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Our cop apologists manage to ignore 100% of the empirical evidence indicating that whenever the workers act in their class interest, the police perform a very specific role in effecting the interest of the bourgeois class enemy.
They point to individual, or more frequently hypothetical-counterfactual individual, examples of cops who might hold some beliefs that complicate their "jobs" or might be paid less than a certain level or might not meet a certain arbitrary standard of elitism (training, education, selection, etc.)
But aside from all this, it is necessary to understand society under the rule of a particular class as a system with its own laws of motion that are not immediately apparent on the basis of the beliefs or actions of its individual members. Our cop apologists fail to do this. Also, many who oppose our cop apologists fail to do this.
What is class? One's opinions do not constitute one's social class. Most workers would be capitalists if this were the case, but nevertheless workers (not cops) can only survive by selling their labor power and thereby augmenting capital.
Is this the policeman's relation to the means of production? No, he is not a part of capital that the capitalist buys and incorporates into his products, like labor, raw materials, machinery, buildings, etc. His function is entirely unrelated to the production of commodities. He can "work" his ass off all day killing black kids, beating strikers, framing up leftists, lying in court, etc. and no capital, no commodities are produced by his efforts! Whether he is highly trained and paid "elite" cop or a minimum wage rent-a-cop security guard makes no difference in this regard. Neither does how he feels about himself and his role in society.
A worker is like a tool or a raw material that the capitalist buys and incorporates into his product, with the special difference that the worker adds more value to the product than his price represents. A cop is like a whip, or a shotgun, a lock on the door or an attack dog. The capitalist buys him for an entirely different purpose. He is part of a different class that depends for its existence on the continuation of class society, whereas the future of the working class is either socialism (a classless society) or descent into barbarism.
Wrong. Without revolutionary theory there can be no revolutionary movement.
Yes, I agree. But how does this relate to the text you quoted?
Segui il tuo corso e lascia dir le genti.
Socialism resides entirely in the revolutionary negation of the capitalist ENTERPRISE, not in granting the enterprise to the factory workers.
- Bordiga
Your theory is wrong. Cops are not part of the proletariat. Your theory, while more empirically justifiable, is on the same impressionistic level as that of the cop-apologists.
Yes. Whenever we study the matter of the "organized corps of armed men" we need to look at their class background first. Special Forces will never join a Revolution, but the Bolsheviks agitated within the army because most of the soldiers fighting in the trenches were poor peasants and workers recruited off from their homes.
Also, regarding street gangs: the drug business as a whole is a product of capitalism, but gangs can work as a basic template for organizing the urban youth. We should strive to co-opt the unfortunate by-products of our system.
“Despair is typical of those who do not understand the causes of evil, see no way out, and are incapable of struggle.”
― Vladimir Illich Lenin, leader of the proletariat.
Just to expand, while we oppose the reactionary members of the proletariat politically, we support them in their economic struggle. When a Catholic worker wishes to restrict abortion, we oppose him. When he strikes for a higher wage, we support him, even if he is a right bastard.
Not so with cops. Calling the cops workers is bad enough - it's equivalent to putting on the noose around our own necks - but supporting cop unions is worse. In this analogy, it would be the same as putting the noose around our necks and then taking a flying leap.
Those soldiers had also been conscripted to fight a war that was against their interests in every sense of the word. They can't be compared to volunteers like special forces or cops in this instance.
Man is but a goat in the hands of butchers
Very true. "Cops are not workers" is a basic leftwing thought in my opinion.
“Despair is typical of those who do not understand the causes of evil, see no way out, and are incapable of struggle.”
― Vladimir Illich Lenin, leader of the proletariat.
If you're going to be a dickhead and keep calling me a "cop apologist" you could at least provide me with empirical evidence that isn't repeating the same arguments I've already addressed ITT multiple times.
I haven't seen you respond to the assertion that they do not actually take part in commodity production which is the general Marxist view of cops. Unless I missed it
Man is but a goat in the hands of butchers
There are times where I hate the police because of their awful "eye for an eye," ideals, but I don't think it's fair to convict individual policemen, who may have joined due to hardship, for crimes that are committed by the whole of our corrupt society. Most policemen are workers who are brainwashed by society and very few will genuinely believe in the terrible things they're made to do. I think we should be focusing on bringing people like this to full consciousness, not antagonising them.
