Today I Just Learned that Communism and Anarchism are Pointless Dreams

[JudasMaiden]

As you know, I used to be an anarchist-communist, but the last time since I posted on here, I learned communism and anarchism are just impossible attempts that will only result in deluded people ruining everything for the workers, funny enough with the fact that they always claim to care about them "suffering" under capitalism, since I've been going to non-indoctrinated forums.

All your "theories" are problematic, like the communist "Dictatorship of the Proletariat". The theory that any government whatsoever could abolish all it's power, NO ONE has even heard of a government giving up their authority and abolishing the state BECAUSE it's not part of human nature to, AS WHAT HAS BEEN PROVEN UNDER WHAT HAPPENED UNDER THE SOVIET UNION, CUBA, CAMBODIA, NORTH KOREA, CHINA, POLAND, YUGOSLAVIA, ETC ETC ETC ETC.

Another problematic feature of human nature that both of you communists and anarchists ignore is people being too lazy to work. What do your communist, Marxist, anarchist, "left communists" or "Hoxhaists" like what do those even mean to people who don't have an obsession with obscure "theoritical errors" in failed projects that are the errors themselves, whatever you want to call them, ist-theorists even do when they are confronted with that fact? Hope that us non-communist people would forget about their flawed-from-the-ground plans that would only result in disaster? Even past the "transition" or "socialism stage", what would keep ALL people "happily working for the betterment of mankind" as I have heard from communists so many times? The people in many Marxist countries couldn't do it even with force and torture and terror in many cases! And even if some of you respond like "We don't force labor people" then WHAT is stopping a majority of people to not work at all? How is it any encouraging that lazy people benefit from the non lazy people's labor?

The countless nations that I have listed couldn't even achieve communism for one second. The thing that I notice from many communists and anarchists is their annoying usage of terms like "ruling class" to the so-evil "bourgeoisie" when they can't even deal with the fact that they were the LITERAL ruling class too, and that THEY FAILED BIG, only to do worse than the capitalism that preceded them, and they were even more powerful than the corporations!

Leftism in practice, theory, whatever you want to say, it just has never been possible, at all, so how do you people still praise any movement that you think will lead to your own utopia with the faults that are painfully obvious to countless workers who have lived under nations with this utopia in agenda? HOW?

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

With all due respect, the only thing that your post demonstrates is that you never really understood what communism is, starting with the crucial error of thinking that the withering away of the state is a matter of "the government" (in abstract of course) "voluntarily" "giving up their authority". It isn't. The state withers away as its functions cease to be necessary due to the change in the relations of production.

And seriously, human nature? Wow. Human nature is a nonsensical phrase that has been used as a quasi-scientific excuse for everything from slavery to homophobia. It's guff of the worst sort. Likewise the old "BUT IF WE DON'T STARVE PEOPLE WHY WOULD THEY WORK????" nonsense. Well, why wouldn't they? You need to do something between being born and croaking.

Oh, and once again, with feeling: communists don't oppose "corporations", communists oppose all forms of private property, from Northrop-Grumman to your local deli.

[Tim Cornelis]

Why are you so angry with us? We didn't force you to, in your eyes, waste your time on these politics. Honestly, given the posts and threads you made I don't find it surprising that you abandoned these politics.

As you know, I used to be an anarchist-communist, but the last time since I posted on here, I learned communism and anarchism are just impossible attempts that will only result in deluded people ruining everything for the workers, funny enough with the fact that they always claim to care about them "suffering" under capitalism, since I've been going to non-indoctrinated forums.

Most here have come through self-education which is inherently incompatible with indoctrination.

All your "theories" are problematic, like the communist "Dictatorship of the Proletariat". The theory that any government whatsoever could abolish all it's [sic!] power, NO ONE has even heard of a government giving up their authority and abolishing the state BECAUSE it's not part of human nature to, AS WHAT HAS BEEN PROVEN UNDER WHAT HAPPENED UNDER THE SOVIET UNION, CUBA, CAMBODIA, NORTH KOREA, CHINA, POLAND, YUGOSLAVIA, ETC ETC ETC ETC.

