Difficult Questions/Arguments

[RA89]

What personally have been the most difficult arguments/questions put forward to you by Capitalists?

What were your answers (if you had any)?

[Bala Perdida]

How do we build support for our ideas? Education could help, propaganda only goes so far. It's just difficult to change someone's mind these days in a system that acts so aggressively against us.

[tuwix]

What personally have been the most difficult arguments/questions put forward to you by Capitalists?

What were your answers (if you had any)?

The most difficult argument put forward to the leftists I've ever seen was: "If there is to be an equality, then there must be an equality in access to sex."

And whatever you'd answer it would be bad. It's just trap of present bourgeois morality...

[RA89]

The most difficult argument put forward to the leftists I've ever seen was: "If there is to be an equality, then there must be an equality in access to sex."

And whatever you'd answer it would be bad. It's just trap of present bourgeois morality...

Isn't that like saying everybody should have equality to height or something? As people are born with different genetics and have different personalities- the factors in sexual attraction.

& since sex requires consent from 2 parties, the only way to enforce that would be to take away consent from one party, in which case it becomes something like "I should be free to own as many slaves as I want" right?

[Comrade #138672]

The most difficult argument put forward to the leftists I've ever seen was: "If there is to be an equality, then there must be an equality in access to sex."

And whatever you'd answer it would be bad. It's just trap of present bourgeois morality...

Define "access to sex".

[tuwix]

Isn't that like saying everybody should have equality to height or something? As people are born with different genetics and have different personalities- the factors in sexual attraction.

Then you're vulnerable to counter-argument that equality isn't possible generally and it'just utopia. The logical response is that we're for material equality only that means a property's lack and free access to products and services. And there would be considerations about sexual services. If you'll ban them, you're authoritarian. If not, then you'll be asked how to regularize them without money?

& since sex requires consent from 2 parties, the only way to enforce that would be to take away consent from one party, in which case it becomes something like "I should be free to own as many slaves as I want" right?

Right, but you're still vulnerable to counter-argument that equality isn't possible generally and so on. As I've said, there is no good answer to such questions...

[BIXX]

The most difficult argument put forward to the leftists I've ever seen was: "If there is to be an equality, then there must be an equality in access to sex."



And whatever you'd answer it would be bad. It's just trap of present bourgeois morality...

What the fuck...

I don't know. My anarchism means that the individual should do what they can to benefit themselves the most (thusly you it isn't recommended create hierarchies because of the limitations they put on you).

So therefore, the more sexually attractive people would get laid more. It has nothing to do with equality.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

The thing is, communism isn't about some abstract equality. In the transitional period, the rule is "to each according to his contribution", and there is no equality. In the communist society, the rule is "to each according to his need", and again, there is no equality. "Equal access to sex" is nuttery of the worst sort.

And sexual services would presumably be regulated just as other services are; why would there be a difference between a worker spending socially-useful labour time painting someone's house, and a worker spending socially-useful labour time participating in sex?

[#FF0000]

I cannot fathom how sex work could possibly exist in a communist society

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I cannot fathom how sex work could possibly exist in a communist society

Presumably the person in question would provide sexual services to people for free - something like generalised polyamory with no romantic component and no commitment on either part.

In the transitional period, pretty much that, and it would count as socially-useful labour time for purposes of accounting etc.

[#FF0000]

How is that, in any way, different than just having sex?

[Sentinel]

Prostitution really is connected to inequality, in the modern context: capitalism. If everyone had exactly the same social status and wealth, combined with a guarantee of security, obviously nobody would have to sell their sexuality but could simply only give it for free to anyone they desire.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

How is that, in any way, different than just having sex?

It isn't. It's different from sex in a romantic relationship, or a long-term fuck-buddy relationship, in the sense that the prostitute would accept a wider variety of partners, and the sex would take place in a semi-formal context (i.e. it wouldn't consist of chance encounters - presumably one would make an appointment and so on).

It's the same thing, I think, as the difference between fixing your friends' computers and "working" as a computer repairman in the communist society.

[Redistribute the Rep]

I cannot fathom how sex work could possibly exist in a communist society

Of course it wouldn't exist, work (as defined in the context of a capitalist society) of any type will cease to exist. Sex work is no different.

[Lowtech]

what usually baffles me is apt use of the chewbacca defense. also ad nauseam use of anecdotal evidence, usually pulled from their limited personal experience and arrogant bias.

also they may totally side step your argument. for example, i often use the term artificial scarcity, and the common response to me is that "scarcity is not artificial." at first i wasn't sure how to react, then i realized that they were willfully misunderstanding the phrase. i was not saying "scarcity IS artificial," i am referring to an altogether separate tangible phenomena, artificial scarcity.

they want you to reduce your arguments into refuting their anecdotes, rather than talking economics or systems. don't be afraid to refocus the conversation.

i have noticed that commonly (which in my case has been EVERY advocate of capitalism i have conversed with) they do not have any grasp of actual economic theory let alone an informed understanding of value. this is why they say nonsense like the rich "earn" their wealth or that wealth is "produced." wealth is not produced, it is derived and the rich do not earn anything because they do not produce value.

they want us to argue with them through the paradigm of market economics and bogus "subjective" value. however things like supply and demand, capital, etc are market dynamics, meaning they exist only in market environments, they are not axioms of economics.

the better you understand economics, the better you can argue it with others.

[ckaihatsu]

I cannot fathom how sex work could possibly exist in a communist society

Of course it wouldn't exist, work (as defined in the context of a capitalist society) of any type will cease to exist. Sex work is no different.

Would *favors* cease to exist in a communist society -- as in, 'I have no personal inclination to do this, but since you are in a pinch and I'm nearby, I'll go ahead and do this for you as long as you keep in mind that you owe-me-one.'

If favors would continue to exist then so would *sexual* favors.... (Speaking purely theoretically here, of course.) (grin)

[Psycho P and the Freight Train]

It isn't. It's different from sex in a romantic relationship, or a long-term fuck-buddy relationship, in the sense that the prostitute would accept a wider variety of partners, and the sex would take place in a semi-formal context (i.e. it wouldn't consist of chance encounters - presumably one would make an appointment and so on).

It's the same thing, I think, as the difference between fixing your friends' computers and "working" as a computer repairman in the communist society.

Lol, Vincent, I usually agree with your posts, but….what dude?

You are literally just describing casual sex. What is the difference between casual sex with multiple people and….uhh……casual sex with multiple people? It is prostitution under a capitalist system because there is money exchanged, and generally many prostitutes are forced into it due to poverty. But in a communist society there is A) No money and B) No poverty. So what are you even getting at? haha

[Slavic]

It would just be casual sex. There, difficult question answered.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I'm not describing any sort of casual sex, but casual sex-as-a-service. Like I said, the distinction between this sort of casual sex and the more common kind is the same as the distinction between plumbing organised as a service (which would still exist in the communist society, with no monetary compensation of course), and fixing the pipes at a friend's apartment.

I don't think we can predict what people would want in the communist society. Why wouldn't someone want to participate in casual sex as a service?

[Geiseric]

"Why do you guys support NAMBLA?" Answer: "Because we're fucking weird." <== I answered for the spartacist leagues members.