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Why are we comparing this anyway? Can such a comparison teach us anything about communism? I do not think so.
☭ “The ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas, i.e. the class which is the ruling material force of society, is at the same time its ruling intellectual force.” - Karl Marx ☭
It's one of those weird attempts to gain moral high ground. Real communists are willing to accept the moral low ground to accomplish our ends. If we end up killing more people than capitalism to achieve socialism, so be it. More will flourish because of it.
There really isn't any moral high or low ground with regards to rape though. To what ends does rape help achieve socialism?
Fashionable avatar in solidarity with Five Year Plan.
The moral high ground here is being less rapey than your enemy. Nobody said anything about rape being a revolutionary mean.
No but you said:
"Real communists are willing to accept the moral low ground to accomplish our ends."
then you said:
"The moral high ground here is being less rapey than your enemy."
Here's a sentence for you to remember: Real communists don't rape. Real communists think that rape is unacceptable.
Real communists don't throw out the baby with the bath water. It's a tragedy that rapes happened, the USSR could have even been the worse rapist, and still would be progressive over her enemies.
But hey don't let me get in the way of you trying to pigeon-hole me as a rape advocate.
Some rape is better than some other rape?
The Russians raped hundreds of thousands,if not millions,of German women in the closing stages(and post) of WWII.
Any rape is fucking WRONG! No matter what thralls of whatever political system committed them!
How do you figure that a country that has decided that half the working class are worthless objects and no more than fleshy vessels to be enjoyed at the leisure of men is progressive?
No one's asking you to cast down your gods, you just have to admit it's pretty fucked up. You say you aren't a rape apologist but your refusal to do no more than vaguely imply that it might have been a bad thing that the Red Army perpetrated mass rape is making you look like one.
Don't try to reason with Dagoth. They're stuck in the loving embrace of Mother Russia.
The intention is, as always, to portray the mostly Slavic and Asiatic Soviet forces as subhuman rapists in need of some though-love democracy courtesy of the Allies, who of course never raped, never. That is why the rape committed by the Allies is ignored or downplayed, that is why the number of rapes committed by the Red Army is estimated by a process that would be laughed our of a debate on any other event, and so on.
And don't think you're "defending women", you knights in State Department-issue armour. In fact you're the ones using the rape of women as a cheap political ploy.
Again this strawman where I'm supposedly calling the rapes themselves progressive. This was a flowery strawman though.
I literally called the rapes a tragedy.
A tragedy that happened to be committed by the only progressive force on the field. Would the world have been better without this tragedy? Of course but the world would have been better had the nazis never existed at all. As far as I'm concerned the all fault for all the rapes and violence unleashed during World War Two can be placed squarely on the Nazis, regardless of perpetrator.
I threw up a bit in my mouth when I read this.
Also, to put it in perspective, this is coming from a trot who would of supported unconditional military defence of the USSR in WWII. That comment is just down right vile though.
How is it vile? The nazis caused the entire conflict. All crimes committed within that conflict were only able to happen because of the chaos unleashed by the Nazis. This doesn't absolve the individuals of course.
The unconscious liberalism on revleft never ceases to amaze me.
To what extent do you think the German people were responsible for the conflict Dagoth Ur?
Man is but a goat in the hands of butchers
You're not a Marxist. Whether or not you view the USSR as 'socialist,' a degenerated workers state, or 'state-capitalist,' Marxists understand that the second world war was an inter-imperialist conflict (minus the USSR depending on you're characterization of it), caused by the necessities of global capital. Make vague accusations of liberalism all you like, your posts are here for anyone to see and they more than speak for themselves.
Last edited by Art Vandelay; 27th September 2014 at 16:08.
Rape has been and is still used as an absolutely disgusting, horrifying warfare to dehumanize and humiliate the weakest of the weak, knowing that those women were often not able to take on any form of normal life again. Ever. Especially when they were from highly partriachal cultures, it could mean that their husbands would leave them, cause they were shamed by the enemy. That happend in Ruanda many, many times. Sometimes, these women got pregnant and aborted illegaly, often enough killing themselves doing this. Or they got the child and disconnected heavily after birth. How could this ever be justified, no matter which side did it? Why are women so popular targets in war? I mean, it kinda reflects society. If you wanna piss off a guy severely, "contamine" his woman. The only one responsible for rape is the one committing it. I'd never ever find any excuses for the Nazis, but in how far were they military harmed when the Sowjets and/or the Allies raped women? What does it have to do with the Nazis? Stop this bullshit, I almost puked in my mouth.
Liberal Dudes are guys who will jump up and down to tell you that they’re all about equality and prosperity for everyone, but then tell you about the strip club they were at the night before or about the awesome anal porn site they last jerked off to. Liberal Dudes are ready to welcome us into the boardroom, provided we’re still willing to dance on the conference table at the employee party. Liberal Dudes love “sex-positive” “feminists” because Liberal Dudes support women’s freedom and “rights,” up to and including our “right” to strip and to suck dicks for money. Liberal Dudes love to see women embracing pornorific behavior like pole dancing, pube waxing, porn watching, thong wearing, chick kissing, and boob flashing as a means to “empowerment,” because that’s exactly the kind of power they want us to have: the power to give them boners.
So you dont unconditionally call for the defeat of imperialism? (Not addressing the rapeblbissue, I agree with everybody about that).
For student organizing in california, join this group!
http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=1036
http://socialistorganizer.org/
"[I]t’s hard to keep potent historical truths bottled up forever. New data repositories are uncovered. New, less ideological, generations of historians grow up. In the late 1980s and before, Ann Druyan and I would routinely smuggle copies of Trotsky’s History of the Russian Revolution into the USSR—so our colleagues could know a little about their own political beginnings.”
--Carl Sagan
What are you talking about? You quoted me saying I support the unconditional military defence of the USSR in WWII.
Last edited by Art Vandelay; 27th September 2014 at 17:34.
You're an apologist for rapists.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
- Hanlon's Razor
I'm not the knuckle-head that jumped into a thread about the rape of Germans by soviet soldiers during WW2 and said something as provocative as "communists are willing to accept the moral low ground to accomplish our ends."
Yeah, because the context in which you've said that isn't going to make you look like an apologist and it's definitely not going to send alarm bells ringing.
Jesus, Mary and Joseph Stalin! I hope you don't apply this kind of twisted logic in other areas of your life.
"Al-Qaeda kicked off the war on terrorism so everything committed within that conflict is their fault. This doesn't absolve the individuals of course, but let's remember that it was Al-Qaeda's fault that people were tortured by American soldiers at Abu Ghraib."
"You started this conflict, you pissed me off by not washing the dishes, so everything that happened in this argument is your fault. This doesn't absolve the individuals of course, but let's remember that it's your fault that I punched you because you pissed me off by not washing the dishes."
Oh look, I just used your logic to defend American imperialism, torture and domestic abuse. If we're unconscious liberals, you're an unconscious reactionary.
