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Catalan independence
Only about 4 months left for the referendum about whether Catalonia should become independent from Spain. What are your thoughts on this issue?
I don't see independence as being helpful for the working class. But, having been involved with similar discussions about Scottish independence, I don't see the referendum as being a class issue at all. Whichever way it goes, capitalism still wins. Spanish state or new Catalan state probably doesn't make any significant difference.
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That this issue is pretty irrelevant. If there were circumstances of Spanish revolution of the 30s, independence from the rest of Spain maybe would be significant. But now existence of even such capitalist state isn't possible. Spanish authorities will react military to suppress such independence.
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I reckon I'd support Catalonia having independence if they wanted it because just like anyone they should have autonomy. I, however, take much more interest in Basque independence and have had sympathies for ETA.
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Yes? What is more interesting about that? This is only nationalist aspirations.
... an organization which merely kills random people, while claiming to be fighting for "independence" and "socialism".
They may have fought against Franco's dictatorship and that's about it. Any social support they may have had here collapsed when it became clear they were just a nationalist organization which performed arbitrary acts of violence along with random mentions of "socialism" without any real ideology.
I'd presume that this is because reactionary nationalist nonsense is just more romantic when it comes packaged with guns.
Devrim
Of course it is a class issue, for the exact reasons you state. It is a reactionary dividing up of our class along nationalist lines.
But you're right to say that capitalism will win regardless. While I'm more on the stance of a no campaign (are there any leftwing no campaigns in Catalonia?), I can also understand and could gather behind a boycott position, if that is a thing at all here.
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What I really want to happen in Catalonia is the thing that happened there in 1936.
Other than that, I'm just as torn as I am about Scottish independence. I always support less centralised government, but this isn't an independence movement for decentralisation, it's a nationalism-fest.
No, all existing known campaigns against independence are ran by people who are very reactionary and often associated with far-right ideologies.
Last edited by RedWorker; 30th July 2014 at 00:07.
Ok it's not a class issue in that neither way is in the interests of the working class, buuutttt it is a class issue in that the Scottish referendum is likely to be divided on class terms. As far as I can tell the yes vote will be entrenched in the working class and the no vote in the middle class. I do think this is an important point to realise, especially for the English left.
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I don't think it is the case that this campaign for independence doesn't produce any effect. I take it as obvious that the Catalan bourgeoisie sees real potential for forwarding their own interests in this, and of course the campaign I mentioned is aimed at getting the working class on board. As such, it might not be of far reaching consequences, but I don't think anyone ought to underestimate the short term significance of nationalism in all of this.
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Oh, I quite agree that the whole (set of) campaign(s) - for a yes vote or a no vote, in the case of Catalonia/Spain and Scotland UK - will fuel competing claims of nationalism, and these will be primarily be directed at the working class. What I meant was the class itself has no interest to be served by either a yes vote or a no vote. Whichever way either of the votes go, nationalism is the winner (unless there is a massive dissinterest in the votes and only a tiny amount actually vote, that might demonstrate that the working class has rejected the false choices).
Unless that hap[pens, I agree that the whole scenario is an attack on the consciousness of the working class.
Critique of the Gotha Programme, Pt IV: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch04.htm
No War but the Class War
Destroy All Nations
Lucius Accius (170 BC - 86 BC): "A man whose life has been dishonorable is not entitled to escape disgrace in death."
How does keeping people under a capitalist country they don't want to be a part of, promote internationalism? Arguing for a united Spain could just as easily be consider Spanish nationalism. The bourgeois boarders divide the proletariat. But what if the division already there, and a vote just makes it official? Won't it also divide the bourgeoisie to an extent? At worse I think it'd just be tangent to the greater class struggle.
To who are you replying, since no one is making the argument that a no vote, in and of itself, is strengthening internationalist values?
I think, thus I disagree. | Chairperson of a Socialist Party branchMarxist Internet Archive | Communistisch Platform
Working class independence - Internationalism - Democracy
Educate - Agitate - Organise
You should answer Q's question.
But while I'm at it, I'm not advocating any particular answer to this referendum. I'm concisely arguing that the project of Catalan independence is also and at the same time a project of pacifying the working class in a particular way; not only in Catalonia, but in Spain as well. The most important mechanism here is nationalism.
FKA LinksRadikal
“The possibility of securing for every member of society, by means of socialized production, an existence not only fully sufficient materially, and becoming day by day more full, but an existence guaranteeing to all the free development and exercise of their physical and mental faculties – this possibility is now for the first time here, but it is here.” Friedrich Engels
"The proletariat is its struggle; and its struggles have to this day not led it beyond class society, but deeper into it." Friends of the Classless Society
"Your life is survived by your deeds" - Steve von Till
my admittedly superficial understanding is that the nationalist movement in catalonia is largely led by neoliberal bourgeois swine, or am i mistaken? as far as mainstream establishment politics are concerned, independence would yield a shift to the right. so no.
Oh, sorry I was being a little lazy. It was a counterpoint to Blake's Baby's post that this vote in of itself is detrimental to working class consciousness, but it was also kind of a point to raise in general. Although re-reading this thread I could have written it better. I see the validity in argument that the vote is a diversion. But I was pointing out what might be good. I mean with the right-wing government in power, the monarchy and such high unemployment, I could understand why someone might just want to do something. At the same time if it results in a reactionary chauvinist state worse than it's current form that I'd oppose it.
Elizabeth R is Queen of Scotland more directly than Queen of England (her descent from the House of Stuart is more recent than her descent from the House of Tudor).
Salmond has said that an independent Scotland would be in the EU, in NATO, and would retain the monarchy (it is after all Scotland's monarchy, as I just pointed out). Can't see much there to get excited about.
On the other hand, people might vote yes with the belief that an independent Scotland could spend more on social welfare, for example.
But, I think that either way the vote goes, working class unity is going to suffer. The best result would be a massive lack of interest in the question.
Critique of the Gotha Programme, Pt IV: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch04.htm
No War but the Class War
Destroy All Nations
Lucius Accius (170 BC - 86 BC): "A man whose life has been dishonorable is not entitled to escape disgrace in death."
I have the right to vote on Catalonia's independence and believe I will be voting no. Only two months left. I don't see an advantage to abstaining.
Any more arguments?
Do you think Greater Spanish nationalism is better than Catalan nationalism?
Do you see an advantage to the working class in the union?
If so, maybe you could explain why you think that. All we know so far is you don't like ETA.
Critique of the Gotha Programme, Pt IV: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch04.htm
No War but the Class War
Destroy All Nations
Lucius Accius (170 BC - 86 BC): "A man whose life has been dishonorable is not entitled to escape disgrace in death."
