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Conspiracy theories
Not sure if this is a right place to post this question but, anyone here believe in conspiracy theories (like the one-world totalitarian govt, elitist families controlling the economy, etc.)? If so, do you think they're happening right now, and also, how come not many people are aware of them?
I don't think you'll find many people here into "conspiracy theories" - I would say that most people who believe in something like the illuminati have correctly identified that there is something wrong with the world, but then come to the incorrect conclusion that it's a "conspiracy" rather than capitalism is itself a fucked up system and that's what's really wrong with the world.
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Nothing besides the really obvious almost non-theory rich folk rule indirectly.
When I was like 12, I thought the government was hiding aliens in Area 51, though.
Sometimes I gotta get down with my red self
"Communism deprives no man of the power to appropriate the products of society; all that it does is to deprive him of the power to subjugate the labor of others by means of such appropriations." - Karl Marx, The Communist Manifesto
Just like Quail said. Just want to add a link (but I still can't). Search for 'overthrowing the illuminati' on google and click the first hit.
It is a pamphlet about the whole idiocracy of the illuminati-conspiracy.
Here you go;
https://libcom.org/library/how-overthrow-illuminati
A very good and essential piece indeed.
The mind is its own place, and in itself Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven. What matter where, if I be still the same, And what I should be, all but less than he Whom thunder hath made greater?
Here at least We shall be free
it is almost certain that there are conspiracies happening right now. The most basic problem is that we won't know about it for sure, until either someone from the government admits the conspiracy exists, or unless your holding concrete evidence of conspiracy (i.e. Voice recording or papers etc.). usually, it's going to be both for it to stick in the public record.
it is therefore best just to 'let it go' as conspiracies are just part of the structure of the ruling class and in practice, we can do very little about it- [unless, for example, it is something low-level and so illegal that media exposure can get authorities higher up to do something about it.]
Who didn't believe that when they were 12? I sure did, and I completely agree with Quail. I used to believe in several conspiracy theories years ago, and I belive there is truth to some of them, like with the 9/11 conspiracy theories, I see it as a false flag attack, I'd probaly make a better post if I wasn't so stoned
i've usually gone by Alan Moore's words:
'Yes, there is a conspiracy, indeed there are a great number of conspiracies, all tripping each other up… the main thing that I learned about conspiracy theories is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in the conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic. The truth is, that it is not the Jewish banking conspiracy, or the grey aliens, or the twelve-foot reptiloids from another dimension that are in control, the truth is far more frightening; no-one is in control, the world is rudderless.'
I would say the closest thing to a conspiracy theory that I subscribe to is that I have a gut feeling (though I admit there is no strong evidence for this) that the US government was aware that both Pearl Harbor and 9/11 were going to happen and did nothing to stop them in order to get the masses in the US to support large scale military responses.
I think people in the US are more anti-war than they are given credit for. It takes dead Americans to motivate them to commit troops to be put in harms way. Of course, having a volunteer army makes this a lot less of an issue, so I think in many cases this isn't true. Take for instance with Reagan in South America.
I think that's the money quote right there, Quail. That pretty much sums up nearly all that Bilderberg, Illuminati, and 9/11 inside job stuff.
If it`s not taught in schools or if the government doesn`t say it`s true then it is not true. That`s how things more or less work.
Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
-Napoleon Bonaparte
I think the main issue with most contemporary conspiracy theories - in a very general and crude way - is that in their assumptions and form they tend to be counter to building class consiousness.
Usually they imply that most people are passive sheep, aside from the select few enlightened who know the truth. The emphasize mass powerlessness in the face of shaddowy manipulators, not class empowerment and self-organization and militancy.
This is why they tend to work better for right wingers and demagauges generally: listen to me and do what I say, I'm the only one who knows the depths of the conspiracy!!!
I always thought was was sort of established to be true? Just recently I recall watching a talk by Howard Zinn where he cited some evidence that something like this was true.
Not sure if this is considered a conspiray, but I may or may not know of a secret weapons program at us airbases. Its SAP and hidden from most other military personneland is black budgeted. I am going to assume that there are other programs besides this.
The most powerful conspiracies I see in America is the conspiracy of denial and the conspiracy of silence in most american people, these 2 conspiracies are the main cause of why the communist parties of USA are so weak and why most americans keep voting for the democratic party and the republican party in every elections !!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoidan...s_and_symptoms
Hell man *conspiracy of denial* and conspiracy of silence*, that's one of the worst things I hate about the whole United States, that the USA is almost at the edge of an economic apocalypse, in the middle of an inflationary meltdown, the country is going down. The roads, highways interstate highways are full of cracks and holes, bridges are falling. The Obamacare is a capitalist neoliberalism, fascist scam, Republicans are hissing and motivating the White House and US government into invading Venezuela and Russia. Food and gas prices are going up every day, and yet most people in America we see every day at supermarkets, at banks and in public places are totally silent, mute, and living in a conspiracy of silence and in a conspiracy of denial. What a weird nation with avoidant personality disorders.
From my own point of view, the most powerful conspiracy I see in America is the conspiracy of denial and the conspiracy of silence by every single US citizen. I think all americans suffer from avoidant personality disorders (The mental disorder that promotes and forces all americans into living in a permanent mental state of conspiracy of denying the USA reality and in a conspiracy of negating the USA reality:
Here is a short definition and signs of the avoidant personality disorder, a disorder suffered by most americans which leads them to live in a conspiracy of denial and in a conspiracy of being silent all the time (even in the middle of the worst economic and social crisis):
People with avoidant personality disorder are preoccupied with their own shortcomings and form relationships with others only if they believe they will not be rejected. Loss and rejection are so painful that these individuals will choose to be lonely rather than risk trying to connect with others. They often view themselves with contempt, while showing an increased inability to identify traits within themselves which are generally considered as positive within their societies. Childhood emotional neglect—in particular, the rejection of a child by one or both parents—has been associated with an increased risk for the development of AvPD, as well as rejection by peers.
