Is it possible to be anarchist/communist yet still be in the military

[Red Economist]

I'm suffering from some cognitive dissonance because I've been exploring the communist, anarchist, socialist scenes in my state and agree wholeheartedly with them, yet I still really want to join the U.S. Navy and become a corpsman (which also seems to be a contradiction to the philosophies). What do you think about this? Can I still be a part of this movement and serve in the military?

...I really want to work on the hospital ships, but even if that doesn't happen, I want to be a medic in the military…mostly for personal reasons but also because I come from a military family.

I have been a pacifist most of my life. To be honest, my pacifist sentiments strongly conflict with my own communist beliefs on revolution, dictatorship and most especially the legitimacy of revolutionary terror and it's an on-going thought process.

The only time I've been close to this in real-life was last year, when my best friend and long-time gay-straight crush became an arms dealer. After a very drawn out, complicated and messy exchange where I tried to talk him out of it, we are no longer friends. it took me a while, but I had to accept I couldn't physically do anything for the people he was hurting (sorry, killing) beyond talk him out of it nor could I stop him because it was entirely legal.

In theory being on the far left and being in the military (in a capitalist society) are things which strongly conflict with one another- though not impossible.

The argument among Socialists/Communists in World War one was that the proletariat of all countries was fighting for their respective bourgeoisie and this split the Second International between those who supported the war (the overwhelming majority) who became the 'socialists' and those who were against the war who (eventually) became the communists.

For the 'Socialists' it depends on the degree to which they are humanist-pacifist or nationalist/patriotic. The more humanist will emphasize universal human morality as a basis for peace, whilst the Nationalist will go for national differences and conflict of interests as the basis for war.

Communism is a bit of a paradox as it has a class based attitude towards violence. it depends on whether the violence serves a class interest. I.e. "Capitalist War bad, Worker's Revolution good".

The status of "revolutionary wars" by 'Worker's States' was debated around the time of the Soviet-Polish War in the early 20's and it caused problems over the obvious self-contradiction of whether you could force another nation to be free. This was unexpected problem because Lenin, Trotsky etc, thought they were on the verge of a world revolution that would destroy nation states, form a world government and economic system and make war unnecessary.
Exporting revolution by military conquest/'liberation' by the Soviet Military was accepted as a doctorine for occupying/Sovietising eastern Europe (and North Korea) and establishing people's republics across this area in the wake of World war II.

Anarchists are going to be unequivocally against (in theory) because your associating with a 'state', but have had 'armies' in both Ukraine in the Russian Civil War and (I think) Catalonia in the Spanish Civil War. Some Anarchists are also Pacifists because violence equals coercion and loss of individual liberty.

So intellectually, 'yes' their is probably a way to be in the Far left and be in the Military.

But in truth, it really comes down to a very simple question: Are you prepared to kill another person?

The truth is that ideology- of any kind- is but a way of putting a nice shop window on political violence to get you in. even pacificism in it's absolute sense is a willingness to accept your own death, rather than kill another person. How you rationalize it, doesn't change what you are doing. Once you're in a war zone- the only way you're going to get out is by killing other people. There is a great deal of stuff in our Media, whether it is Film, Television or Gaming that casualizes, trivializes and abstracts it so that people don't think about it and warfare becomes an accepted part of the political landscape or the 'real world'.
The hero just walks around the building killing all the 'bad guys' and the bad guys just go about killing the defenceless innocent civilians who need to be saved (by the state). And then the good guys wins and he walks away fine. This is bollocks. In real life, there is very little difference between the good guys and the bad guys (except when your dealing with 'fanatics', but they are on BOTH sides, not one or the other). Often, the 'bad guys' win too.

History books are not simply written by the 'victors' but by the leaders as well. The ruling class sees a war from the rear, sitting in big open rooms with large maps, moving arrows around and thinking in terms of strategy and tactics. This is why it is so easy for them to make decisions, including bad ones. But each of these arrows represents 'people' who are risking their lives by taking someone else's. The generals cliam victory, but in all probability to the people on the front line, having to fight the war was a defeat in itself. IF they survive, they will lose friends and possibly limbs or faculties. IF they die, first, their dead, and second their relatives will lose someone they love. These are the people who you would be treating on a hospital ship.

The most common reason for being attracted to the Far Left is the desire to rebel. And if your family is in the military- it's more than likely you've got a lot to rebel against. Psychologically- that should be ringing a few alarm bells as if in your attraction to the far left means in your heart you want to rebel against your parents-now is the time before you get involved in something you can't walk away from and to chose to be free to make your own decision- what ever that may be.

