The Police

[Loony Le Fist]

But that's like saying that, if avocados could fly and shoot missiles, they would make decent interceptors. Well, sure. But that misses the point.

That's quite the hyperbole. But amusing.

The comparison I was making is between two types of defense forces--one that is empowered by the state to enforce the law, protect property, and limit civil disorder. The other empowered and chosen amongst the people themselves to ensure that people are truly kept safe in their homes. It is quite a stretch to introduce that false comparison to flying avocadoes that shoot missles. I wasn't that far off.

A workers' militia, not separate from the general population, would not be anything like the police. I think many people make the mistake that police work would remain as it is, only instead of officers we would have people's officers, instead of prisons people's prisons, etc. And that everyone would have to be a policeman of the usual type, which sounds like a bureaucratic nightmare more than a free society.

I think a better analogy would be community watch groups, or even the dreaded CheKa (a fundamentally misunderstood organ, I think).

Police work obviously cannot remain the same. And when did I say everyone is going to be a police officer of the usual type--let alone make everyone police?

Have you ever thought of trying to find common ground with people, instead of seeing the differences all the time? I understand we are jaded as leftists, but we are basically on the same team here. We all are in this fight together. Constantly splitting hairs over terminology and fighting amongst ourselves over minutiae doesn't help further this cause.

[Ele'ill]

I don't think we are all on the same team or same side. I think that's a myth.

[Loony Le Fist]

I don't think we are all on the same team or same side. I think that's a myth.

You're right of course--in the general sense. But I meant it in the context of the back and forth I was having with Criminalize Heterosexuality.

[#FF0000]

Well, when police riot against leftists, that's not the kind of civil disobedience I can get behind. Or also when fascists do it.

I'm not sure I can get behind giving support to the state for putting down any political dissidents. Anti-fascism is our job -- not the state's. If they can put down fascists they can put us down too.

[Jimmie Higgins]

How do you guys feel about the functional role of the police in your everyday lives?

i generally try and avoid them when I can. They are a heavy presence and have lots of gear and toys in Oakland (a mobile tower, tanks, new SUVs to replace all the cars, and the sheriff has drones) but I am generally not hassled on account of being light skinned and in my 30s.

I'm wondering because since I've been here I've learned a lot about how minorities might see these kind of powers.

Where I live, there is a lot of vandalism of public property, phone boxes smashed, any kind of glass wont last a week. All the bus stations are built around polycarbonate-safe glass because that's the only way to stop them being destroyed.

My old reaction to this was scornful ... but since I've been here I've come to understand how these 'symbols', bus stations or whatever, could be seen to be symbols of oppression by disempowered classes. So now when I see vandalism I look at it in a different context.

eh, there's vandalism, some cars broken into and mug goings here. In the most general sense I think that most of the non gang vandalism and some of the random violence is due to basic alienation, but I don't have a view of these acts generally being something symbolic or consciously an opposition to oppression.

So I was wondering how the revolutionary-left see the police? Do you view them as oppressive, or do they have some valid role to play in the theater of history at the moment?

yes they have a role to play: managing the masses both on a daily street sort of level and in terms of political repression of protests and strikes and movements. So it's a bad role in my view.

In terms of "public safety" from street crime, petty theft and random violence... They are essentially useless. Police are a reactive force at best... "Crime prevention" or patrols are a lot of b.s.

While I don't personally get harassed on the streets (I have been harassed and detained because of civil disobedience, and illegally detained coz repression, in "political life") I see police harassing people for fuck all daily (mostly around the subway). Cops shot a homeless guy for peeing on a fence a couple blocks from my house (he lived) they killed oscar grant at the subway station I use and a year later they killed a homeless guy who was having a fit or breakdown. They don't help anything except gentrification and political repression.

Basically I'm curious what you do when crime interferes with you life, if it does, and how you put it in context.

i've been mugged at gun point. It sucks. Cops can't do anything and wouldn't have done anything if I called them about it. I would personally only report a theft if I had to - like if I had a car and had to report damage for insurance reasons. But otherwise I would not call the cops for random theft, they probably wouldn't do anything and I've heard too many stories from people who were wrongly harassed or arrested for "fitting the description".

[Loony Le Fist]

I'm not sure I can get behind giving support to the state for putting down any political dissidents. Anti-fascism is our job -- not the state's. If they can put down fascists they can put us down too.

I agree. So when did I claim I wanted the state doing this? I was talking about my personal views.

[Naroc]

I have very mixed feelings about the police. Of course, they ensure the maintaining of our current system and are "working for our enemys". Not to mention cop-violence against (at the beginning) peaceful protesters, as i've seen it a lot of times before. If i'd follow that logic i'd actually have to hate them.

On the other sides i have always in mind that they're just people who are doing their jobs to feed their families. I know that there are some of them who knowingly abuse their power, but i don't think that those guys are the majority. And yeah, there's no doubt that they are useful in some situations, like protecting citizens from criminals etc. That's why i don't know how i should feel about them. Personally i think phrases like A.C.A.B are just stupid, just because you don't like a persons job, it's not a reason to hate him/her.
I try to avoid thinking in prejudices when i'm facing cops, although sometimes it's kind of hard.