As 870 said, it's not a matter of a government voluntarily giving up power and handing it to the people. It works more like this: According to Marxism, contradictions within capitalism produce class antagonisms between the working class and capitalist class which will result in a revolutionary situation wherein the working class forms organs of workers' power -- such as workers' councils, workers' associations, committees, communes -- to try and conquer political power. These organs, part of a revolutionary body -- the workers' state -- is organised from below with power in the lowest organs, and mandated, recallable, rotating workers' deputies in higher organs executing decisions, whom are binding on all organs by virtue of the lower organs accepting the decisions of the higher organs. The revolutionary state is a temporary one where councils and the like will wield political power, and workers' associations will assume control of production. Socialised production under private property is transformed into social ownership. The state will use violence, pressure, and coercion where necessary to consolidate power and carry the revolution to victory. This violence is directed at the reaction, those using violence to restore property rights and the bourgeois class to the position of ruling class. As the social revolution progresses the reaction is beaten and defeated, and the process of socialisation is completed, revolutionary violence is obsolete and will necessarily disappear -- it's not a matter of giving up power, it's matter of it becoming obsolete. What remains of the workers' state -- the workers' state stripped of its coercive functions -- is the associations of producers and social ownership. In other words, the result is the free association of equal producers and consumers administrating commonly owned productive resources: communism.

None of the countries you named were workers' governments or states. They were all states controlled from above and administrated capital through state ownership.

Another problematic feature of human nature that both of you communists and anarchists ignore is people being too lazy to work. What do your communist, Marxist, anarchist, "left communists" or "Hoxhaists" like what do those even mean to people who don't have an obsession with obscure "theoritical errors" in failed projects that are the errors themselves, whatever you want to call them, ist-theorists even do when they are confronted with that fact? Hope that us non-communist people would forget about their flawed-from-the-ground plans that would only result in disaster? Even past the "transition" or "socialism stage", what would keep ALL people "happily working for the betterment of mankind" as I have heard from communists so many times? The people in many Marxist countries couldn't do it even with force and torture and terror in many cases! And even if some of you respond like "We don't force labor people" then WHAT is stopping a majority of people to not work at all? How is it any encouraging that lazy people benefit from the non lazy people's labor?

If it turns out that people are too lazy to labour, labour notes/credits can be used as external incentive for productive activity. As for "happily working for the betterment of mankind", I don't believe that people will do that. This was part of a Stalinist New Man type project, which failed of course given its voluntaristic nature. People will work because they enjoy it or because they receive labour credits for it.

"What do your communist, Marxist, anarchist, "left communists" or "Hoxhaists" like what do those even mean to people who don't have an obsession with obscure "theoritical errors" in failed projects that are the errors themselves, whatever you want to call them, ist-theorists even do when they are confronted with that fact?"

They don't mean anything to ordinary people, and therefore all these tendencies would generally identify as simply socialists or communists in public debate.

The countless nations that I have listed couldn't even achieve communism for one second. The thing that I notice from many communists and anarchists is their annoying usage of terms like "ruling class" to the so-evil "bourgeoisie" when they can't even deal with the fact that they were the LITERAL ruling class too, and that THEY FAILED BIG, only to do worse than the capitalism that preceded them, and they were even more powerful than the corporations!

So why is it you blame anarchism for Stalinism? Seems odd.

Leftism in practice, theory, whatever you want to say, it just has never been possible, at all, so how do you people still praise any movement that you think will lead to your own utopia with the faults that are painfully obvious to countless workers who have lived under nations with this utopia in agenda? HOW?

Again, why do you blame anarchism or non-Stalinist politics for Stalinism?

[Zoroaster]

Another problematic feature of human nature that both of you communists and anarchists ignore is people being too lazy to work. What do your communist, Marxist, anarchist, "left communists" or "Hoxhaists" like what do those even mean to people who don't have an obsession with obscure "theoritical errors" in failed projects that are the errors themselves, whatever you want to call them, ist-theorists even do when they are confronted with that fact? Hope that us non-communist people would forget about their flawed-from-the-ground plans that would only result in disaster? Even past the "transition" or "socialism stage", what would keep ALL people "happily working for the betterment of mankind" as I have heard from communists so many times? The people in many Marxist countries couldn't do it even with force and torture and terror in many cases! And even if some of you respond like "We don't force labor people" then WHAT is stopping a majority of people to not work at all? How is it any encouraging that lazy people benefit from the non lazy people's labor?

