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A bourgeois government is a bourgeois government. Still...thoughts? I'm not sure what to make of this. I suppose we can say goodbye to the "secular charter" for now, at least...
"I'm a pessimist because of intelligence, but an optimist because of will." - Antonio Gramsci
"If he did advocate revolutionary change, such advocacy could not, of course, receive constitutional protection, since it would be by definition anti-constitutional."
- J.A. MacGuigan in Roach v. Canada, 1994
I'm thinking it's maybe the best(ish) outcome. Glad QS picked up another seat. haven't had a chance to look at details of poll results or read any substantive commentaries from Quebec.
They're sovereigntist social democrats, right? I suppose it could be worse.
"I'm a pessimist because of intelligence, but an optimist because of will." - Antonio Gramsci
"If he did advocate revolutionary change, such advocacy could not, of course, receive constitutional protection, since it would be by definition anti-constitutional."
- J.A. MacGuigan in Roach v. Canada, 1994
Mr Couillards will surely push the students in an other strike, since he wishes to raise tuition fees and has taken position for austerity. It will be an other massive mobilisation against the Liberal party in Quebec.
The Liberals in Canada are as bad as the Tories. I have even less patience for the Quebec nationalists, than I do for the Liberals. I'm critical of the NDP, but I support the NDP Socialist Caucus on an entryist viewpoint. Though the liberal end of the NDP looks no different than the Liberal Party nowadays. Quebec independence is a bad idea for the working class of Canada as a whole. It breaks them up, and also creates a physical barrier between the Maritimes and the rest of Canada. Don't get me wrong, I'm all about self-determination. But autonomy is a much better idea than independence for Quebec. Unity amongst all Canadian workers is a far more important issue.
The election is shades of grey. It's probably the better outcome, but that's not saying much at all.
Last edited by M-L-C-F; 9th April 2014 at 21:04. Reason: Fixing.
It is true that liberty is precious; so precious that it must be carefully rationed. - Vladimir Lenin
Condemn me, it does not matter: history will absolve me. - Fidel Castro
Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win. WORKERS OF THE WORLD, UNITE! - Karl Marx
To be fair, Marois also said she would raise tuition. I'm not so sure the students would have been happier with her. Even less so, in fact. That said, you're still right about that.
"I'm a pessimist because of intelligence, but an optimist because of will." - Antonio Gramsci
"If he did advocate revolutionary change, such advocacy could not, of course, receive constitutional protection, since it would be by definition anti-constitutional."
- J.A. MacGuigan in Roach v. Canada, 1994
The NDP dropped the use of the term socialist a while ago now...In any case, I agree it's not saying much...Quebecois nationalism is no substitute for solidarity among workers in Canada and across the globe, and putting up more barriers to that would only be a step backwards, but the Liberals and their corruption is not a step in the right direction either.
"I'm a pessimist because of intelligence, but an optimist because of will." - Antonio Gramsci
"If he did advocate revolutionary change, such advocacy could not, of course, receive constitutional protection, since it would be by definition anti-constitutional."
- J.A. MacGuigan in Roach v. Canada, 1994
I know, but the Socialist Caucus hasn't gone away. They were pretty pissed about that. I've talked to a few Socialists from Windsor, Toronto, and Edmonton about it.
It is true that liberty is precious; so precious that it must be carefully rationed. - Vladimir Lenin
Condemn me, it does not matter: history will absolve me. - Fidel Castro
Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win. WORKERS OF THE WORLD, UNITE! - Karl Marx
Quebec is a bit different in that regard - the Parti libéral du Québec aren't just "like" Conservatives - it's full of former Federal Tories from the PC days, notably Jean Charest who was a minister and even deputy PM under Brian Mulroney (Canada's answer to Ronald Reagan).
While I'll shed no tears over Marois' loss, let's be clear - it's been less than two years since the PLQ passed a law outlawing demonstrations, making it illegal for student unions to strike, illegal for student leaders to advocate striking or call for demos, etc., presided over mass arrests and police riots, and called for turning northern Quebec into "Northern Alberta Lite". I think it says more about the massive demobilization and defeat than it does about rejection of the secular charter.Originally Posted by blake 3:17
Ugh. "I'm all for self-determination . . . except when it comes to succeeding from my bourgeoisie."
Uh . . . no. For one, what "unity" is possible among Canadian workers on terms that mean Quebec's better organized, more militant movement is subjugated to the broader Canadian labour movement, and thereby tied to the utterly useless NDP?
Would you put forward the same (frankly, chauvinist) position vis-a-vis sovereignty for First Nations?