[BIXX]

@Echo
it all depends on your contract. Most who join the military do so with out being able to choose what job they want. If you pass the requirements and the job you want is: understaffed, you can out that job in your contract when you enlist.

I know people who were trained (by the military) to do medical work at a base in the US, but then were shipped to Iraq for combat which they were not prepared for in any way. That is my point- it's not worth the risk IMO.

[cyu]

The world is a better place because people of honor like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_Manning joined the military, than let it be overrun by certain duplicitous scum listed at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directo...ecurity_Agency

[Rain]

I thought about that too for a second, but it's fairly obvious that there is a massive difference between paying taxes (as the law demands) and voluntarily joining the largest imperial war machine on earth.

Even the mechanics on the Death Star got what they deserved...

Most people don't join the military to kill people and go to war in my opinion. Aren't there a lot of other things people do in day to day life that supports the imperial effort just as much?

[Left Voice]

^I would say the difference is that joining the army is a conscious choice. The United States does not have the draft - people choose to join the army. There may be certain special circumstances where the army is the only place some can turn to when in need (paying for tuition fees, for example), but this is usually not the case.

By comparison, earning a wage within the capitalist system (which I assume is your implication when you say "Aren't there a lot of other things people do in day to day life that supports the imperial effort just as much?") is actually not a choice. That's precisely the point - workers having to sell their labour is not a choice, it is a necessity in order to be able to feed themselves and their families. I don't think a parallel can be drawn between choosing to join the army, and the many other ways that workers have to survive within the capitalist system.

You've provided many of the explanations yourself - you come from a military background, so that has shaped your perception of the military in a certain way. Much of this experience probably needs to be unlearned. I'd say there are quite a few squares that you're trying to circle, and you should probably do that before giving your life away to the military.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Generally speaking...
Of course it is possible to be a leftist and be in the military. Many people have been duped into joining the military during an impressionable point and only after being sucked into it realize the implications of what they signed up for. There are plenty of working class kids who get sucked into that due to lack of opportunity and options combined with the lies military recruiters tell about opportunities offered by "joining up" and shit.

If you're someone who is thinking about joining the military, I strongly recommend against it.

[Hrafn]

I thought about that too for a second, but it's fairly obvious that there is a massive difference between paying taxes (as the law demands) and voluntarily joining the largest imperial war machine on earth.

Even the mechanics on the Death Star got what they deserved...

If you had read that novel, it'd be quite clear that they did not.

[workers of the]

so I read all of your comments and i really wants you be in my shoes.
if i wouldent go to the army i will be in jail for 3 years and all my friends and Accumulator including my grandfather would cut off contact.
you need to understand that i thought about this long time and the way you comment it isnt nice.
what you think would make more positive effect-
sitting in jail fo 3 years while somebody would do the exact role that i chosen for or
-
make the change from the inside. you can check a house of palastins in diffrent ways, wouldnt it make diffrance if will do it in humane way and convince my teamates to act human as well?
take from example Edward Snowden he got into the system to try change it.
think about it this way and i hope your next comments would be more nice and show more understand of my situation.

(sorry for my english, i wrote it with Enthusiasm)

[human strike]

All work reproduces capitalism. Arguably housework does more to maintain capitalism than military work. Housewives generally don't go around murdering brown people though. Swings and roundabouts, comrade.

[Left Voice]

The difference is though, that wage labour is mandatory in a capitalist system. People generally choose to join the military. Massive difference.

[tallguy]

The difference is though, that wage labour is mandatory in a capitalist system. People generally choose to join the military. Massive difference.

For some, who have little or no education and who have been brought up in economically depressed environments, "choosing" to join the military and mandatory wage labour can be, for all practical purposes, synonymous.

[mindsword]

Depends. Are you planning on taking pictures of secret prisons / top level kill-order lists and posting them on revleft? In that case i salute you on your new job.

(If they tell you to kill somebody we like, just run. Or quit. Or blast em with your brand new m-16. and dont tell em we said it.)

[tallguy]

Depends. Are you planning on taking pictures of secret prisons / top level kill-order lists and posting them on revleft? In that case i salute you on your new job.

(If they tell you to kill somebody we like, just run. Or quit. Or blast em with your brand new m-16. and dont tell em we said it.)

Too late, I'm afraid. I was fired three months into the job for having the "wrong attitude". Long story and a long time ago.

