"Ukraine is a war between two predators, there are no lesser evils"

[Dagoth Ur]

Yeah because a handful of pimple-faced Stalin lovers calling for the defense of Russia is really going to shift power to the hands of the working class....

Yeah because anything that is happening in Ukraine right now will shift power to the hands of the working class. We are not involved. This is the people of Ukraine getting help from Russia who is certainly not doing it out of the warmness of their hearts versus an American coup designed to get NATO situated in a strategic location against Russia. This is not a defense of Russia this a monkey wrench in American hegemony (ie the much more massive threat at the moment).

Although tell me more about how Right Sector and Svoboda aren't running the streets of Kiev right now.

Yes, because Russia doesn't have fascists and their sympathizers making policy and killing people with impunity.

Russia, just like every other current European power, has zero fascists at the policy-making level. Russia is neoliberal just like the rest of the world they just are not doing it American style. And where is Russia killing people with impunity? Crimea was bloodless and Russia has explicitly said it will NOT be going into Eastern Ukraine.

Revleft's Russophobia keeps on chugging. But let's see whose next in line to call me an apologist for the Kremlin.

[tallguy]

Lesser evils is bullshit. There is who is advantageous to support and those who are not. However big surprise that RevLeft clings to Russophobia in the face of literal fascists on the streets of Kiev being called a "National Guard".

Yeah, whether it is called "lesser evils", "greater good", etc is all just verbiage. The Crimean people have simply made the optimum rational choice within limiting constraints. If I had been a Crimean with the same constraints, I would have likely made the same choice.

[Dagoth Ur]

Crimea was a special case too as Khrushchev (a Ukrainian) gave it away to Ukraine for a totally undefined reason in the late 50's. It was never a part of Ukraine.

[The Idler]

Yeah, whether it is called "lesser evils", "greater good", etc is all just verbiage. The Crimean people have simply made the optimum rational choice within limiting constraints. If I had been a Crimean with the same constraints, I would have likely made the same choice.

How about putting revolutionary socialism on the agenda?

[synthesis]

The Crimean people have simply made the optimum rational choice within limiting constraints. If I had been a Crimean with the same constraints, I would have likely made the same choice.

I think this says a lot about your commitment to revolutionary politics.

Oh, the world revolution? You mean that thing that's hundreds of years off in the horizon and may never actually happen? Why would we organize our politics around that?

That's what you sound like.

[Lensky]

I think so too, yes. The only pertinent question is whether they can manage to go quietly into the night or, instead, go down with all guns blazing. One would hope for the former, but I suspect the latter is more likely.

Imperialist nations have never willingly surrendered without massive mobilizations in their interior and civil unrest. The ideological hegemony which the bourgeois holds in the United States needs to be ridiculed, delegitimized, and attacked. This is a battle that can be won.

[Alexios]

Yeah because anything that is happening in Ukraine right now will shift power to the hands of the working class. We are not involved. This is the people of Ukraine getting help from Russia who is certainly not doing it out of the warmness of their hearts versus an American coup designed to get NATO situated in a strategic location against Russia. This is not a defense of Russia this a monkey wrench in American hegemony (ie the much more massive threat at the moment).

Although tell me more about how Right Sector and Svoboda aren't running the streets of Kiev right now.

In one post you say that you don't think we should be involved in the conflict while at the same time saying that supporting Russia is the best thing to do at the moment. Stop contradicting yourself.

[Dagoth Ur]

I didn't say we shouldn't be involved but that we aren't involved. The only communist entity on the ground is the KPU and they've barely done anything except hang out in Kiev's bullshit parliament. In a lot of situations, like Libya and Syria, we don't have a communist horse in the race and have to defer to the judgment of local communists.

[piet11111]

I came into this thread hoping for news

[Quail]

Okay, can we keep this thread on topic? The false quote was clearly a parody given the comment "That's what you sound like" underneath it, so I don't really see a problem. Anyone who is following the thread should know that tallguy didn't actually say that. I'm going to trash the off-topic stuff and issue a general verbal warning to stay on topic.