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I don't know how to react to this.
First off, I am not gay and therefore do not claim to speak for anyone who is gay. It's not my place and that is the way it should be. I say this to cover my ass and not to give false impressions.
However, even though I myself am not gay, I thought that it's ok for me to call out when someone is being a blantant, homophobic asshole. There is this guy I know (friend of a friend) that was saying to me and other people on the Facebooks that even though he doesn't "hate" gay men per se, he feels that same-sex relationships are wrong, "disgusting", and an "abomination". He says that he hopes that in due time homosexual men will see the error in their ways (BTW he only has a problem with men being gay. He's okay with women being sexually attracted to other women because apperantly thats "hot" to him).
I decide to call him out for being a homophobic prick and we get in a bit of an argument online (btw i do know this dude in person). He says typical homophobic shit about it being unatural or a mental ailment while occasionally remind me that he isn't being homophobic, just "telling it like it is".
But something happend that really caught me off guard. His friend, who I didn't know and claims to be gay (he enjoys dressing in womens clothing and his PI says hes into men so believe him), dropped in and started defending him on the basis of him having the right to hold that opinion. This friend of his then tells me to "step off my high horse" and that I shouldn't mess with his friend.
Was I wrong to call this dude out? Why would someone who is gay defend a homophobe? How should I react?
Thanks a bundle guys.
(Sorry if this isn't the right board to post this thread. Also, sorry if "gay" isn't a PC term, I didn't want to use the word "homosexual" because i thought it sounded too sterill an i thought that might be worse.)
Gay is fine as a word. As a bisexual guy I would say that I would want anyone and everyone to attack backward harmful and hurtful views WHENEVER they come up. That his friend is gay makes no difference.
You were not wrong to call this dude out. That bigoted asshole needs to be told when he's being such and I know a massive amount of LGBTQ folks who would be thankful that you did so.
We don't really know the whole situation regarding the other person in this discussion so I'd venture a guess that they feel greatly threatened by this person and his bigoted views and so they attempted to seek some sort of shelter in confirming his right to say what he said. There is safety in doing so as it places them in a position of support, perhaps to be viewed as 'despicable but at least they have a sound head on their shoulders' because they supported my rights.
Just my thoughts.
If we have no business with the construction of the future or with organizing it for all time, there can still be no doubt about the task confronting us at present: the ruthless criticism of the existing order, ruthless in that it will shrink neither from its own discoveries, nor from conflict with the powers that be.
- Karl Marx
you did just fine. I see nothing wrong in calling out those dickheads. As to this gay guy...hard to say why he reacted this way. I don't think that freedom of speech involves hate speech against certain groups. But there are people who think it does. I know gays who vote for conservative Christian parties, or immigrants who support nationalist stances.
Liberal Dudes are guys who will jump up and down to tell you that they’re all about equality and prosperity for everyone, but then tell you about the strip club they were at the night before or about the awesome anal porn site they last jerked off to. Liberal Dudes are ready to welcome us into the boardroom, provided we’re still willing to dance on the conference table at the employee party. Liberal Dudes love “sex-positive” “feminists” because Liberal Dudes support women’s freedom and “rights,” up to and including our “right” to strip and to suck dicks for money. Liberal Dudes love to see women embracing pornorific behavior like pole dancing, pube waxing, porn watching, thong wearing, chick kissing, and boob flashing as a means to “empowerment,” because that’s exactly the kind of power they want us to have: the power to give them boners.
Sometimes, an oppressed person is simply an Uncle Tom, getting a sort of relative privilege by loudly echoing the oppressive views of the wider society, particularly their circle of "friends" etc. Don't let it bother you.
No, you weren't wrong to call the dude out. He needs to be called out.
The person who defended his "right" to hold and express his opinion is a liberal idiot, regardless of his sexual orientation. The "right to free speech" ends when it becomes hate speech.
Also this
is something about homophobes that pisses me off a lot, because it's also deeply sexist. It basically translates to "homosexuality is gross and wrong... unless it's two women who are sexy objects for me to wank over."