Hypersensitivity to rejection/criticism
Self-imposed social isolation
Extreme shyness or anxiety in social situations, though the person feels a strong desire for close relationships
Avoids physical contact because it has been associated with an unpleasant or painful stimulus
Feelings of inadequacy
Severe low self-esteem
Self-loathing
Mistrust of others
Emotional distancing related to intimacy
Highly self-conscious
Self-critical about their problems relating to others
Problems in occupational functioning
Lonely self-perception, although others may find the relationship with them meaningful
Feeling inferior to others
In some extreme cases, agoraphobia (Americans hate open spaces, and love hiding in their SUVs, and caves (houses)
Uses fantasy as a form of escapism and to interrupt painful thoughts
.
"Dad, how many pounds of potatoes does an american have to eat before he dies." -Matt Dillon, in a movie
^ there's no mystery that many diagnosable psychological 'defects' are a result of the socioeconomic order; the ideological state apparatus which keeps people not just in a state of denial but also passive and functional within their socioeconomic position.
althusser said it (ideological state apparatus), foucault's main body of work was built around this idea (madness and civilization), chomsky said it less eloquently (manufacturing consent), marx was one of the first to hypothesize it (alienation). there are a wealth of other valuable texts and studies on the matter.
my main criticism of what you said would be that you didn't point out that the kind of personality disorders found in the DSM criteria are actually discourses that are a part of the ideological state apparatus itself and are as much about controlling people as cops and cameras are.
the psychology of individuals is largely socially symptomatic - there have been hugely profitable industries that have been built around containing these people in some way, or at least strategically marginalizing them (if they can't function as labourers, put them on welfare or in psychiatric wards, feed them copious drugs which make pharm companies a lot of money, for example).
on the original point, there is no conspiracy. perhaps certain strategies and organizational groups/methodologies are largely hidden (wealthy international people of influence meeting up at certain events to chat business, get drunk and play stupid old rituals), but the social processes behind capitalism and its hugely negative social symptoms are as clear as day after even a simple objective analysis. sometimes it is easier to construct a narrative so 'out-there' that it perhaps allows people to escape from reality/deny it, even though the right answer is in many cases the most obvious one - there are no trick-questions when it comes to the capitalist social order, its right there in front of us (or over/around us).
here's a conspiracy for conspiracy types to have a think on: perhaps conspiracy theories were constructed by right-wing polemicists and political strategists to distract working people from their immediate conditions? oh, and they all had green, scaly skin as well.
I'm the Laird of the land, I'm hot like Pol Pot.'A true white liberal.' - Sword and Shield (on me)
'i am a communism fer a long years.' - twenty percent tip
FKA Mahmoud Ahmerdinnerjacket
SWAG1
Dude, as someone who has AvPD (although that very phrase is contentious) and has extensively researched personality disorders, I can tell you that they cannot be extended to entire populations. It is very dangerous to individuals who legitimately suffer with these kinds of problems to generalise them so. I could go on and on explaining it but I haven't the time or energy, and you haven't the experience to fully comprehend.
Please don't do it.
he does have a point about the socio-economic elements behind certain disorders, but he just worded it wrongly.
i say this as bipolar with narcissistic personality disorder.
I'm the Laird of the land, I'm hot like Pol Pot.'A true white liberal.' - Sword and Shield (on me)
'i am a communism fer a long years.' - twenty percent tip
FKA Mahmoud Ahmerdinnerjacket
SWAG
Proven conspiracies:
MKULTRA, Project Mockingbird, Project Midnight Climax, Iran/Contra, Operation Paperclip, Tuskegee Syphilis study, hundreds of plots to install right wing governments (Chile, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Iran, Cuba)… The list goes on.
Bullshit theories that are completely false:
The Illuminati, Jewish stuff, everything right wing libertarian extremists say, lizard people, moon landing fake, etc…
Here's the thing. Nobody knows what the fuck goes on in the government. They participate in conspiracies every single day. Why is that even shocking to people? Just don't believe in insane stupid shit and you'll be ok.
One thing I've been thinking about recently is that people debating with conspiracy theorists have a little catch-22 that might be a little unfair, even if the whole theory is bullshit.
Basically, people will say something to the effect of, "This conspiracy would have to involve so many people that it's inevitable that mistakes would be made that would expose it." When such supposed "mistakes" are pointed out by the conspiracist, they are told, "Sure, a huge global conspiracy is just going to spill the beans on its own project."
Not that this has any bearing on whether or not the Illuminatus conspiracy theorist is correct or not - they aren't - but it's something I've noticed as a tendency in these discussions. You should challenge the conspiracist's assumptions, not respond with further assumptions.
Last edited by synthesis; 10th April 2014 at 21:20. Reason: shortened
"to become a philosopher, start by walking very slowly"
This is why if such conspiracies existed in which they are airtight on leaks, it would be pointless to even care about them.
If the world's markets were controlled by lizard men from Planet X, and it is impossible to confirm such a conspiracy, then its pointless to even bother caring about it. Hence why I think conspiratists are stupid.