Second, speaking as a Maritimer - fuck Canada, and I'd love to be cut off from Toronto, Fort Mac, and all that other shit past Montreal.
The life we have conferred upon these objects confronts us as something hostile and alien.
Formerly Virgin Molotov Cocktail (11/10/2004 - 21/08/2013)
Good point.
Well, for one, they could try to do more to progress the labour movement as a whole. Not just focusing on themselves. Create more communication and action amongst the whole proletariat, pushing it to the left. As for the First Nations, ideally, they should be treated as autonomous republics within a socialist republican Canada. Same goes with Quebec, imho.
I'm not discounting anything about Quebec either. I just think they should take a leadership role as equals, with the rest of Canada. Working for something more.
Last edited by M-L-C-F; 10th April 2014 at 00:00. Reason: Fixing.
It is true that liberty is precious; so precious that it must be carefully rationed. - Vladimir Lenin
Condemn me, it does not matter: history will absolve me. - Fidel Castro
Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win. WORKERS OF THE WORLD, UNITE! - Karl Marx
Ugh, I am so irritated with everyone's idiot theories about the election. The most common theory on the anglo left in Québec is that there was an outpouring of working class outrage about the Charter and the PQ's blatant pandering to retrograde xenophobes. But there is basically no evidence this happened; the sort of people who would have shown up to vote against the Charter live in safe liberal ridings. The most common francophone theory, the "effet PKP"...
...also doesn't make any sense, because you have to assume that there is a large bloc of PQ voters who oppose independence, and who would vote for the liberals in protest of the domination of politics by corrupt business people. Québec voters are batfuck nuts, but they're not that crazy. The PQ started doing badly as soon as the election started and PKP had no effect on the trend, as pointed out by the "left intellectual" running against him for the leadership of the PQ (http://jflisee.org/dechiffrer-lelect...s-impressions/).
The story is probably pretty simple: the business community reverted from their 2012 position of supporting the PQ to establish social peace, and went back to supporting the PLQ has they have, virtually without pause, since Duplessis.
The people who think it's good that the liberals got elected are really confused. As mentioned it's going to be an incredibly reactionary government, and we're looking at a best case scenario where the PQ tries to re-reinvent itself as a social democratic party that has seen the errors of its ways, and gets elected again four years from now. That's a terrible outcome, but the plausible alternatives are worse.
Yeah, I don't think it was good that the Liberals got elected. Sorry if I gave that impression. Sure, it doesn't make any sense that people would vote Liberal in protest of the domination of politics by corrupt businesspeople. However, the article also implied that students "quietly" voted Liberal in protest of Marois saying she would raise tuition, which doesn't make any more sense, either.
From a class-conscious perspective, voting for either of them doesn't make sense. What we're talking about here, however, is not an electorate of class-conscious workers. It's understandable, then, to want to console ourselves by believing the results were a rejection of xenophobia. That doesn't seem to be the case in light of what Jake said. The interests of the business community are clear, but it's important to understand exactly how far removed Quebec voters are from class-consciousness, given where they put their support.
"I'm a pessimist because of intelligence, but an optimist because of will." - Antonio Gramsci
"If he did advocate revolutionary change, such advocacy could not, of course, receive constitutional protection, since it would be by definition anti-constitutional."
- J.A. MacGuigan in Roach v. Canada, 1994
I don't think anyone here would say them being elected was good. I wasn't either, just merely stating my viewpoint on Quebec.
It is true that liberty is precious; so precious that it must be carefully rationed. - Vladimir Lenin
Condemn me, it does not matter: history will absolve me. - Fidel Castro
Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win. WORKERS OF THE WORLD, UNITE! - Karl Marx
The PQ were elected against the Liberals, and the Liberals were elected against the PQ...
It was remarkable how fast and hard the PQ were in swerving to the right. They had no economic alternative. All they had was was a xenophobic project.
QS has tensions within it, but in terms of it as a social democratic project, it's pretty radical: http://www.quebecsolidaire.net/wp-co...urteEN_WEB.pdf
Daria Khadir is rad. That's maybe a point in QS's favour?
The life we have conferred upon these objects confronts us as something hostile and alien.
Formerly Virgin Molotov Cocktail (11/10/2004 - 21/08/2013)
I'd likely join QS if I were there. The program is a good one.
This interactive map might be some use to people really interested: http://www.cbc.ca/elections/quebecvotes2014/ It gives the percentages of the votes in ridings.
There's been a not insignificant number of leftists outside the urban centres. When the PDS -- the former NDP Quebec and forerunner to QS -- was formed, they were pretty conscious of keeping up with friends in smaller towns. To do otherwise is to shoot yourself in the foot.
Ontario? hahaha