"Her development, her freedom, her independence must come from and through herself. First, by asserting herself as a personality, and not as a sex commodity. Second, by refusing the right to anyone over her body; by refusing to bear children unless she wants them; by refusing to become a servant to God, the State, society, the husband, the family, etc. ... by freeing herself from the fear of public opinion and public condemnation. Only that, and not the ballot, will set woman free, will make her a force hitherto unknown in the world, a force for real love, for peace, for harmony; a force of divine fire, of life-giving; a creator of free men and women."~ Emma Goldman
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What a fucking idiot. That's classic homophobic idiocy.Originally Posted by friend of friend
EDIT: Oops, Quail already pointed that out.
"We have seen: a social revolution possesses a total point of view because – even if it is confined to only one factory district – it represents a protest by man against a dehumanized life" - Marx
"But to push ahead to the victory of socialism we need a strong, activist, educated proletariat, and masses whose power lies in intellectual culture as well as numbers." - Luxemburg
fka the greatest Czech player of all time, aka Pavel Nedved
The thing that really bothers me is that I see this type of shit all the time, and not exclusively about sexuality. I once knew this middle eastern guy back in highschool who would let other people make "hurr hurr terrorist" jokes at his expense and would never protest. I had a class with him in which we were put in groups and had to organize skits within a minute (often with some theme) and I remember that in his group his role was to say "death to america" and blow the other studets up. I asked this other kid who knew him better and was also in his group if he was okay with him playing a pretty racist caricature, and the response he gave me was along the lines of "no not really, but he just smiles and doesn't say anything about it".
I've also heard women being really fucking sexist towards other women. Especially when it comes to "slut" shaming. That is by far the WORST in regard to how prevalent it is. I used to have this girlfriend who used to do it all the time and really fucking confused me.
that's a bit different, though, becauce women doing this REALLY believe that it's just fine dividing women in categories like good girl/the girl you'd like to marry and slut/***** only to have fun with. But yeah, it's totally awful seeing this over and over again, especially because women tend to be their own worst enemies.
Liberal Dudes are guys who will jump up and down to tell you that they’re all about equality and prosperity for everyone, but then tell you about the strip club they were at the night before or about the awesome anal porn site they last jerked off to. Liberal Dudes are ready to welcome us into the boardroom, provided we’re still willing to dance on the conference table at the employee party. Liberal Dudes love “sex-positive” “feminists” because Liberal Dudes support women’s freedom and “rights,” up to and including our “right” to strip and to suck dicks for money. Liberal Dudes love to see women embracing pornorific behavior like pole dancing, pube waxing, porn watching, thong wearing, chick kissing, and boob flashing as a means to “empowerment,” because that’s exactly the kind of power they want us to have: the power to give them boners.
Let's not forget that lesbians don't actually exist and only make out etc. with other women to draw male attention to themselves.
oh man I forgot that they censor bi.tch
Liberal Dudes are guys who will jump up and down to tell you that they’re all about equality and prosperity for everyone, but then tell you about the strip club they were at the night before or about the awesome anal porn site they last jerked off to. Liberal Dudes are ready to welcome us into the boardroom, provided we’re still willing to dance on the conference table at the employee party. Liberal Dudes love “sex-positive” “feminists” because Liberal Dudes support women’s freedom and “rights,” up to and including our “right” to strip and to suck dicks for money. Liberal Dudes love to see women embracing pornorific behavior like pole dancing, pube waxing, porn watching, thong wearing, chick kissing, and boob flashing as a means to “empowerment,” because that’s exactly the kind of power they want us to have: the power to give them boners.
Him having the right to hold the opinion doesn't make it any less idiotic. Tell his friend that you can say whatever you want because you "have the right to hold that opinion". You weren't wrong to call this guy out. He's objectively wrong. There's nothing "unnatural" about being gay, homosexuality is quite common in other animal species, and if it were unnatural, humans wouldn't do it. Mental health is a big grey area but the general consensus among psychologists/psychiatrists is that homosexuality isn't a mental illness.
