There's a place for criticism of the different schools of anti-capitalist thought, especially as regards the ultimate overthrow of our oppressors. But when you tell a comrade, who has been working with organizations helping workers and marginalized groups make actual, concrete gains in their struggle (however short-term), that he has "shitty politics" or that he is "lowlife scum," then what you're doing is telling him he belongs to the wrong team. And this is what I mean when I ask how my "Stalinism" has hindered my politics in practice; this sectarianism operates with utterly no knowledge of a person's actual record as a practicing progressive.

All "tendency" is now is a label, a combination of team colors we wear to let each other know who to like and who to dislike.

Frankly, there's a Trotskyite on this board whose posts I've thanked on a few occasions, because the fellow has a firm grasp on real-world issues like the bombing of Syria, the Hong Kong protests, etc. I may find his analysis of the Soviet Union off, but, really, when it comes to getting things done in the real world, we agree more than we diverge. I've found the same is true of a few anarcho-communists and the like.

It would be of no benefit to anyone to rule them out as allies in the anti-capitalist struggle for the reason that their "tendency" doesn't reflect the efficacy of their real-world activism.

Unfortunately, some of us, especially those of us whose "leftism" begins and ends on a forum, fail to see this and wish death on the people getting things done.

[Sasha]

A. Your the most whiny user I have seen here (and that says something)

B. You fail to understand that people like me don't think your a fellow leftist, a comrade, who we just happen to disagree with on some political details. You are an enemy, a class enemy, a reactionary not much better than a fascist. If not for your irrelevance you would be a target. Just as we are to those you say allign with.

[RedWorker]

He's just an attention/drama seeker and quite rude/annoying. Nothing new under the sun. Just the average tankie.

[consuming negativity]

>Frankly, there's a Trotskyite on this board whose posts I've thanked on a few occasions
>It would be of no benefit to anyone to rule them out as allies

Perhaps I'm wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure "Trotskyite" is not a term of endearment for, uh, allies...

[Creative Destruction]

is there some concentration of "Stalinists" in Florida or something? i knew another dude who considered himself the same and he was involved in the SDS down there, as well.

eta. did you happen to post on IIDB?

[RedWorker]

Honestly, I think Stalinists should just be restricted.

[Sinister Intents]

Hilarious tbh. I think tendency has its positive sides, labels don't have to be bad

Also too long I skimmed it

[Rurkel]

B. You fail to understand that people like me don't think your a fellow leftist, a comrade, who we just happen to disagree with on some political details. You are an enemy, a class enemy, a reactionary not much better than a fascist. If not for your irrelevance you would be a target. Just as we are to those you say allign with.

That's harsh, although I do think that apologizing for nasty historical things (much more for current things like Juche) reveals a lack of critical thinking.

[Zoroaster]

Honestly, I think Stalinists should just be restricted.

That's already been done before. And personally, although I do disagree with Marxist-Leninists, I don't think restricting them is a good idea.

[Q]

"Tendency labels" are important to signify political differences. And with you "being a 'Stalinist' open about his interest in the Juche Idea", you are threading territory that is much removed from communist politics. I happen to agree with Sasha in this case: Stalinism and its derivatives (Maoism, Juche, Hoxhaism, et al) are developments based on and are a result of the failure of the Russian revolution, a political framework that saw consolidation in the late 1920's.

As such, it is a political framework that is in actuality anti-communist and, as such, reactionary as Sasha put it, precisely because it was developed as the political justication of the counterrevolution in Russia.

I see you developing in one of two ways: Either you harden in your believes that is provided by the 'Marxist-Leninist' (sic) framework, or you take distance from it and develop in a more communist direction. There is no stable middle ground here that you're taking right now: You can't 'peacefully coexist' with the rest of the left in the long run as long as you're standing for the politics you're espousing right now. This becomes more of an issue if your group, tendency or even person grows influence (which is not the case today, as with much of the rest of the far left).

Honestly, I think Stalinists should just be restricted.

This creates other issues and these issues were a main reason for abandoning this policy many years back (it is also banned from being discussed as a policy measure by the founder of the site, so don't try to bring it up). The main reason is that not only it affects many leftists (see the list I already mentioned above), it is also having an impact on closely related political frameworks and here I'm mainly thinking about Trotskyists which, as a political framework, developed itself mainly in opposition to Stalinism, but still took quite a lot of the same foundation. This makes Trotskyists in some aspects difficult to differentiate from Stalinists.