A cop might be a perfectly nice person as an individual, but if he catches a black kid selling crack, the only way for him to do the "right thing" is for him to not do his job. Its his job to enforce racist or abusive laws. That should be the basis of our critique of cops - not that they all lack virtue as human beings, but that their institution exists to control people and to a large extent to maintain the status quo.
If a cop arrests a rapist, that is fine. If a cop arrests someone drunk driving outside of a school when kids are getting out, great. But most people arrested by the police are not like that. I think the dream many cops have when they join the force is dealing with cases like that, and psychologically I am sure they hone in on such cases to justify the kind of job they do, but for every person the cops put away for truly brutal activity, they put countless young people away (usually young men of color, and predominately the poor of both races) for petty crimes, to get jailed and tortured (often sexually) by guards and other prisoners for a few years.
And we're not even getting at the way every police force backs up any cop who kills someone on the street.
What source do you have for saying "most workers hate cops"? SOME sectors of workers hate cops (particularly workers of color, or British coal miners from the 80s) but that hardly makes it some kind of universal disposition of the working class. Do you have polls, or is it just your anecdotal experience from going to a couple factories where you live?
I don't want to deny that cops have historically fucked up striking workers, and yes in times of extreme class struggle the cops will be seen by workers as enemies, but I think the picture is much more complex than you paint it.
I don't think the ONLY job of the modern police is to secure private property. I think that is an outmoded way of looking at things.
Also, the Cheka had pretty much all of the same problems as a police force - unaccountability, abusive practices, use of torture to gain confessions and so on, with the only difference being that sustaining the revolution replaced sustaining private property.
The Cheka eventually developed into the NKVD, which ultimately became one of the most brutal apparatuses of state force outside of the fascist states and Europe's overseas colonies. Why did the police exist in Leftist police states if they only exist to preserve private property? Or do we call them something else?
When Left-coms, "revolutionary marxists", anarchists, and anarcho-communists cop-hate, that makes sense. Less so from any hardcore Leninist tradition.
I agree with supporting cops unions - although cops going on strike can be a good opportunity for other mass movements to act. There was a recent cop strike in Argentina I believe which led to mass looting and appropriation of the commodities in the private stores.
I've actually been in situations where a cop helped, specifically car-related ones. I'm not defending cops but perhaps you could come up with a better argument against them than an extreme and inaccurate generalization.Originally Posted by Vox
Socialist Party of Outer Space
I think it is appropriate to quote Trotsky here:
☭ “The ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas, i.e. the class which is the ruling material force of society, is at the same time its ruling intellectual force.” - Karl Marx ☭
Not to pick on you or your post but I think it's weir that those whom keep saying "we shouldn't generalize or paint things with a broad brush," are doing just that while defending law enforcement. Generalizing about the assholes? Bad, generalizing about everyone else? Good, poor them, etc.
Yes, poor cops with their government benefits, retirement plans, premium health insurances, wages, etc. Where I'm from, earning 50-60k annually is being "well off." Which is to say, again, I will not accept any sob stories. Let's see a couple examples of fine police work. Alexandria Hill, a two yr old happy little girl was removed from her loving parents because they smoked marijuana and then put into a foster home where a couple weeks later she had been beaten to death. What about all of the dogs and animals senselessly murdered because idiots with 0 animal handling experience perceived them as a threat? What about the children killed yearly by flash bang grenades during raids? What about the youth whom are killed for no reason other than being young and dumb? What about that corruption? What about all those unsolved murders, rapes and molestation? What about all those wrongful convictions? Wtf do the police do, how are they workers and why should I feel sorry for them?
Tbh honest, if you don't see cops as the enemy I can only assume your probably a role playing trust fund baby and haven't experienced the dark aide or true side of law enforcement.
Come little children, I'll take thee away, into a land of enchantment, come little children, the times come to play, here in my garden of magic.
"I'm tired of this "isn't humanity neat," bullshit. We're a virus with shoes."-Bill Hicks.
I feel the Bern and I need penicillin
So, one scenario, in which one cop, may have allegedly helped someone for once negates what I'm saying? How did the cop, specifically, him or herself, help you? Did he offer emergency medical assistance? Did he or she physically assist you? In what capacity? Or did he or she just wait and keep you company till the actual life savers came? If the latter, big deal, anyone could have done that.