First off, people aren't only motivated by money. It is an artificial concept created by modern society. If we were only motivated by money, then cavemen would have never been able to survive. Humans are mainly motivated to work by two concepts: The need to survive, and the desire to live. In a fully developed communist society, and even in the phase with the dictatorship of the proletariat, wage labour would be replaced with free work. For more on that, read Paul Lafargue's "The Right to be Lazy".

Secondly, countries like North Korea, the USSR, China and other places aren't Marxist, but rather, state capitalist. They've botched historical materialism and replaced with some damned "Great Men of History" theory, business's are still organized like a capitalist one (and let's not forget how these countries use stock markets and trade with capitalist nations, like the Lend-Lease deal during WW2), and a new minority replaced the capitalist class. The only Marxist country was the Paris Commune, and that wasn't even run by Marxists.

And finally, what is with your obsession with lazy people? If a man or woman doesn't want to work, then so-fucking be it! You sound like Bill O 'Reilly for Christ's sake!

[Loony Le Fist]

[a load of neoliberal horse shit assertions]

What are your politics now, then?

You know your shits gone cray when I find myself agreeing with Vincent and Tim dude. No offense, guys.

[helot]

Another problematic feature of human nature that both of you communists and anarchists ignore is people being too lazy to work.

That's just victim blaming. As someone who's unemployed that is what's said about me! I am too lazy, i'm work-shy apparently. Somehow that doesn't explain why it is i still produce use-values even though i dont have a wage. I'm just too lazy, that's why the other day i stole a bunch of wood from a skip and built a table for my mate's garden. Yup, i'm just too lazy to work, that's why i don't have a job. It has nothing to do with the destruction of industry in my city, nothing to do with the massive amount of applicants for each vacancy, nope just laziness.

[Strannik]

"Dictatorship of the proletariat" is not like a current republic - as self-sufficient autonomous system. Autonomous organs of communism are naturally the communes. Socialist state is like a congress where communes establish their common policies towards organizations not having internal communal relationships or communal relationships with others. These policies, when successful, will result in decrease of lower forms of organization and forming of new communes. This is the true aim of all "transitional programs", not establishment of some "new and better state of things". But as lower forms of organization disappear, as communal way of living becomes the standard, the dictatorship will have less and less to do. The less represantatives of the old order there are, the less need is there to form common policies towards them. Everything a society does will be done through direct, communal relationships between commune members and communes. And this is the "withering away of the state" - who wants to work in an organization that has nothing to do? Working for state becomes like being a guardian of city gates of a modern city; a rather pointless way to spend your time.

As for "lazy" argument - I think that there is no reason why a commune needs to accept lazy, exploitative people as their members (unless communars really believe that they can make the person into a communar). I believe that Marx' "industrial armies" (corporations) and labour credit systems are meant precisely for these lazy people whom no commune would want as their members.

[Patrice O'neal]

I think you learned something about Leninism.

And I agree with you, the left is soft on lazy people and all kinds of stuff that regular working joes are not. But under communism, under a federation of autonomous areas, anyone refusing to do work they are capable of yet wanting to take from the communal production of goods will face some swift communal justice.

Same with how a community under communism will be capable of dealing will all kinds of harmfull and fucked up behaviour that is dangerous to the safety of the common good. We don't need peoples labour being turned into surplus value or the state to end laziness or deal with pedophiles for example once capitalism and the state ends.

We don't lose all ability to govern ourselves and remove parasitic elements from our group with democratic action.

I think someone mooching off the larger group while contributing nothing will soon find himself with an ultimatum from the larger group, do some work or go plant beans somewhere and pray for the best. Remember there would be no need for unemployment under a workers controlled economic system which is not based on a monetary system. What marx called the Anarchy of production will be removed. Making something will not rest on whether or not it is financially viable, but whether it is usefull and is of want by the people in the community.