Still haven't managed to shake the"wrong attitude", however.

Edit to add:

Ahh...You may have been replying to the OP, in which case please disregard the above post.

[human strike]

The difference is though, that wage labour is mandatory in a capitalist system. People generally choose to join the military. Massive difference.

The military is wage labour. Perhaps there is a difference, but I don't think it's a massive one, at least not in the sense you suggest.

Anyway, @OP don't join the military, it's fucking grim.

[tallguy]

......Anyway, @OP don't join the military, it's fucking grim.

yep

[mindsword]

Too late, I'm afraid. I was fired three months into the job for having the "wrong attitude". Long story and a long time ago.

Still haven't managed to shake the"wrong attitude", however.

Edit to add:

Ahh...You may have been replying to the OP, in which case please disregard the above post.

it was a reply to the OP :P

[Slavic]

Depends. Are you planning on taking pictures of secret prisons / top level kill-order lists and posting them on revleft? In that case i salute you on your new job.

(If they tell you to kill somebody we like, just run. Or quit. Or blast em with your brand new m-16. and dont tell em we said it.)

Thats a good way to get yourself killed/throw in prison and not accomplish anything meaningful.

A good deal of us joined because it is a steady paycheck. Granted I am a Guardsman so I still hold a civilian job, but while I was in boot camp a good deal of the active duty folks there joined because they needed work and couldn't go to school. There are always the people that join for ideological reasons but they are not always in the majority.

This is Air Force mind you, I am not sure how the breakdown of attitudes run along the different services.

[consuming negativity]

If you're in the United States, our armed forces will make the decision for you. If they catch you being affiliated with anti-government anarchist/communist groups, you'll eventually get canned.

Yet, as indicated by the article you've linked, the Refuseniks' movement does exist, and, it seems to me, any principled communist should absolutely refuse to serve in the occupied territories. For that matter, they should actively work to undermine the occupation, and failing to do so constitutes a moral failing.

To clarify - I'm not singling out Israel in this regard - I would feel the same way about any RCMP Officer, or Canadian who doesn't take seriously anti-colonial solidarity.

Morality without severe sacrifice is not an option for many people. Moreover, there's not much point in becoming another name that gets thrown in jail one day whom we never hear from again. I would say that an intelligent, successful undermining of the occupation is moral and to be lauded, but to judge each and every person with their own individual situations as immoral for not actively working against the occupation is absurd and alienating for many good people.

[MarxSchmarx]

so I read all of your comments and i really wants you be in my shoes.
if i wouldent go to the army i will be in jail for 3 years and all my friends and Accumulator including my grandfather would cut off contact.
you need to understand that i thought about this long time and the way you comment it isnt nice.
what you think would make more positive effect-
sitting in jail fo 3 years while somebody would do the exact role that i chosen for or
-
make the change from the inside. you can check a house of palastins in diffrent ways, wouldnt it make diffrance if will do it in humane way and convince my teamates to act human as well?
take from example Edward Snowden he got into the system to try change it.
think about it this way and i hope your next comments would be more nice and show more understand of my situation.

(sorry for my english, i wrote it with Enthusiasm)

It's simply too easy for those of us who don't have to face this choice to tell you to "stand up for what you believe in" and suffer so heavily for it.

Many admire those who do things the hard way. We had a poster here who was sent to jail for several months recently for refusing conscription. But several months is different from several years. If you'd like to get in touch with them, ask them their perspective, I could try to dig up their info for you.

One thing you should consider in your situation is whether you can get an exemption as a pacifist. From what I understand, under Israeli law people who are committed pacifists can be exempt from military service, although it seems the requirements for proving one's pacifism are quite steep:

http://citation.allacademic.com/meta...h6cfj5fs23c816

This wouldn't solve the issues with your family and this would make your subsequent life more difficult.

Understand that the OP asked about the US Navy, which is at present voluntary, so don't take the arguments raised in this thread too seriously for your situation. Conscription is a whole other can of worms.

[DasFapital]

I have a cousin who is a recruiter. Some of the strategies I have heard him talk about using to ensure potential recruits are basically straight up manipulation and bribery. I really wanted to join the military when I graduated high school and met with many dipshit recruiters. Nothing sadder than a uniformed tool in his early 30s referring to you as "bro". Anyway my family convinced me to wait a while and think about it. Eventually, after seeing how the Afghan war fucked up some people I knew and just becoming more alienated from the bro culture in general I changed my mind.