What's holding communism back?

[liberlict]

Being able to understand communism requires a degree of abstract reasoning.

Do you think this is a credit to communism?

[#FF0000]

Being able to understand communism requires a degree of abstract reasoning. People have a hard time conceptualizing a fundamentally different system, especially when they've been taught that "socialism" is just higher taxes and Fox News tells them that knowledge and information are all evil communist conspiracies.

In my experience, communists do hella little to make it any easier. And it can be made easier. It's just that there are a lot of communists who 1) don't know as much as they think they do or 2) Are hella academic and love obsfuscation

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

In my experience, communists do hella little to make it any easier. And it can be made easier. It's just that there are a lot of communists who 1) don't know as much as they think they do or 2) Are hella academic and love obsfuscation

or 3) They just really love to make themselves seem smart.

No, I'm serious. The moronic, pointless arguments over sects and semantics is one of the greatest hindrances to the socialist movement, at least as great as bourgeoisie opposition. Being condescending to the proletariat, and treating the proletariat like they're ignorant children is not only counterproductive, it's also just plain assholish behavior.

[#FF0000]

or 3) They just really love to make themselves seem smart.

That's what obfuscation is for you big dumbhead!!!!!!!!!!

EDIT: Actually I think the actual biggest problem (at least in the US and UK) is the weakening of the labor movement. I don't know about Europe in general but it's practically nonexistant in the US. Without a movement, all you have are these idiot grad students trying really, really hard to make themselves relevant but no way of doing anything useful.

[Fourth Internationalist]

Do you think this is a credit to communism?

I think perhaps he meant something different than abstract reasoning, based on what he said immediately after that statement. More like 'critical thinking' or some other word or phrase to describe the process of getting beyond bourgeois propaganda.

[TC]

Communism has a lot of appeal. It's in the working class's interest. Most of the world work for capitalists in some way. But there is little communist agitation. What's happening? I'm not a communist but I would support communism over a lot of the parties that are advancing, like in Ukraine.

Its not enough for something to be in people's best interests for it to happen. They must also recognize it as beneficial and have the capability to implement it, and the wherewithal to do so. Right now that capacity and wherewithal is just absent.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Short answer: the fact of capital relations and of capitalist political rule.

A jet plane has a lot going for it in terms of flight, but for it to fly a whole series of conditions have to be in place: is everything working, is there fuel, is there a crew, does the crew know where it's going... But for a grounded plane to sit on the ground, all it needs to do is nothing due to the fact of gravity.

Since the last notorious plane crashed and burned... it then becomes hard to convince people that flight is possible with descriptions of areodynamic theory alone.

[Baseball]

Short answer: the fact of capital relations and of capitalist political rule.

A jet plane has a lot going for it in terms of flight, but for it to fly a whole series of conditions have to be in place: is everything working, is there fuel, is there a crew, does the crew know where it's going... But for a grounded plane to sit on the ground, all it needs to do is nothing due to the fact of gravity.

Since the last notorious plane crashed and burned... it then becomes hard to convince people that flight is possible with descriptions of areodynamic theory alone.

This gives too much credit-- the claim is usually there is no need to explain aerodynamic theory. get the plane in the air and we'll figure out what keeps it up and going then.

[Jimmie Higgins]

This gives too much credit-- the claim is usually there is no need to explain aerodynamic theory. get the plane in the air and we'll figure out what keeps it up and going then.

Do you mean in my metaphore, marxist theory says: have a revolution and then figure it out? No, the proper parallel is that areodynamic theory is like marxist theory... it can tell us generally what could cause things to remain on the ground or what might cause something to lift off and maintain flight. But you, Baseball, just always insist that if marxist general theory can't explain daily workings of minuta, then it's invalid no matter how sound the general formulations are. As if you demand that areodynamics tells us where the pilots and flight-coordinators will take the plane, when it will take off and what they will serve for a meal!

[Lowtech]

Communism has a lot of appeal. It's in the working class's interest. Most of the world work for capitalists in some way. But there is little communist agitation. What's happening? I'm not a communist but I would support communism over a lot of the parties that are advancing, like in Ukraine.

Communism isn't held back. People are held back. If we look at third world countries we see peoples and regions assimilated into industrialized, market based economies, who are particularly victimized by deteriorated or non existent infrastructure that they had been made dependent on via assimilation. In antiquity, however many people were not yet assimilated into market and agricultural based societies and therefore not yet economically subjugated by owners of capital, so throughout history we see a progression of protomodern market based societies spread via assimilation. Interestingly, this is not limited to 3rd world countries, this is how capitalism has spread over the entire planet. These countries are simply the most horrible extreme of capitalist economics, and the prominent example of unfettered "free market" capitalism.