If such a policy would be adopted, it would run the chance of 'creeping up' to include Trotskyists and maybe even other tendencies or you'd need to be very specific to exclude those tendencies that you're aiming for.

But again, this policy was abandoned and will not be discussed.

[ℂᵒиѕẗяᵤкт]

To Sasha,

You're a sad excuse for a moderator, and, ignoring for a moment the irony of considering me both irrelevant and a class enemy, you've expertly ignored every single point I made in the post, none the least of which was about active participation in working class struggle. If by some miracle I do become relevant to you, I have no worries about being your "target." As I said, your leftism begins and ends on the internet. If someone is your enemy because of a label alone, you're of no use to any progressive struggle.


To RedWorker,

Of the two of us, who is the one going into introductory threads just to put people down? You've made little contribution to any discussion you've been in, and that seems to be the opinion of quite a few people here.


To communer,

I apologize. I didn't realize "Trotskyite" was considered derogatory. I'm happy to use "Trotskyist" if that's a more welcome term.


To rednoise,

I don't know, to tell you the truth. I don't even know if many of them are "Stalinists" so much as very broad in their Marxist thinking. As for "IIDB," I don't know what that is.


To Sinistra,

I'm confused as to how you found something "hilarious" after having only skimmed it. I don't know if "TL;DR" is a demonstration of good faith.


To Rurkel,

We can discuss these "nasty" historical things, many of which I'm sure you find I'm unwilling to support. As for the "nastiness" of Juche, I'm also happy to have a discussion about that. I don't find your remark about a lack of critical thinking very comradely, but I'm given no reason to doubt that you're an intelligent person. Maybe we can come to an understanding if you're just willing to hear me out, perhaps elsewhere so as not to derail the thread.


To Socialisme,

I appreciate that. I haven't spoken with you much and, although I'm disturbed by your "thanks!" on the comment Sasha made, I don't have reason to suspect you regard me as an enemy, even if I don't doubt you find me misguided. If you're willing to assume good faith on my part and demonstrate good faith on yours, you will find that, in terms of concrete, material action that a progressive can be expected to take today, we probably agree on a lot more than we'd disagree on.

That was actually the point of my post, which makes it a shame some of these kids flat out refused to read it. Talking about a single-party socialist state, socialism in one country, etc., is all well and good theoretically, but how much of that is relevant to the activism any of us are now involved in? You can hate my "Stalinism," of course, but I doubt you hate the idea of supporting tuition equity or opposing discrimination in school or the workplace, right?

In other words, I could wear a button that says "Kim Il-sung rules!" but how much of my real-world actions reflect your understanding of Kim Il-sung's actions? Or Stalin's? I'm not putting anybody in a labor camp or having them executed; I'm protesting discrimination and trying to help with efforts to make education accessible to marginalized groups.

Call me "whiny," but the folks here who expressed greater interest in being petty than in figuring out a way to cooperate aren't my comrades.

[Sinister Intents]

@Toxin: I read enough to know that I'm pretty cool with labels and I don't hold people's tendencies against them. I already forgot what I read in because I'm in class and multitasking. It's still TL; DR and I'm with what Q said.

BTW I'm not a pan leftist but I'm very cool with people of non anarchist tendencies

[ℂᵒиѕẗяᵤкт]

To Q,

I'm dismayed that even you're choosing not to address the central point of my post. Again, you may find "Stalinism" reactionary, but your insistence that tendency is useful has you stumbling right past the fact that my real-world practice is progressive.

Again, you're all worried about the recreation of what you understand to be the world of Stalin, which is why your hostility is based wholly in a "someday" scenario that has no real chance of happening.

Let me ask you this: if I had never come here and identified with any particular school of thought, and we somehow knew each other only through real-world political activism, would you be able to identify my tendency through my actions? You can make that question much more general, too: are you able to identify tendency solely through real-world expressions of activism?

My point, which I'll reiterate only one last time, is that not one single person here can identify any substantive way in which my concrete, real-world actions hinder the struggle of the proletariat for freedom.

I'm a class enemy for no reason beyond that I don't back the right dead guy. Bring up theory all you like, but in a material sense, that's really all there is to it.

