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Under capitalism factory workers and fast food workers produce commodities. That is, they produce capital which oppresses them. When they organize, the police, guard dogs of that capital, break their strikes, jail them, beat them and kill them.
There is a fundamental difference between workers for nationalized industries or government services (education, transportation, etc.) and cops, even if their paychecks are drawn from the same funds. Anyone who's been on strike knows the difference.
This is more or less my point. Saying that the interests of police are diametrically opposed to those of us because their jobs won't exist post-revolution doesn't logically follow. Their jobs aren't any more important to them than anybody else's; why is there suddenly a dichotomy? It seems that all of you are predicating your position based on the idea that police officers would forsake communism over not being able to get paid to be cops anymore, and it's just strange. They would benefit from the loss of their jobs in the same way everybody else would.
See above.
The point is, they wouldn't. Not only would they lose their jobs, they would have a lot to answer for to the ruling proletariat, and if they are given a new job, it would not pay as much as their old job (cops are remunerated much more than an unskilled worker). And all of their old privileges, including their ability to inflict structural violence on the proletariat and the oppressed, would be gone.
If you want to get rid of the slaveowners, don't expect help from the foremen.
Most people don't get to choose their jobs, at best you can take some steps to ensure whatever job you'll get will be in a desired field. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that the individuals who do get to choose are going to have different interests than the rest of us. Taking a soldier for instance, would someone who enlisted have the same interests as someone who was conscripted? No, the person who enlisted has certain career goals in mind which will determine how he pursues his work, the conscript is simply waiting out a period of time before they can return to their normal life. In reality their interests are opposed to one another even though superficiality they appear to belong to the same grouping. Suppose the option to shut down the military as whole was put to a vote, do you believe it is assured that both of these individuals would vote the same?
Man is but a goat in the hands of butchers
What dream world do these cop-lovers live in?
Socialism is going to come about as a result of the working class taking power, forming its own government.
Now whenever the workers organize for even the most modest goals, what do the cops do? What does policeman's "job" entail? Which side are they on?
Police deserve any and all hate they get, why? Because they don't do a God damn thing. Think about it. Someone gets trapped in a car, is in critical condition and so on, who saves them? Who cuts them out? Fire dept and EMTs. Your grandmother has fallen and can't get up? EMTs and fire dept. Just got stabbed? EMTs and fire dept. It's the firemen and EMTs who actually save people and do things. The police don't do fuck all except harass and oppress the working class. They're not workers, they're not anything, they're a fucking joke. Someone gets shot and or killed daily where I live, you think Shittsburgh's fattest ever find the shooter(s)? No, ridiculous, over paid assholes. It's that cut and dry for me.
Come little children, I'll take thee away, into a land of enchantment, come little children, the times come to play, here in my garden of magic.
"I'm tired of this "isn't humanity neat," bullshit. We're a virus with shoes."-Bill Hicks.
I feel the Bern and I need penicillin
The idea that a cop who refuses to oppose the revolution or even joins us having "a lot to answer for" to a ruling class that they belong to is absurd. Your situation only happens if we assume the cop is reactionary in political views, in which case they're in a position not any different than any other working class reactionary who would take up arms against the revolution.
The enlisted and conscripted are not homogenous groups, and neither is the police force. Many soldiers and police are there for the benefits and relatively easy entry requirements, contrary to what you said previously. Not out of some weird desire to persecute communists or anarchists.
Sure, because that erases the decades that these "workers in uniform" have beaten, harassed and killed the proletariat and oppressed groups. Go down to the factory if you please and listen to what the workers have to say about their "brothers" policemen.
Those same benefits are available to people working at the DMV or any other bureaucratic position, and typically these positions will not require a specific degree or specialized academy training. No one settles on being a cop unless their ambitions had been higher up in the security services, FBI, DEA, whatever. Its not a vocation that one falls into just for the sake of employment, it requires effort to become a cop.
Man is but a goat in the hands of butchers
Exactly, in the states and specifically the commonwealth I live in, you must have a 4 year degree and you must also go through academy which judging from the brochure I was given seems an awful lot like boot camp for the regular military. I totally agree, you have to work to become a cop and they reject thousands of candidates a year I'm sure. I just "fell into," selling fake art and learning body piercing; you don't fall into being a beat cop.
Come little children, I'll take thee away, into a land of enchantment, come little children, the times come to play, here in my garden of magic.
"I'm tired of this "isn't humanity neat," bullshit. We're a virus with shoes."-Bill Hicks.
I feel the Bern and I need penicillin
They may be workers, but their class-interests lie with the bourgeois. There are reactionary layers of the proletariat, and these must be suppressed like the counter-revolutionaries they are. It doesn't matter what class they belong to; what matters is which class their allegiance lies with, and which side of the barricades they will be on. Obviously, these "workers in uniform", these despicable servants of Capital, will fight with their masters against us. This has been shown during strikes and revolutions alike.
Segui il tuo corso e lascia dir le genti.
Socialism resides entirely in the revolutionary negation of the capitalist ENTERPRISE, not in granting the enterprise to the factory workers.