We are subjugated by the notion of "capital" as a material condition perpetuated by capitalism. Whereas capital only exists when the few deny the many of needed resources (artificial scarcity), so that the many may be contracted to work in exchange for those resources (economic subjugation). The circle is closed when goods are then sold back to the many at a profit so even more surplus value is derived. (Derived is a more accurate term than "produced" as capital owners, assets and "capital" do not produce value.) Almost every living person on the earth is now assimilated into societies dependent on infrastructure developed around the notion of capital.

Capitalism advocates an incorrect theory of value by having convinced much of the masses that economics is an arcane complex phenomena that is only understood by those who are wealthy. Value is not subjective. value is based on production cost and is quantifiable, intrinsic and objective.

Lastly, we are indoctrinated with an incorrect definition of economics. Money, markets, capital and the rich are not axioms of economics as they are not necessary to the processing of resources into the things we can directly consume. And are in fact, detrimental and in most cases a direct hindrance to that process.

[liberlict]

I agree generally. It's not an automatic or given responce to stimuli among people. The objective situation for capitalism, in my view, makes socialism a possibiliy; objective phenomena like wars or economic crisis make a wide-radicalization more possible IMO, but again, nothing is given. When working class movements have made the most headway IMO, generally there is a great deal of organizing and consiousness that exists before the point of crisis. But there are no fool-proof formulas when talking about the actions and thinking of huge swaths of people.

Again, this is more or less the default case under capitalism - especially right now. "Social gravity" is on the side of captialism. We, as workers, need to compete and sell our labor power... this is a fact under capitalism weather we have revolutionary consiousness, class consiousness, or think of ourselves as future bosses as soon as our ship comes in. I think induvidually people come to radical ideas all the time for subjective reasons, but right now there are no movements or organic organization to be able to have that go anywhere or do anything concrete. The speed and apparent "out of nowhereness" of things like Occupy, however I think show how quickly things can potentially change when some of that subterranian angst finds a focal point.

In short it's an uphill battle. For workers to get anywhere, a diverse and huge and (currently) underconfident group of people have to get together and organize and debate and figure out common ground all the while the ruling class is consiously trying to undermine these efforts (14 police departments attacking Occupy Oakland, attempts all around the country to reduce the ability to organize on the job, etc) and more fundamental pressures of the system itself on people. For capitalism to contine, workers just have to not create a revolution. People can hate capitalism, but if it remains, they still have to make rent - these pressures demoralize or make people think that meaningful change is impossible.

I've been thinking about this a bit lately. What you saying about social gravity is interesting. I can't help wondering whether the social gravity would be more on the side of Communism or at least tilted more to the left if it wasn't for the American presence in the world. Or even further, if it wasn't for America during the cold war. I wonder specifically if it wasn't for the threat, or perceived threat, of the United States if the USSR and China would have had the chance to build more authentically communist societies, as apposed to the repressive governments they built.

On the other hand, I wonder if advanced capitalists countries are precisely where a communist revolution is most likely to to succeed ..

[DoCt SPARTAN]

Looking back at history, Communism usually rises when a country is in very bad economic situations, and heavy amounts of social unrest. This allows for very radical ideas to spring with in the working classes. For example, Russia with the Tsar Nicholas, China with May 4th movement, Cuba with Batista, and Vietnam with French colonization....the list goes on.

That is whats happening currently with Greece, because of the poor economic situation.

Eventually another huge global economic crisis like the Great Depression in the 1930s, will come again. Then we will see many more communist nations again.

[liberlict]

Looking back at history, Communism usually rises when a country is in very bad economic situations, and heavy amounts of social unrest. This allows for very radical ideas to spring with in the working classes. For example, Russia with the Tsar Nicholas, China with May 4th movement, Cuba with Batista, and Vietnam with French colonization....the list goes on.

That is whats happening currently with Greece, because of the poor economic situation.

Eventually another huge global economic crisis like the Great Depression in the 1930s, will come again. Then we will see many more communist nations again.

Apparently Golden Dawn is the 3rd largest party in Greece now. That's the frightening thing, it's not necessarily the left that gets radicalized during depressions.

[DoCt SPARTAN]

Apparently Golden Dawn is the 3rd largest party in Greece now. That's the frightening thing, it's not necessarily the left that gets radicalized during depressions.

There will always be radical ideas on both ends of the spectrum....Thats kinda what I meant, sorry for my poor writing skills
-All the examples I listed from last post, had heavy nationalist counterparts

As for Greece though, I would say that the left-wing are still outnumbering the right-wingers.

Left wing has the KKE(communist party), SYRIZA, and other small factions

But any time a fascist party like Golden Dawn can get that powerful, that quickly it can turn into a very bad situation! ....Hitler was 55th member in the Nazi party, And then the membership skyrocketed due to the economic failure of the Weimer Republic after the Treaty of Versailles.