[ℂᵒиѕẗяᵤкт]

To Sinistra,

Then may I make the request that you at least consider the main point that I've reiterated? I feel like the responses so far have been off the mark of what I'm actually saying.

Funny thing is that I acknowledged this was a problem in my behavior toward fellow leftists, too, and that I'm open to friendship with people of non-Leninist tendencies (as well as Trotskyism, whose adherents identify as Leninists, too). I may not agree with the theoretical framework, but nobody whose actions reflect proletarian interests is my enemy.

[Q]

To Q,

I'm dismayed that even you're choosing not to address the central point of my post. Again, you may find "Stalinism" reactionary, but your insistence that tendency is useful has you stumbling right past the fact that my real-world practice is progressive.

Actually, I did respond to this point, although it may not have been clear enough: Based on your "real-world practice", as you put it, I see you developing in different, more crystallised ways. The point I was making was that you're not 'done' with your development. Two other possible outcomes I didn't discuss is that you could take your distance from 'tendencies' completely and just be vaguely communist/leftwing or, based again on your "real-world practice", you could move away from communist politics completely and become, for example, a typical trade unionist.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Stalinists and DPRK supporters come and go on this site pretty frequently. For whatever reason people who want to wear those titles here always seem to eventually get around to making racist or homophobic comments, and recently they've had trouble stopping themselves from justifying the mass rape that took place in Europe during ww2. So based on past experience, you'll likely get yourself banned or you'll change your ideas and drone on about it for a few weeks. Also this is just a pretty hostile community in general for some reason.

I would relax and not worry about it tbh, this forum has no effect on the real world.

[ℂᵒиѕẗяᵤкт]

To Q,

I apologize, then, for not being careful enough in my reading of you. I still disagree with your predictions, as they strike me as condescending. I do agree, though, that I am not done with my development. Had I joined maybe a year ago, I'd be more of the "Espresso Stalinist" variety of "Hoxhaist." You may be right in your predictions, but, again, I am not your enemy. I'm very, very unlikely to support a reading of Stalin or something that would prove hostile to a real-world attempt on your part to organize working class action.

We'll just have to see.


To Ethics Gradient,

Actually, I know what you mean. I've done a bit of lurking and seen what you're talking about. What especially disturbs me is a weird pattern of Soviet fetishism that leads some posters to actually attempting to justify the mass Soviet rape of German women. Denying it would be atrocious, but attempting to justify it is above and beyond atrocious.

You might have seen me in a recent thread about the subject, actually. I was skeptical of a quote attributed to Stalin that made it seem like he was okay with the rape. Where I failed was in attacking the quote rather than criticising the Stalin government for not having taken effective action against the rape.

You're right, though, about this place being hostile. I take some comfort in your reassurance that some twerps on the internet matter little in the grand scheme of things. I can assure you that I will not make any such comments as other "Stalinists" have, and I am open to criticism and self-criticism if I do unconsciously display such chauvinistic attitudes.

[Art Vandelay]

You're right, though, about this place being hostile. I take some comfort in your reassurance that some twerps on the internet matter little in the grand scheme of things.

Look, I can't say I agree with your politics, or even with much of what you posted in this thread, but you'd do good to remember the part of your post I quoted above. This site is meaningless, as is your attempt to start some pro-left unity discussion. Who cares what folks think of your politics and what terms they might hurl at you. Sounds like you've found some folks in your area that you feel you are doing some good organizing with; good for you, focus on that. Most posters on here haven't done shit when it comes to actual political work and, in my opinion, have no idea what the hell they are talking about. My point is don't worry about it. Just keep reading (from a lot of different perspectives) and I wish you well on your political development.

P.s. when I first read through this thread, right after it was posted, one of the individuals who is now chastizing you, had thanked your op. I don't know, kind of found that funny.

[RedWorker]

Most posters on here haven't done shit when it comes to actual political work and, in my opinion, have no idea what the hell they are talking about.

The classic "well you're talking shit behind a screen face me irl m8" line.

[Art Vandelay]

The classic "well you're talking shit behind a screen face me irl m8" line.

Heh. Nah, not at all really. More just a general observation. Hell I've been involved with an organization for about 2 years and don't consider the revolution any closer. My point was to not take this site too seriously, but feel free to interpret my post however you like. Cheers.