- Bordiga
I think you grossly overestimate how many people who have had bad experiences with the police would abolish them. I doubt you could at this point in time convince a majority of imprisoned persons to abolish the police and their functions, much less any segment of the general population. Most people see many functions of the police, if not the police themselves, as necessary to a civil society. If I was wrong, we wouldn't be discussing communism theoretically right now. But this response, much like the others, has been more about an appeal to emotion than anything else.
This is just objectively not true. That you think you can tell me the reasons that every cop has become a cop, and that they all have the same one - career aspirations in the FBI or DEA - just shows me that you've painted millions of people with such a broad brush that they've lost all individuality or humanity. Police are not comic book villains or boogiemen, they're people with emotions and beliefs and lives. I'd be willing to bet almost none of them became cops because they wanted to beat up unionizing workers or student protesters.
Last edited by consuming negativity; 5th June 2014 at 14:53. Reason: protesters is spelled with an e at the end
Most workers do not think the police can be abolished, but the amount of antipathy they display for the police is impressive, and healthy. And no, my argument has nothing to do with emotions - most workers despise the cops. When the workers rule, and the police force has been smashed, do you think the policemen can expect much good?
I mean sure, there is police academy, but they don't ask for much else. Just a high school diploma, and college is an advantage. They do a background check, then your in. My teacher walked us through the hiring process, it's not that hard to become a cop apparently. Many of my friends and classmates then wanted to become cops because of that and the pay. I'm not sure how serious they were. One was very serious and I'm trying to talk him out of it, but maybe the opposition he gets if he ever does become a cop will be proof enough. I don't care about their personal life. When I see a cop, all I see is a cop. Yes they have a job to do, but that job is to fight against the interests of my class (so the vibe is cops not prols?). If we sympathies with any thugs who are "just following orders" we'll never get anywhere. If they come to our side, then that's marvelous! To bad it's not happening any time soon.
"Maybe some day... I'll find a way... without you.."
Ok, let's say this is true, my question is, so? Who cares? In fact, tbh, I would say fuck your dreams, this is reality, you chose a piss poor profession, sorry, BANG. What difference does it make if some cop has hopes, dreams, family, etc. what do I care? What relevance does that have to me? Legiately I seek and preach the abolishment of law enforcement as we know it. How are they workers exactly? Cuz they have a shot job and only make 50k? Boo-fuckity-hoo.
Come little children, I'll take thee away, into a land of enchantment, come little children, the times come to play, here in my garden of magic.
"I'm tired of this "isn't humanity neat," bullshit. We're a virus with shoes."-Bill Hicks.
I feel the Bern and I need penicillin
I feel as though you are trying to avoid discussion by appealing to moralism at this point. I don't care if every cop gets rounded up and thrown into a kiling pit after the revolution or if they get all the ice cream they can eat instead, its all irrelevant. I'm sure a great many cops are nice people off the job, but anyone with a brain can see that, yes, in fact being a cop means attacking unarmed protesters and also hunting down serial killers depending on the situation, that's what they exist for. You keep presenting it as some kind of minimum wage work that anyone can accidentally stumble into and find themselves in an uncomfortable situation that they were powerless to avoid. This is not the case, its a specialized job that requires years of effort on the part of the applicant. Yes the only people who "settle" for police work are those who weren't able to climb higher, and the rest are there because they specifically wanted to be cops. What is your personal stake in this, are you a cop or something?
Man is but a goat in the hands of butchers
Not if the people in charge sound like you.
No, but seriously, I don't think anybody in opposition can expect much good. That's kind of a hallmark of violent revolution. What makes you think there will be something different for police who take up arms against it as opposed to anyone else? That they're disliked by people now? So are clowns but I doubt they're going to be summarily executed. Bad example, yes, but I wanted to use a humorous one because I think you get my point either way.
I had to manually quote your post because the forum quote function is being stupid again. Alternatively, it realized the ridiculous amount of edge in your post and decided to protect itself from getting cut. My point was that the person I was responding to was ignoring the fact that people aren't just carbon copies based on SES combined with 2-3 other factors, like dolls on an assembly line.
I was wondering how long it would take for someone to ask me this. Even if I was I would deny it, but no, anybody who pays attention to my Non-Political posts knows I'm not a cop. As for your claim earlier in the post that I was making an appeal to emotion, read my response to Vox Populi.
Last edited by consuming negativity; 5th June 2014 at 15:08. Reason: added in ethics gradient response
Your teacher is either mistaken or you live in a very rural area with lax requirements. Cops require specific degrees in addition to training, physical aptitudes and clean personal records.
Man is but a goat in the hands of butchers
Can you please provide me some more info on this? Maybe a link or something. From what I heard all you need is a high school diploma or GED to apply. Having a college education in any field is just a bonus. Also speaking a second language. The prerequisites are pretty easy to fulfill, based on what my teacher said.
"Maybe some day... I'll find a way... without you.."
Im at work at the moment, but I can post stuff later. I worked as a contractor in local government for a few years so I had to interact with lots of cops in many different states. It wouldn't supirse me if areas outside of major cities don't "require" a degree but you'd have no chance of getting the position due to how desirable those jobs are, particularly for people coming out of the military with few useful skills.
Man is but a goat in the hands of butchers
