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Patriotism. Why?
Hello fellow comrades and non-comrades,
Why are people patriotic?
I can't seem to wrap my mind around this one, what makes people seem so attracted to the country they are from and support it as if it is a religion?
Economic Left/Right: -10 (<- That means I am left wing)
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian -9.08 (<- That means I am libertarian
From: http://www.politicalcompass.org/
"If you saw my real picture, you might wet yourself....with laughter, I might add." - Comrade Dodger
One of the first things I remember about going to kindergarten was learning the pledge to the flag. Its still ingrained in my mind twenty years later. They make every effort to teach us to be patriotic and it eventually sinks in.
I just think most people don't think about it, or they at least want something to feel proud about and patriotism is an acceptable outlet. I don't know.
I think some distinction should be made from the patriots who worship the ruling class and those who do not. Historically, some leftist movements (not neccessarily socialist or revolutionary) have used patriotism as a device for gaining power. Another difference is between these who believe their "nation" is somehow superior and those who do not. Note to all these quick to judge, I am not patriotic nor nationalist nor anything of the sort.
Either way, nationalism and patriotism basically comes down to love of the state and its symbolism, which is really disgusting. It's a device for separating people, rather than uniting them. And nationalism is what allowed bullshit like fascism and the Iraq war to happen.
Propaganda, history, international situation, etc
From a young age people see the depiction of the nation in which they reside. They're told glamorized stories and falsehoods to make the nation seem as if it were something sacred. People defend their nation because it's become a part of their identity, a part of who they are that doesn't really exist and they defend their country because it's a sense of familiarity to them. It's something to cling to because, you know, your country is number one or some shit like that. The country gets sold to them their whole lives in a variety of forms.
Also I'm stoned how does what I say sound? I think that's a bad post....
Here is some good reading material on patriotism: http://ucblibrary3.berkeley.edu/gold...atriotism.html
It is a really good post comrde, brilliant.
Okay, 2 more questions
Are the people who fall for patriotism stupid? and why do people like myself not fall for it?
Economic Left/Right: -10 (<- That means I am left wing
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian -9.08 (<- That means I am libertarian
From: http://www.politicalcompass.org/
"If you saw my real picture, you might wet yourself....with laughter, I might add." - Comrade Dodger
It's an easy and visible, albeit meaningless, point of identification. The private national Bourgeois in the form of the state essentially convince those proletariats and Petit-bourgeois that reside in their nation state that because they all belong to the same country (read nation state) then their all have a shared interest. Of course the bourgeosie benefits exclusively from this lie but it's a lot harder to explain that our interests are drawn in class lines. This issue is worsen by the fact that upper classes through out history have created centuries of propaganda (in one form or an other) that exaclty re-afirms this concept of state loyalty.
This isn't to say that it is impossible to further revolution with a patriotic tint to it while still possesing an internationalist stance.
I know i wasn't asked this but what the hell.It is a really good post comrde, brilliant.
Okay, 2 more questions
Are the people who fall for patriotism stupid? and why do people like myself not fall for it?
No they're not "stupid", to say so is kinda elitist. It's just hard to fight what Sinester Intents and I said, plus most people don't really get exposed to an internationalist mode of thinking. It's also hard to identify against the status quo as being unpatriotic due to fears of being socially ostrizised.
Well it's hard to say without knowing you but if i had to take a guess it may be because either it wasn't hammered as much into you or you've simply been exposed to a certain skeptic mode of thinking.
Last edited by Einkarl; 22nd April 2014 at 01:49.
because you're a genius
Thank you.
But I was expecting a different answer. I didn't mean to sound arrogant or rude, I honestly can't understand how people can fall for it when I don't (I am not very good at understanding how people think).
Economic Left/Right: -10 (<- That means I am left wing
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian -9.08 (<- That means I am libertarian
From: http://www.politicalcompass.org/
"If you saw my real picture, you might wet yourself....with laughter, I might add." - Comrade Dodger
Being patriotic or not does not show someone's intelligence, how smart they are, or whatever. Plus everyone is intelligent in different ways and areas.It is a really good post comrde, brilliant.
Okay, 2 more questions
Are the people who fall for patriotism stupid? and why do people like myself not fall for it?
You don't fall for patriotism because you see it for what it is, and not a symbol of 'your' people who are somehow all better than everyone else because they're *insert nationality here*.
Nationalism and patriotism are like trapped creatures beginning to love the location where they're trapped. They keep getting fed lie after lie, and don't realize that the state that they love so much actually hates them because they're not the select privileged few at the top.
Thank you comrade.
I personally have a really hard time trying to figure out how people think. I personally can't understand how people have different opinions than me, I have to work on that area otherwise I might annoy someone.
Economic Left/Right: -10 (<- That means I am left wing
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian -9.08 (<- That means I am libertarian
From: http://www.politicalcompass.org/
"If you saw my real picture, you might wet yourself....with laughter, I might add." - Comrade Dodger
No problem. I used to be extremely patriotic. I loved everything American made and all that fun bullshit. I used to think Americans were better than everyone and my nation was the best, yeah 'Murica and the red white and blue *gags* *coughs on pot smoke*
edit: The worse posts I've made are in this thread because I'm too depressed haha...
G C
I've been from the grey Atlantic to the green Pacific,
G C
I've seen countless beautiful things in between; seen some that were horrific.
B C D
Y'know I don't think that the ratio is better than anywhere else,
B C D
Consequently I'm not sure why you're so full of yourself.
C G C
Your displaced narcissism strikes me as neurotic,
B C D
And y'know I'm proud to be . . .