Saying that gay relationships are an "abomination" is pretty fucking rude. Did you unleash a disproportionate shitstorm of insults on that person? Otherwise, I cannot see why that gay person would back him up, other than some variant of Stockholm syndrome. Does not mean that you are in the wrong at all, people who belong to an oppressed group defend their oppressors all the time, best example being the people who defend capitalism even though it is obviously fucking them up, or women who go on about how men are "stronger" and "more intelligent" and shit like that.
He has the right to hold his opinion, you have the right to hold your opinion that he's a homophobic fuckbag. I'm really tired of these people who say something idiotic and get called out on it, and then they just yell "freedom of speech!" Huh? Freedom of speech also means you can criticize people for what they say, it does not mean people can say stupid shit unchallenged.
Last edited by Redistribute the Rep; 18th April 2014 at 22:00.
"We should not say that one man's hour is worth another man's hour, but rather that one man during an hour is worth just as much as another man during an hour. Time is everything, man is nothing: he is at the most time's carcass." Karl Marx
It's never wrong to call someone out for their bigotry.
Maybe he has a thing for the homophobe. Who knows. As someone who's bi and trans, I certainly wouldn't defend a 'phobe, and that would make me end my friendship with them not defend them.
Call them both out. Also, tell the gay guy that if his friend has a "right" to hate speech, you have a right to criticize it.
"I have declared war on the rich who prosper on our poverty, the politicians who lie to us with smiling faces, and all the mindless, heartless robots who protect them and their property." - Assata Shakur
I admit I am aroused by this, but I am not a homophobe.
Of course he wasn't okay with it, but it can be pretty tough speaking out against these things when you're alone and everyone is laughing at your expense.
This is exactly why everyone should call this shit out when they see it, friends be damned. Who the fuck wants to be friends with racist assholes anyway.
He doesn't have a right to hold that opinion, it is never acceptable. No human right legalistic grounds should ever be used to legitimize his opinion. Hate speech is not speech, it is just terror.
First off, I am gonna respond piece by piece because there is a lot here.
Okay, cool, I'm not a fan of mushrooms. lol I do not speak for people who like eating mushrooms.
It still is okay to call a motherfucker out.
Homosexuality was taken out of the DSM, did he not get the memo?
He has a right to his shitty opinion, that is true, and those of us with at least a third of a brain also have a right to our opinion that the guy is a bigot and an asshole.
Ummmm...
... no, you weren't wrong to do so...
Betrayal of queer culture and maybe some internalized homophobia, such things happen to some within any oppressed community.
Just as you did.
uh, no problem.
Gay is a perfectly okay word, though I don't buy into PC shit myself. Political correctness comes off too whiney to me, but that doesn't mean I don't think people shouldn't be decent fucking people.
But gay is an okay term and even cry baby PC punx would most likely agree on that.
I dreamt of a flower that was so beautiful that when it whithered away and died a tear left my eye. I saw our births, our lives and our deaths. I felt fire paint me with pain and I felt a kiss on my lips with a knife in my neck. Love to heartbreak to self-destruction to birth and to finally learning to frolic back into the same trap with a warm smile.
O|O
My blog: The Riot Slut Rage
Political correctness/PC is one of those shitty buzzwords used by the right which sets my internal alarm-clocks off. Whenever some white guy is prevented from saying discriminatory shit in public it's always "Political correctness gone maaaaaid" and cue a row about how poor privileged white people aren't allowed to call black people niggers anymore.
Einkarl and the rest of us would probably be accused of being "cry baby PC punx". That's one of the things that happen when you don't just passively accept the abuse people spew. You get called whiny, humorless or weak. As if being offended is a sign of weakness. In fact real weakness is avoiding conflict and putting up with shit that you shouldn't, letting racists, homophobes and sexists get away with bullying and oppressing people. Fuck that.
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