[Tenka]

JudasMaiden:

impossible attempts that will only result in deluded people ruining everything for the workers,

I stopped reading a little ahead of this, at "human nature", but I just wanted to say: if this is the main reason for you thinking it all hopeless, you really don't have a clue where to look. The two first replies to your post are the best possible direct replies and you should read, and perhaps re-read, them.

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

When you said "impossible attempts", I thought you were on to something and that you were criticising the disguised utopianism that can be seen on this forum.

Turned out you were repeating strawmen.

[Loony Le Fist]

Today I just learned that JudasMaiden took their first hit of crack. Lay off it. Please.

[Sinister Intents]

Congratulations on enlightening us that everything we've so dearly studied is wrong and pointless! *gasp* human nature proves it all wrong! I mean of course we're all gonna sit on our asses without motivation and then eventually die. Of course we just wanna redistribute wealth and create a brutal authoritarian state where we worship long dead idols: Lenin <3

JM you've a ton of reading to do so don't give up and don't let others control your decisions and ideas. Be your own person and question everything! I questioned communism and anarchism before and came right back. Go ahead and explore other views while your young.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

I think you learned something about Leninism.

And I agree with you, the left is soft on lazy people and all kinds of stuff that regular working joes are not. But under communism, under a federation of autonomous areas, anyone refusing to do work they are capable of yet wanting to take from the communal production of goods will face some swift communal justice.

Same with how a community under communism will be capable of dealing will all kinds of harmfull and fucked up behaviour that is dangerous to the safety of the common good. We don't need peoples labour being turned into surplus value or the state to end laziness or deal with pedophiles for example once capitalism and the state ends.

We don't lose all ability to govern ourselves and remove parasitic elements from our group with democratic action.

I think someone mooching off the larger group while contributing nothing will soon find himself with an ultimatum from the larger group, do some work or go plant beans somewhere and pray for the best. Remember there would be no need for unemployment under a workers controlled economic system which is not based on a monetary system. What marx called the Anarchy of production will be removed. Making something will not rest on whether or not it is financially viable, but whether it is usefull and is of want by the people in the community.

Seriously, fucking piss off you worthless fucking degenerate swine. Get the fuck out of here and don't fucking come back. I don't know where the fuck you came from, but fuck off, you Israel-loving fuckwit. Seriously, you fucking parasitic vermin.

[Tim Cornelis]

Seriously, fucking piss off you worthless fucking degenerate swine. Get the fuck out of here and don't fucking come back. I don't know where the fuck you came from, but fuck off, you Israel-loving fuckwit. Seriously, you fucking parasitic vermin.

>Moderator

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

>Moderator

Yeah, that's a real useful post as well you liberal Tulipman. Want an infraction? No, I'm not that sort of arsehole.

[Fakeblock]

You've been a communist/anarchist at least since November 2013 and today is the first time you even considered the human nature argument and the "but it failed in Russia" argument? Were you living in a bubble until you discovered your non-indoctrinated forums?

[Delusional Kid]

You lost me at "human nature"...
Are you sure you weren't an ancap in disguise this whole time?

[Patrice O'neal]

Seriously, fucking piss off you worthless fucking degenerate swine. Get the fuck out of here and don't fucking come back. I don't know where the fuck you came from, but fuck off, you Israel-loving fuckwit. Seriously, you fucking parasitic vermin.

I bet you have a blossoming social life. No doubt if you had to articulate your points in public you would become a bumbling anxious nervous wreck. But on the internet you are really brave and outspoken.

I just think you are really cool. Keep up the great work.

[Loony Le Fist]

Ah! Do you feel that love everyone?

[Jimmie Higgins]

Forgive me, but I'm a bit suspicious of anyone who's grown up in the u.s., becomes attracted to communist politics and then suddenly "learns" all these arguments on "Un-indoctrinated" forums. These dull arguments are spoon-fed to everyone in the u.s. (And you live in Arizona, no less!) from a young age. Unless revleft is the first website you ever used, you've never been to a public school, never turned on a tv or read a newspaper, there's no way that you suddenly discovered "communism=Stalinism" and that capitalism is the best of all possible worlds.

Next week: "hey guys, I just discovered this wonderful new drink called Coke... It comes in diet flavor too!"