Come little children, I'll take thee away, into a land of enchantment, come little children, the times come to play, here in my garden of magic.
"I'm tired of this "isn't humanity neat," bullshit. We're a virus with shoes."-Bill Hicks.
I feel the Bern and I need penicillin
The historic experience of the working-class movement, particularly in America and Britain (a subject I am interested in). I think that counts for more than those silly polls that some people like.
How is it more complex?Originally Posted by Sinister Cultural Marxist
Well, what other job do they have? They also intimidate workers and minorities, which again serves to further the interest of capital.Originally Posted by Sinister Cultural Marxist
But with all due respect, that's like saying that, overall, a tank is the same as a PEZ dispenser, only it dispenses HE shells instead of candy.Originally Posted by Sinister Cultural Marxist
Excuse me? First of all, how many Arabs did the NKVD (which existed alongside the Ch-K and the OGPU for a period) summarily execute while being led by a former Nazi? Zero? Now, how many Arabs did the French police summarily execute while being led by a former Nazi? Quite a fucking few. I really like it when people downplay "western" brutality in order to make the Evil Soviet Empire seem bad.Originally Posted by Sinister Cultural Marxist
These organisations might have been called "the police", "the people's police" or whatever, but if you hold - as most Trotskyists do - that private property was overthrown in the glacis states, then obviously you don't hold that they protected something that was nonexistent. So they were a different kind of state organ.Originally Posted by Sinister Cultural Marxist
How is mass looting going to help the proletariat to seize power?Originally Posted by Sinister Cultural Marxist
Well, anybody could have done that, but if the police does it, it helps to boost their image. On a very superficial level, it gives many people the illusion that the police is on their side. I think it is a very subtle control mechanism, which helps to solidify the capitalist hierarchy and legitimize the rule of the bourgeoisie. The police must appear to be necessary. This is also why "crime" is often exaggerated. If we do not feel unsafe enough, we might think of the police and other capitalist control mechanisms as... unnecessary, or even harmful to us.
☭ “The ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas, i.e. the class which is the ruling material force of society, is at the same time its ruling intellectual force.” - Karl Marx ☭
VoX p°PuŁï
Better yet, the cop took fingerprints to make sure he wasnt involved in any illegal activities and helping him to get the status of "free to go".So, one scenario, in which one cop, may have allegedly helped someone for once negates what I'm saying? How did the cop, specifically, him or herself, help you? Did he offer emergency medical assistance? Did he or she physically assist you? In what capacity? Or did he or she just wait and keep you company till the actual life savers came? If the latter, big deal, anyone could have done that.Originally Posted by Sinister Cultural Marxist
I've actually been in situations where a cop helped, specifically car-related ones. I'm not defending cops but perhaps you could come up with a better argument against them than an extreme and inaccurate generalization.
How can someone protect private property rights but be considered outside of the productive process? To exclude the police you'd have to exclude the entire service sector and basically anyone who isn't actually manufacturing something on an assembly line. Are security guards also not part of the production process? What about teachers, what objects do they produce? The 1800s was over a century ago, y'all need to get with the program.
What? If you're speaking of the Americas, manufacturing and production based jobs are dead. It's a service based economy, really and correct me if I am wrong, a service worker helping me get fit or have faster internet is not the same as a cop. Like apples and oranges as you would say.How can someone protect private property rights but be considered outside of the productive process? To exclude the police you'd have to exclude the entire service sector and basically anyone who isn't actually manufacturing something on an assembly line. Are security guards also not part of the production process? What about teachers, what objects do they produce? The 1800s was over a century ago, y'all need to get with the program.
Come little children, I'll take thee away, into a land of enchantment, come little children, the times come to play, here in my garden of magic.
"I'm tired of this "isn't humanity neat," bullshit. We're a virus with shoes."-Bill Hicks.
I feel the Bern and I need penicillin
Commodities aren't necessarily objects. A commodity is anything with an exchange-value, and numerous student slogans aside, an education is such a thing. But remove cops, and commodities would still be produced.How can someone protect private property rights but be considered outside of the productive process? To exclude the police you'd have to exclude the entire service sector and basically anyone who isn't actually manufacturing something on an assembly line. Are security guards also not part of the production process? What about teachers, what objects do they produce? The 1800s was over a century ago, y'all need to get with the program.