G
Unpatriotic.
[same progression as first verse]
It's not that I don't love the place that I grew up,
And y'know I think my neighbours are, well they're just fine.
But I don't see what that has to do with lines on a map.
No, I don't see what that has to do with flags, anthems, and all that crap.
I think the national mythos is utterly moronic,
And y'know I'll always be . . .
Unpatriotic.
C D G C
I've stood in the shadow of the statue of Cornwallis,
C D G
Looked from Quebec over the plains of Abraham.
C D G C
I've hear the stories of Grand Dérangements and genocides.
C D G
Rode the CP line, across this stolen land.
C D
[Verse progression]
I've been from the green Pacific to the grey Atlantic,
I've met heartless men in suits and hopeless romantics.
'Cos people are all different, no matter where they're from.
The difference that concerns me is, "Who's got the power? Who's got the guns?"
They're the ones who sing us songs of glory and of pride,
[two extra line of C/G here!]
They're the ones who send us off to foreign lands to die,
Hiding behind flags, they're cowardly and despotic.
And that's why I will always be . . .
Unpatriotic.
The life we have conferred upon these objects confronts us as something hostile and alien.
Formerly Virgin Molotov Cocktail (11/10/2004 - 21/08/2013)
Thank you for that wonderful song (or perhaps it was a poem) comrade.
It is a very good song/poem, who wrote it?
Economic Left/Right: -10 (<- That means I am left wing
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian -9.08 (<- That means I am libertarian
From: http://www.politicalcompass.org/
"If you saw my real picture, you might wet yourself....with laughter, I might add." - Comrade Dodger
Marshal, how would you feel about people exclaiming how much better 'Murica is than Australia?
I would think of that person as silly. I wouldn't be upset about what they are saying (America is better than Australia), however I would be upset that they think one country is better than another country. All countries are equal no matter where you are from.
Though as socialists we want to get rid of all countries and replace them a worldwide socialist (then later communist) society.
Economic Left/Right: -10 (<- That means I am left wing
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian -9.08 (<- That means I am libertarian
From: http://www.politicalcompass.org/
"If you saw my real picture, you might wet yourself....with laughter, I might add." - Comrade Dodger
Ideological justification of feudalism = 'great chain of being': God gave power to the king, your position in society is divinely ordained. Bourgeoisie opposed to this, needs new legitimising ideology that binds the lower orders (ones that actually do the fighting) to their conquest of power. The idea of 'nationhood', common interest according to cultural characteristics (usually language) embodied in the state, is invented.
The criticism of religion ends with the teaching that man is the highest essence for man – hence, with the categoric imperative to overthrow all relations in which man is a debased, enslaved, abandoned, despicable essence, relations which cannot be better described than by the cry of a Frenchman when it was planned to introduce a tax on dogs: Poor dogs! They want to treat you as human beings!
- Karl Marx, Introduction to A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right
Division and conquest. The international bourgeoisie laugh in the face of patriotic displays.
My machine my machine,
Please bring my machine.
Yes, but it's not just ideology, it's material organization. The Bourgeoisie created nation states: organized and normalized trade and so on within their borders, protected access to trade outside the borders. Created a labor force, uniting all the provincial local people into a "national" people with one language, often a shared education that taught uniform skills and so on. The ideological part is treating their organization of populations and area as "universal" and that "what's good for the nation is good for the people". To the bourgoise of course that means what's good for them and their economy. The other and much more long-lasting ideological effect is to unite different classes into a "mass" and to create an identity that suggests that a worker or farmer or billionaire from one place have more in common than counterpart farmers or workers or bosses in different places.
But for the population, why this has some effect is that the destruction of tradditional communite, the constant disruption of geographic stability (people move around a lot more under capitalism because they aren't tied to any land and they have to seek wage-work), the divisions/oppressions within the working class, the atomization and alienation of daily life, mean that to find a ready-made community, patriotism is the available polyester to the cotton of real community.
So for Yanks here, whenever you hear someone chant: "U-S-A, U-S-A", just imagine that they are actually saying: "My-Life-Is-Empty, Must-Find-Connection".
It's a kind of false universality (that helps our rulers, obviously which is why it's promoted and idealized) that isn't based on interestes (like basing your identity on and finding community with Trekkers or Punk Rockers - both of which I fully support people doing as an alternative to patriotism).
I don't think it's a question of 'falling for anything' (although propaganda is undoubtedly intertwined with the issue raised). It's a case of 'identity'. A myriad of social, economic, and political factors combine to make the assumption of a national identity by an individual an attractive position to take.
When economic times are tough and a worker can't find a job, it is easy to rally around the idea that those pesky immigrants are the reason for these problems and, if only the country sticks together as it did in those mythical olden days, we can be a strong, proud, and prosperous nation.
And besides, people tend to mix in their own social circles, and so it is rather easy for people to mould their understanding of 'the nation' to their own lives. A middle-class white person who hangs around with other middle-class white people in the 'burbs might imagine that if only they could stop the flow of muslamic ray guns that the country would be 100% middle-class, white, and suburban. It's mistaken, but it's based largely on ignorance, comfort, and visibility.
I think they key to combating patriotism is through education (and propaganda), by highlighting diversity. How do people in Britain really live, for example? Does everyone live in the same way? Does every white person live the same way? How do muslim people experience events? How do poor/rich people really experience events differently?
By breaking down the national barrier and highlighting the diversity that exists within a national border, we can start to move towards real unity and real common ground, not one based on lies, assumption, and propaganda such as patriotism and the national myth.