[Das war einmal]

I find lots of these stereotypical rev-left reactions quite immature. 'All cops are pigs', etc. It's juvenile and won't get you any credit whatsoever outside of your own tendency.

Basically they uphold the law, if the law changes, they follow, that can be either a positive or a negative thing, depending on the changes. If we have a socialist society then the law would change dramatically and so will the role of the police. Same goes with the army.

[Alexios]

On the other sides i have always in mind that they're just people who are doing their jobs to feed their families. I know that there are some of them who knowingly abuse their power, but i don't think that those guys are the majority. And yeah, there's no doubt that they are useful in some situations, like protecting citizens from criminals etc. That's why i don't know how i should feel about them. Personally i think phrases like A.C.A.B are just stupid, just because you don't like a persons job, it's not a reason to hate him/her.
I try to avoid thinking in prejudices when i'm facing cops, although sometimes it's kind of hard.

This sort of thinking would be fine if revolution was just a matter of passively trying to change people's minds, rather than actively trying to topple the state. It's true that many sign up to be police just because they're trying to make a living, but that doesn't change the fact that they play a role that exists entirely to protect state and capital. The police are given an incredible amount of power and can get away with almost anything; even ancient democracies that we claim to have surpassed would have seen this as barbaric. Because of this I don't think that things like "ACAB" are off the mark. Police need to be singled out.

[Naroc]

I never doubted what you've said, and i know what has to be done in a revolution as well i only stated even though they have so much power i can't just ignore the fact that they're humans like you and me. But you are right, i guess i'm a bit too moderate about this aspect^^

Another thing is when it comes to police violence against peaceful protesters, when the police starts beating and spraying random and innocent people. In this case i forget all of my principles and positive views which i mentioned in my first post.

[Leftsolidarity]

I find lots of these stereotypical rev-left reactions quite immature. 'All cops are pigs', etc. It's juvenile and won't get you any credit whatsoever outside of your own tendency.

It is true though. All cops are pigs. It's not a descriptive answer but it's a correct one.

Basically they uphold the law, if the law changes, they follow, that can be either a positive or a negative thing, depending on the changes. If we have a socialist society then the law would change dramatically and so will the role of the police. Same goes with the army.

Yeah, not really. They aren't a neutral force solely used by the civilian government. Everything, particularly the police, is tainted by classes. The police are an arm of the capitalist state and their core purpose is to protect property relations (I'm not saying anything new here) and the status quo. The state will act to uphold those property relations no matter what reforms and laws are passed. And history has shown that the state apparatus will attack a civilian government that steps too far out of line. It's not some "their role depends on the law" situation. It's a "their role remains the same despite the law" situation.

[liberlict]

No, the police should be smashed. This doesn't mean that we barge into the police department, rename the police "the people's police" or militia or Jeff, and then let the policemen, I mean the people's policemen, carry on as before, only under a "socialist" state. It means the police are to be disbanded, and their function subsumed by a universal militia of armed citizens.

That's a nice idea, but I don't think it's very realistic. A "universal militia of armed citizens" sounds a lot more prone to abuse than the 'police' as we think of them today.

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

Law Enforcement is the enemy of the working class, period.

In the US, the police not only work as the shock troops of the bourgeoisie, they are also their own power base. In the United States we have an organization called the Fraternal Order of Police. This is the pigs' version of a labor union (though its really more of a cartel) that not only actively supports abusive cops, but has also been active in lobbying to dismantle the social safety net and increasing the size of the police state by lobbying for the REAL ID Act. They also lobbied for the passage of the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act, which basically allow all police officers and retired police officers to carry a concealed weapon regardless of State or local laws.

[liberlict]

Law Enforcement is the enemy of the working class, period.

In the US, the police not only work as the shock troops of the bourgeoisie, they are also their own power base. In the United States we have an organization called the Fraternal Order of Police. This is the pigs' version of a labor union (though its really more of a cartel) that not only actively supports abusive cops, but has also been active in lobbying to dismantle the social safety net and increasing the size of the police state by lobbying for the REAL ID Act. They also lobbied for the passage of the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act, which basically allow all police officers and retired police officers to carry a concealed weapon regardless of State or local laws.

Cool. So how does law enforcing work in a commune? Do you delegate power to worker police? Or is the community directly involved in arbitrating crime? or is the assumption that there will be no crime? I do see how the police spend pretty much all their time protecting private property, no arguments there.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I find lots of these stereotypical rev-left reactions quite immature. 'All cops are pigs', etc. It's juvenile and won't get you any credit whatsoever outside of your own tendency.

I think the workers who have had their strikes or protests broken up by the police, women who have been abused by the police for reporting a rape, national minorities who were stopped and searched for no reason, gay people who were beaten while the police stood by and watched, all of these people are likely to have a pretty fucking good understanding of why we oppose the police.

And even if this were not the case, so what? Class consciousness can't be spread by tricks; if someone conceals or ignores their socialist standpoint in order to appeal to the general population, they haven't accomplished anything.

Basically they uphold the law, if the law changes, they follow [...]

No, actually they don't. Whenever a social revolution happens, the police are one of the groups that resists the new order.

That's a nice idea, but I don't think it's very realistic. A "universal militia of armed citizens" sounds a lot more prone to abuse than the 'police' as we think of them today.

Why?